Thread: RT coverage on gay rights in Russia

As regards gay rights, I am not going to be drawn into a debate on the subject in this forum. I see no point in discussing it. I will only say that I have very close friends who are gay, and that they are not evil, or sick, or brainwashed, or whatever else people say about them. When my husband was dying in the hospital, the friend who helped me, who held me as I cried through the night, was a lesbian. She never tried to come onto me, or "turn me gay" or any of that rubbish. She was kind, compassionate and caring and she was THERE for me, which is a lot more than I can say for my own family, or for the so-called Christians, who like to sit in judgement of others but don't seem to understand that concept about "love your neighbor" as well as my gay friends do. Frankly, I do not care what other people do in their bedrooms, whether they are gay or straight, it makes no difference to me. As long as everyone is consensual and an adult, it should not be the business of the church, or the state, to intrude on their personal lives.

My primary concern about Russia's new laws, is the ambiguity of them. Simply stating that "gay propaganda" is illegal leaves things very wide open. Does it mean I can be arrested for saying something like I just said above? If so, I will not travel to Russia until things change. There are also laws now against "offending the sensibilities of religious people." I find that extremely disturbing. Sure, it's Russia's business what it does and I will not travel there to try to change things, that would never have been my purpose. But to be worried about being arrested or fined just for speaking my mind, is not a way I want to live.

And that's all I wish to say on the subject in this forum.

@ Maxmixiv: I was looking at pictures of your city, Omsk, yesterday. It looks really cool and it's not that far north of Baikonur. Do you ever watch the Soyuz launches? Just curious. I've been checking out lots of cities all over Russia.

Omsk looks cool
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Sorry, I never visited Baikonur, never heard of anyone being there, and last time I watched Soyuz starting was on TV (First channel!), about 1978-1979 I think.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Dating shows had appeared suddenly.

How 'suddenly?' Russia has tons of 'Western style' TV shows that are state-sponsored. MTV-type, reality shows and other 'popular' syndicated sitcoms. So much for the hyped 'oppression' with the law. Like I said before, it's two different messages expressed. Where's that one Russian who didn't like me saying 'Putin regime?' LOL

Wake up, guys.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's unbelievable how ignorant, arrogant and prejudiced some of the commentators on US TV sometimes are, and particularly when it comes to Russia.
It's THEIR loss, though. Who cares?
If they want to sit on the other side of the Atlantic and hate a country they never visited and don't have the true facts about.... then let them! It's particularly sad though since Russians absolutely seem prepared to give the USA and Americans a chance and some are really positive. Meanwhile Americans with very few exceptions are literally swimming in prejudice.

I care because it makes it uber study to learn anything about Russia. And it's a huge chunk of the planet that I want to know about. But the Russian newspapers and this site are helping tons.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The recent drama about gay rights in Russia is a worry though: Fingers crossed there will be no big gay pride manifestation during the Olympics and Russia overreacting. I think it would be much more dignified if Russia responded to a gay manifestation with a shake of the head and just let them do their thing. I think a lot of people just think it looks stupid and tasteless anyway, but it would be tons worse if the demonstrators were dragged off in handcuffs, and JUST the footage to fit with the prejudice.

No worries because it's the Obama administration that's doing all the over-reacting. President Putin has been really cool about stuff. We need a new President because President Obama is epic embarrassing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Isn't that magazine the the mouthpiece of the elites in the USA, essentially? Not popular on this side of the pond at all, but I've come across it.
I mean, what they are writing isn't even objectively true!
And Obama isn't quite aggressive enough in his foreign policy for the journalists at Forbes clearly!
If they want to boycott the Olympic games they'll just look like a kid who has a trauma in the supermarket when he doesn't get the sweets he wants!

Dunno. It's just a financial magazine that dad reads. I only read it because I saw that article.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Didn't they actually boycott the games in Moscow too? I was too young wouldn't have known. Or did they just say they would..?
What if every country that had a complaint against the USA had boycotted the games there? Hardly anyone apart from the UK and a few arab emirates would have turned up....

Dunno. That was before I was even born. But I googled it and yeah, the US boycotted it. They really need to keep politics out of the olympics.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Since they can't find anything seriously wrong that Russia does, they are blowing this gay thing out of ALL PROPORTIONS. Don't fall for it, Deborski and others! I mean, anyone who wants to worry about gay rights should start in the US allied Saudi Arabia, just about any gulf state or any country in Africa. All that Russia does is prevents a parade. Meanwhile in the USA plenty of people are prevented from demonstrating about other things.
And in this, I have to say that Sweden is worse than the USA. People are totally up in arms about this. I just can't relate at all, but they had 12 years of pro - gay media while I've been out of the country, so I am out of touch. They now genuinely believe this is super important. Maybe I'm getting old or something, but I honestly think they have lost all sense of proportion. Fokus på Ryssland i Prideparaden - DN.SE

Tbh, I don't see anything happening in Russia that isn't happening in the US or other countries. The only differences are that Russians are easier to talk to, the culture is different, and the food is probably different too.
There's tons of human rights violations in the US so I don't get how we can make drama about other countries. It just makes us look stupid.
Anyway, I just want to see the Sochi Olympics WITHOUT political drama.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Omsk looks cool
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Sorry, I never visited Baikonur, never heard of anyone being there, and last time I watched Soyuz starting was on TV (First channel!), about 1978-1979 I think.

zOOmg! Those look way different than the pictures I saw! Thanks for posting them.
I've never seen a launch in real life but I always find something on youtube (NASA never has any ISS launch videos). This was the launch for Expedition Crew 36 on the Soyuz TMA-08M in March. It's kinda dark but it was 2:43 am in Baikonur. It would be so cool to see that in real life!

Debs, if you want to see something really radical, in English, try PressTV. It's not necessary to be a moslem or a fan of Iran to appreciate this channel. I'm neither. They cover European news with a socialist / moslem angle, but they are not blinded by ideology. What they are reporting is definitely true -- anyone who lives in the UK can confirm that their stories from here are true. From the USA they do some really interesting investigating journalism.
But these stories are not give a second in mainstream news. I don't support their views on Israel but they've got real kickass independent documentaries about the USA and Europe. The fact that they've been banned off all the European and American satellites speaks highly of them, I think!

On RT, I really enjoy the show run by a woman called Oksana Boyko. She is 100% up to speed on whatever topic she is covering and all the male guests totally underestimate her (she's good looking and has a rather strong accent that would probably pass for sexy). She almost always come out on top on any debate, and her Conservative/Republican interviewees are totally taken to the cleaner. Definitely worth a watch as you do a bit of housework or something.

I think Max Keiser from RT is a lunatic, (or possibly an alcoholic/pothead) but his predictions about the economic future of the dollar are probably right. Apparently he's been bang on the money for the last decade.

Башорг is relevant as usual:

xxx:
Знакомый загадал загадку: "Со мной учится мальчик, у которого нет мамы, зато два папы, причем один платит алименты другому. И нет, они не геи."

xxx:
Оказалось, его мать развелась с его отцом и вышла за другого, а потом вообще свинтила в неизвестном направлении. Сын, воспитанный отчимом, с ним и остался. А родной отец поддерживает.

I notice in the coverage of this in the international press that people and even media seems to think that this is an oppressive rule that Putin is forcing on the poor Russian people... and that regular people would love to see gay parades.

Kind of silly. If they care so much about this question, they should go to Russia, stop ten regular citizens on the street and ask people whether they want gay parades!
They'd get nine no's as far as I can tell.... and even some of the gay people themselves might not see the need and value of parades.

This story is a perfect example of media in certain countries WANTING to find be able to find a story that confirms with their agenda of portraying Russia as an oppressive dictatorship. (when in reality, this particular issue probably doesn't interest people like Putin much either way).

It's also ridiculous that they complain about this in Russia, while running a story about shopping holidays to Dubai and Abu Dhabi on the next spread. Guess what would happen if you were found out to be gay there? Prison, whipping, stoning.... How come this is not interesting, while the Russian people's desire to not have gay manifestations on their streets is such a big deal...?

Swedish press is making a big issue about the "risks" of going to the Olympic in Sochi. Meanwhile they are building a weapons factory using 3000 Swedish staff in Saudi Arabia. They'd better not be gay and found out, or they'd be stoned to death. How come Russia's harmless law is worse than this...?

In many parts of Africa, they simply kill homosexual people on the spot if they are discovered. And it's not conisdered a crime. That's another thing to write about, but since it's "just" Africa, nobody cares.

I hope everyone sees the propaganda angle, and the illogical approach to this issue.

Having a gay pride parade and propagating homosexuality to underage people is NOT a human right in any sense of the world. You can live completely fulfilling life, including as a gay person without doing these things. I just don't see the problem.

I agree that the law is very badly written, but I support at least the point there it's aimed, the law is called "Ban of gay propaganda among children". Among children! There is no sanctions in it for beeing gay or discussing gay issues among adults. But please, keep children out of this. Being the father of two, I totally support the idea at least.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I notice in the coverage of this in the international press that people and even media seems to think that this is an oppressive rule that Putin is forcing on the poor Russian people... and that regular people would love to see gay parades.

Kind of silly. If they care so much about this question, they should go to Russia, stop ten regular citizens on the street and ask people whether they want gay parades!
They'd get nine no's as far as I can tell.... and even some of the gay people themselves might not see the need and value of parades.

This story is a perfect example of media in certain countries WANTING to find be able to find a story that confirms with their agenda of portraying Russia as an oppressive dictatorship. (when in reality, this particular issue probably doesn't interest people like Putin much either way).

It's also ridiculous that they complain about this in Russia, while running a story about shopping holidays to Dubai and Abu Dhabi on the next spread. Guess what would happen if you were found out to be gay there? Prison, whipping, stoning.... How come this is not interesting, while the Russian people's desire to not have gay manifestations on their streets is such a big deal...?

Swedish press is making a big issue about the "risks" of going to the Olympic in Sochi. Meanwhile they are building a weapons factory using 3000 Swedish staff in Saudi Arabia. They'd better not be gay and found out, or they'd be stoned to death. How come Russia's harmless law is worse than this...?

In many parts of Africa, they simply kill homosexual people on the spot if they are discovered. And it's not conisdered a crime. That's another thing to write about, but since it's "just" Africa, nobody cares.

I hope everyone sees the propaganda angle, and the illogical approach to this issue.

Having a gay pride parade and propagating homosexuality to underage people is NOT a human right in any sense of the world. You can live completely fulfilling life, including as a gay person without doing these things. I just don't see the problem.

As I said, I am not going to be pulled into an argument about gay rights in Russia.

However, I need to say that I do not personally know anyone who can afford to travel to Dubai, much less go shopping there! Dubai is only for the uber-wealthy, and America's uber-wealthy tend to be right wing conservatives who are opposed to gay rights as well as women's rights.

Russia is in the news now, because Russia recently enacted new laws, the timing of which is very unfortunate with the Olympic Games in Sochi just around the corner. A lot of people in the US are pushing for a boycott of the games specifically because of these new laws, and out of fear that gay athletes, tourists, or journalists might be arrested.

I myself am against a boycott. I think the Games are a perfect time for our gay athletes to perform with their heads held high, break stereotypes, and compete on equal ground for the gold. A boycott will only cause further deterioration of foreign relations, as well as destroy the dreams of US athletes who have trained all their lives and dream of going there. Gay or not, I think they should have the opportunity to compete!

But I should add that there is a LOT of animosity in the US towards Russia right now because of those new laws. In America, they are perceived as hateful and cruel, and Americans do not have a good opinion of Russia to begin with, so this has only intensified everyone's anger, and the media hyping it up doesn't help.

I myself am caught in the middle, because I frequently stand up for Russia when people call Russians "evil" or "cruel" or "hateful" etc, etc. But at the same time, I support gay rights, and some Russians hate me for that.

I can't win, but despite that I keep speaking my mind where I can.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...And in this, I have to say that Sweden is worse than the USA. People are totally up in arms about this. I just can't relate at all, but they had 12 years of pro - gay media while I've been out of the country, so I am out of touch. They now genuinely believe this is super important. Maybe I'm getting old or something, but I honestly think they have lost all sense of proportion. Fokus på Ryssland i Prideparaden - DN.SE

И Нидерланды!

Deb, I'll try to be constructive. Not meaning to confront with you, can I ask you to comment on some of my questions, please?

Originally Posted by Deborski

A lot of people in the US are pushing for a boycott of the games specifically because of these new laws, and out of fear that gay athletes, tourists, or journalists might be arrested.

What makes them think they might be arrested? I hope you have heard about the law statement (that was mentioned many times here), I mean what this law prohibits and what it does not.

You are saying "A lot of people in the US ... fear that gay athletes, tourists, or journalists might be arrested" - are those people in the US deliberately misinformed? What do you think of it? How do the local mass media interprete what is the Russian law about?

And, do you, yourself, believe the gay guests might be arrested? If yes, then why?

Originally Posted by Deborski

I myself am against a boycott. I think the Games are a perfect time for our gay athletes to perform with their heads held high, break stereotypes, and compete on equal ground for the gold. A boycott will only cause further deterioration of foreign relations, as well as destroy the dreams of US athletes who have trained all their lives and dream of going there. Gay or not, I think they should have the opportunity to compete!

Here I fully agree with you.

But there is another question to you:
How, do you think, we are supposed to know "that athlete is a gay"? Do you think a sports TV commentator would announce: "and now runs Mr N. from the United States, a gay athlete"? Is it what you mean?

This would seem as silly to me as, e.g., classifying male guests into two groups (sorry, this is a rude example, but not meaning to insult anyone - just for the sake of analogy): men who prefer urinating sitting and men who prefer urinating standing. Just imagine a commentator saying:
"Number 11 is Mr K. He is 22 years old. And yes, he likes urinating sitting".
"And number 15 is Mr. L. A famous athlete from X-land. Yes, forgot to mention it, that guy likes urinating standing!"

Can you see the analogy in my example? Do you understand why I provided it?

Originally Posted by Deborski

But at the same time, I support gay rights, and some Russians hate me for that.

I do not But here's my last question to you: What do you think their rights should be? How do you understand it? And why do you think they are oppressed in modern Russia?

Bob, I have stated before and I will state again, that I am not going to be drawn into an argument about gay rights.

I have read your comments on other threads and you clearly oppose gay rights, and you obviously feel very strongly about it and want to argue about it, judging from all the underlining and emphasizing in your comments above as well as the pejorative manner in which you are supposedly "questioning" me. Your crude "examples" do not impress me, nor shock me, nor make me in any way amiable to wanting to discuss this issue with you.

And I clearly support gay rights, and human rights, and I feel just as strongly as you do, and there is nothing you or I can say which is going to change our minds. I see no point in discussing it with you, because this will turn into a back and forth thing which will go on forever. You will post a bunch of links to support your view, and I will post a bunch of links to support my view. The anti-gay crowd will "like" your comments and the people who support gays will "like" my comments, but nothing will change, certainly not your opinion nor mine.

I have stated my opinion and I have no interest in defending it for your entertainment. You can easily google for the "answers" you seek.

These Netherlandish idiots act like kids.

By the way, there is no such a thing like "gay rights" (don't mix up with "gay nights"). There are merely "human rights", that's all. From this point of view, there is no problem with human rights in Russia in the context of so-called "gay rights". I even can't comment what kind of bullshit Stephen Fry said and wrote. He's an excellent example of that a lot of gays have obvious mental problems (Stephen Fry tried to kill himself).

Originally Posted by Deborski

Bob, I have stated before and I will state again, that I am not going to be drawn into an argument about gay rights.

Yet, you've said so three times but keep replying.

One thing Hanna said which is accurate and that is the importance placed on this issue. It's a hyped up public relations/political and propaganda-fuelled movement which accomplishes a couple of things. One, a distraction away from other crucial issues and two, it allows this distraction at home (in Russia) to give something for Mr. Pootin to pretend he's strong about issues.

Imho, the best response is to ignore the expression (if you don't like it) and not fund it whatsoever. The mistakes made in the West was to involve the State/Government and promote and fund organizations. For e.g., in schools and parades are paid for by the Government. Once the Government is funding and promoting a 'side', that is where you get your propaganda. Russia doesn't have to concern themselves with that..... um, wait.... Russian State TV (Russia 1 etc.) is showing.... ?????!?? Oh yeah, no one here is commenting on that. Instead, the same rhetoric is repeated (both sides) - so boring.

Replying is not the same thing as debating. I did not answer any of Bob's "questions" because they are not really questions. They are like digs made at me and if I reply or stand up for what I believe, then I will become a convenient target for everyone who hates gay people. I don't like having conversations when they turn into shouting matches, when people start insulting each other and calling each other names. I do not like getting into arguments where we try to make each other look like idiots, and Bob's comment was intended to trigger me. I am not going to be triggered, or led into a trap where I can become convenient fodder for everyone's anti-gay rage. I just don't have the time for it, and anyway, I am not "The Homophobe Whisperer."

Originally Posted by Deborski

Replying is not the same thing as debating. I did not answer any of Bob's "questions" because they are not really questions. They are like digs made at me and if I reply or stand up for what I believe, then I will become a convenient target for everyone who hates gay people. I don't like having conversations when they turn into shouting matches, when people start insulting each other and calling each other names. I do not like getting into arguments where we try to make each other look like idiots, and Bob's comment was intended to trigger me. I am not going to be triggered, or led into a trap where I can become convenient fodder for everyone's anti-gay rage. I just don't have the time for it, and anyway, I am not "The Homophobe Whisperer."

Okay, fair enough. But, his last post, he seems to be just asking questions. I am not sure where the 'dig at you' is.

The way I perceive it, the 'Russian perspective' (I am just using this for simplicity - I don't mean to portray or imply everyone has this perspective) is that the expression should be kept to oneself or at least not directed at minors. The Western approach is to support these special interest groups and promote 'rights' in some sort of categorization and compartmentalization so in a way, I am agreeing with one of Paul's comments. The Government encourages this and funds this trend. Of course, like all political issues, there are those within the Government that are against it or at least pretend that they are.

However, I am not sure why no one responds to my point. I am wondering why many Russians seem to accept the law regarding one type of propaganda and whether that is the best approach. Why so eager to support 'laws' like this or any kind that is directed towards expression? When will it stop or which one will be next? I might agree with their sentiments even but I don't know if Government should be providing the solution. And as I mentioned previously, the type of TV programming seems to contradict this so-called attempt at avoiding the 'spread of propaganda.' That doesn't occur to anyone (in Russia)? I guess if no one will respond to that, I'll exit the discussion, too.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Bob, I have stated before and I will state again, that I am not going to be drawn into an argument about gay rights.

I have read your comments on other threads and you clearly oppose gay rights, and you obviously feel very strongly about it and want to argue about it, judging from all the underlining and emphasizing in your comments above as well as the pejorative manner in which you are supposedly "questioning" me.

I clearly stated I did not mean to insult you in any way. I tried to propose a constructive dialogue with clarifying very specific points. You expressed your opinion in the previous post which leaves many questions which are not clear to me. What I wanted here is to clarify them "step by step". I did not only ask about your own opinion, but I also asked about the way this information is interpreted in your country.
You think I am "supposedly questioning you in a pejorative manner". I am very sorry if you take it this way.
First, I was really interested in your answers. Second, I do not see what is pejorative in my questions to you. I am afraid you did not get my intentions right.

For example, you wrote that many people in the U.S. are afraid the gay athletes can be arrested during the Olympics.
I wrote:
"What makes them think they might be arrested? I hope you have heard about the law statement (that was mentioned many times here), I mean what this law prohibits and what it does not"

What is wrong in my question? I can assume they might be deliberately miss-informed about the meaning of that law. To clarify that, I asked for your opinion:
"You are saying "A lot of people in the US ... fear that gay athletes, tourists, or journalists might be arrested" - are those people in the US deliberately misinformed? What do you think of it? How do the local mass media interpret what is the Russian law about?"

I do not see anything pejorative in these questions again.

I know that you worked in the USSR, and you know about Russia better than most of people in your country. That is why I hoped you do understand that opinion is wrong (fear that someone might be arrested).

Originally Posted by Deborski

And I clearly support gay rights, and human rights, and I feel just as strongly as you do, and there is nothing you or I can say which is going to change our minds.

I think so. You will hardly change my mind, and I will hardly change yours. But I tried at least to understand some logic in your statements. I mainly mean the situation around boycotting the games. Why they think so, and what the mass media are telling there.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I see no point in discussing it with you, because this will turn into a back and forth thing which will go on forever.

That is your right, if you choose not to answer.

Originally Posted by Deborski

You can easily google for the "answers" you seek.

I am not interested in the google opinion. What surprises me here is that the "pro-gay" crowd chose not to notice very obvious things that were mentioned a lot of times. Mainly: Why they think someone is in danger to be prosecuted in Sochi? That is taken for granted in the "pro-gay" posts, but it is as strange as assuming "2 x 2 = 5" without any explanation why.

You wrote you saw my other comments. I would like to ask another question then, but I'm afraid you can take me wrong again... So, let it be a question with no answer. "Did you ever see a post where I wrote that gays are bad, they should not exist, they should not be treated as normal people in the society etc. If yes, then where did I write it exactly?" But OK, it's a rhetorical question then. All I did is relying on logic. It still cannot get why there is any issue with their rights in the sense of this law.

I hope you understand it at least now.

I think that the people are being distracted from something more important, just like we are being distracted all the time in the US. The politicians and media know that gay rights is a controversial and hot-button topic in Russia right now, so they are just fanning the flames. My question, is what is really going on? Why are people being distracted?

The same issue is being used to distract people in the US too. People are so outraged at Russia right now, about gay rights, that they can not see anything good about Russia at all. It is impossible to discuss any other issue because it is immediately conflated with this one. For example, I said on Facebook recently that I support Putin's decision to grant asylum to Snowden. But people got angry with me for saying that because they don't understand how I can "support" Putin after he passed the anti-gay laws.

Unlike some people, I can separate the issues. I can support Putin about Snowden, and disagree with the anti-gay laws at the same time. Most people are unable to do that. They conflate the issues because their thinking is all or nothing, black and white, either/or. If Putin is against gays, then everything else he does must be wrong too. Same kind of thinking goes for Obama. Obama is either all good, or all bad. People are unable to discuss each issue separately it seems. As for me, I am very pleased with Obama for passing healthcare, but at the same time I think Obama acted like a spoiled child when he canceled the summit with Putin, and I think his pursuit of Snowden is obsessive and arrogant. Different issues.

I don't believe that all Russians support these new laws at all. The majority of Russians probably do. But some of my friends have privately told me that they are against these new laws, especially the law against "offending the sensibilities of religious people." That one is very disturbing, considering that a large percentage of Russians are atheists. So right now, gay people are the ones being persecuted and the majority supports that because the majority do not like gay people for various reasons, most of which are deeply rooted in Russian culture. But my question is, after the gays are "dealt with" who will be next? Jews? Atheists? Anyone who dares to disagree with the ROC?

Well, I don't live in Russia and far be it for me to tell Russians how to run their country. America has its own problems, and I spend the majority of my time focusing on that.

Bob, what you call a "constructive discussion" - looks to me more like a "step by step" dismantling of everything I stated, ie, a debate where you pick apart every sentence, every word, every syllable and I am supposed to eagerly do the same in return. But I don't want to. I don't want to debate it. I do not care what you believe. If you don't understand my logic, then no amount of explaining is going to get through to you and frankly I do not have the energy to explain it further.

Originally Posted by Deborski

and disagree with the anti-gay laws at the same time.

You say about "anti-gay" laws so much, but you even don't provide the point why you think it's "anti". Have you read it? Do you know what it is really?
And, of course, I don't understand why we should bother about idiots who think they may be arrested in Russia just because they are gay. There are thousands gays in Russia. Can you call me at least one person who was arrested because he is gay?