Thread: RT coverage on gay rights in Russia

Originally Posted by Paul G.

You say about "anti-gay" laws so much, but you don't provide the point why you think it's "anti". Have you read it? Do you know what it is really?
And, of course, I don't understand why we should bother about idiots who think they may be arrested in Russia just because they are gay. There are thousands gays in Russia. Can you call me at least one person who was arrested because he was gay?

That is exactly what I tried to ask already...

Paul, I reiterate, not gonna engage you in debate on this topic. Especially considering your starting platform where you assume so many bad negative things about me as a person, as regards my level of knowledge, etc. I see no point in trading insults.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

That is exactly what I tried to ask already...

Good! Then Paul can answer your "questions" satisfactorily and I assure you, his answers will please you much more than mine would.

There is nothing insulting in my questions. I just want to know you are informed properly or maybe we are talking about concocted bullshit. According to your 'answers' I make up a conclusion that you are simply an uninformed coward.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

There is nothing insulting in my questions. I just want to know you are informed properly or maybe we are talking about concocted bullshit. According to your 'answers' I make up a conclusion that you are simply an uninformed coward.

Nope, Paul. Nothing insulting about THAT, at all.

And no, you are not going to get an answer from me. Спокойной ночи, Паша!

Originally Posted by Paul G.

...According to your 'answers' I make up a conclusion that you are simply an uninformed coward.

According to some of your posts and language it's obvious that you are a longtime hardcore bully.

And this is precisely why I don't see any point in answering Paul's or Bob's questions, although Bob was a tad more polite than Paul.

I've discussed this and other subjects enough times to have developed an almost sixth sense when it comes to knowing how a particular discussion will unfold. When there are thinly veiled insults, or not-so-thinly veiled insults, in a person's comments to begin with, it seems logical to deduce that any further discussion will degrade to less subtle insults, and then open insults, flaming and general douchebaggery.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is simply not my cup of tea.

I most definitely do have strong opinions on this subject, as well as sound logic for having reached the conclusions I have. I was raised in a very strict fundamental religious sect where homosexuality was considered a sin along with just about everything else. Eating bacon, wearing cosmetics, swearing, working on the Sabbath Day, and dating outside of my church were also considered "sins." We even avoided certain kinds of crackers and marshmallows because they contained LARD! Oh the humanity!

It has taken me many, many years of hard introspection and deep meditation to work through the layers upon layers of lies I was raised with, and I credit my dear friends in the former Soviet Union (one of whom is gay) for having helped to set me on that path of self-exploration, the path of truth.

There is no way I can sum up in a short argument, among people who are less than likely to respect or understand my journey, things which it took me years to understand. You will simply come to it on your own, or not come to it. I have absolutely no interest in changing anyone else's opinion, and I have even less interest in allowing anyone to bully or intimidate me.

What a big text about nothing! Do you want to start another book with concocted facts in it? So, you admitted that you know nothing about the topic. Congratulations.

Well. I wanted to be constructive. And I wanted to clarify open questions without insulting anyone. So I suggested the form of specific questions and answers (my post RT coverage on gay rights in Russia). I clearly formulated the questions, some of them are very simple, just "yes-no" questions. None of my questions contained any personal accusation.

Some people may not like my analogies I provided to make my point clearer. I explicitely apologized for some crudity they contain. Although they did not contain any personal insult directed to any specific participant. I just HAD to provide them to show the whole topic is as obscene as my examples are.

However, some persons accused me in being "pejorative", in "attacking" them, instead of clarifying their position in a constructive manner. That's all what I got in exchange. It is like "everything you do is BAD just because it is BAD, no logic accepted".

What should I do now? I have to sum up the idea I tried to convey. And leave the discussion forever.

Summary:
1. There is no law which prosecutes gays for being a gay. It does not exist.
2. There is a law which prevents minors from being inveigled into any non-traditional sexual behavior. So, the law prohibits promotion of the non-traditional relationships to minors. That's how it is written there. It does not explicitly specify gays, lesbians and other sorts of that behavior.
3. There is absolutely no reason for any gay guest of the Olympics to be arrested or punished, if they are not involved into the activity of Item 2. Please read item 2 carefully prior to judging.
4. If there are many people in the U.S. who are seriously concerned by the possibility that some athletes, journalists etc. can be punished at the Olympics, it only means one thing: the U.S. mass media are deliberately lying to them. So, they do not explain what this law is about. Instead of telling the truth, they feed up the hysteria by calling it "anti-gay law".
5. In addition to what is stated above, there is no reasonable way how we can even know about someone's orientation. No one is going to ask anyone "Are you a gay?" That is not even supposed to happen. It is a private thing, and the majority of people here do respect private life, they are not interested in intervening it.
It is the U.S. where a public discussion of someone's pregnancy (as I heard of it) can be a norm. But here even pregnancy is not an appropriate thing to be discussed publically, not to mention someone's orientation.

No issue exists.

That's all I wanted to say. I have nothing to add more. And I am quitting this discussion now. Who wants to accept the logic, they will. Otherwise it is absolutely useless to keep arguing. No more posts will be made here ever.

But my question is, after the gays are "dealt with" who will be next? Jews? Atheists?

I bet on atheists, but being atheist I'd say, it is not the end of the world. Just sad. No one persecutes nobody (until that nobody want to take a bit money or influence)

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Yet, you've said so three times but keep replying.

One thing Hanna said which is accurate and that is the importance placed on this issue. It's a hyped up public relations/political and propaganda-fuelled movement which accomplishes a couple of things. One, a distraction away from other crucial issues and two, it allows this distraction at home (in Russia) to give something for Mr. Pootin to pretend he's strong about issues.

Imho, the best response is to ignore the expression (if you don't like it) and not fund it whatsoever. The mistakes made in the West was to involve the State/Government and promote and fund organizations. For e.g., in schools and parades are paid for by the Government. Once the Government is funding and promoting a 'side', that is where you get your propaganda. Russia doesn't have to concern themselves with that..... um, wait.... Russian State TV (Russia 1 etc.) is showing.... ?????!?? Oh yeah, no one here is commenting on that. Instead, the same rhetoric is repeated (both sides) - so boring.

I agree. But they can only push that agenda at public schools. A lot of private schools (and even some public schools) ignore the gay agenda. My school doesn't even discuss the gay lifestyle.

@ ANYONE THAT WANTS TO UNDERSTAND RUSSIAN LAWS:

What most Americans understand about the new law in Russia:
It's an anti-gay law that Putin imposes on the people and he hopes he can eliminate all the gays in Russia.
That's NOT THE TRUTH but it's what a lot of Americans are saying.

The Truth about the new law in Russia:
The law makes it illegal to promote non-traditional relations for minors. Also, it is a law that agrees with Russian culture and 74% of Russians agree with the law.
Since I plan to go to Russia someday, it's important to understand the language, the culture, and the laws.

This is a collection of information I found online about sex laws in Russia. I removed all positive/negative comments.
If there are any mistakes in the data, please let me know.

A BRIEF LOOK AT THE CURRENT RUSSIAN SEX LAWS:
The age of consent currently stands at 16 since 2003, regardless of sexual orientation.
Male homosexual acts were decriminalized in 1993, -- Female homosexual acts were never considered an issue and "Tomboy" behavior was condoned even in Tsarist Russia.
Transsexual and transgender people can change their legal gender after corresponding medical procedures since 15 November 1997.
Homosexuality was officially removed from the Russian list of mental illnesses in 1999.
Active gay males are allowed to donate blood to blood banks since 16 April 2008.
There is currently no legal recognition of same-sex couples in Russia, and same-sex marriages are not allowed. Public support for gay marriages is 16% in 2013.
Only married heterosexual couples can adopt children together, as a couple. -- Single parent homosexual adoptions were banned 3 July 2013.
Gay people can serve in the military on a par with heterosexual people since 2003. -- They can serve openly but discretion is advised for safety.
There are no laws protecting against discrimination or harassment on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE NEW LAW:
Since 2006, ten regions have enacted a ban on "propaganda of non-traditional relations among minors". As of May 2013:

Ryazan Oblast - since 22 April 2006
Arkhangelsk Oblast - since 22 October 2011
Kostroma Oblast - since 28 February 2012
Saint Petersburg - since 30 March 2012
Magadan Oblast - since 30 June 2012
Novosibirsk Oblast - since 3 July 2012
Krasnodar Krai - since 19 July 2012
Samara Oblast - since 22 July 2012
Bashkortostan - since 5 August 2012 ---- The only region where the law does not include any kind of administrative sanctions or fines.
Kaliningrad Oblast - since 19 February 2013. ---- The bill bans propaganda of non-traditional relations among the entire population, regardless of age.

In June 2012, Moscow courts enacted a hundred-year ban on gay pride parades.
On 11 June 2013 the State Duma (lower legislative house) adopted a federal law banning propaganda of non-traditional relations.
On 26 June 2013 the Federation Council of Russia (upper legislative house) voted in the new anti-propaganda law.
On 30 June 2013 President Vladimir Putin signed the bill into law. -- A bill passed by both houses of the Russian Parliament (see above).

THE INTENT OF THE LAW:

Russia’s Supreme Court upheld a controversial regional ban on “gay propaganda,” (in St. Petersburg) but said it only covers the direct promotion of homosexual relations among minors, LGBT activists said on Thursday.
Informing minors about homosexual relations is also allowed as long as the information remains neutral in tone, the court said in a ruling passed in mid-August but not publicized until this week.

Russian Supreme Court Defines ‘Gay Propaganda’ | Russia | RIA Novosti

^ The problem with this article is that the law says "non-traditional relations" NOT "homosexual relations.". But it should be easy to see that the intent of the new law is only to prevent people from PROMOTING non-traditional relations to minors. That is all.

VIOLATIONS:
On 22 July 2013 it was reported that four Dutch tourists were arrested for discussing gay rights with Russian youths. The four were arrested for spreading propaganda of nontraditional relationships among the under-aged after talking to teens at a camp in the northern city of Murmansk.

INCIDENTS:
Anti-gay violence at the gay pride parades in Russia.
Increased homophobia in Russia has led to several incidences where gay minors have been attacked by Neo-Nazi groups. -- Neo-Nazi groups are illegal under Russian law.
It should be understood that Anti-gay people and Neo-Nazis exist in almost every country. Violence against gay people is world-wide, not just in Russia. It has even been "swept under the rug" by authorities in America - even recently. I can provide news links for those incidents too.

MY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE SOCHI OLYMPICS:
Unless somebody goes to the Olympics to promote non-traditional relations to underage kids then nobody will be arrested. My advice is to go to the Olympics to watch the Olympics and have fun - not push agendas. Oh, and try to show some gratitude and respect to the country that is hosting the games - Russia.
And let the kids have fun at the games too - without adults pushing sex agendas at them.
Also, those Dutch adults had no right to talk to underage kids about sex. That right belongs to the parents and the schools.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

What a big text about nothing! Do you want to start another book with concocted facts in it? So, you admitted that you know nothing about the topic. Congratulations.

Again, I reiterate, what point is there in me talking about anything with any of you? Paul's last comment sums up the kind of hostility I am facing here. He attacks me, insults me, claims my story is "made up." Feel free to read my story if you want to know more about me. It's posted in the blog section. It isn't "made up" - why would I go to the trouble of writing 40 chapters of "made up" stuff? But if people are already hostile and attacking me, then of course it follows suit that they are going to disparage anything and everything I say, attack my character and my person, and then call me the "liar." None of this surprises me in the least. It's just all the more reason that I have no desire whatsoever to share my opinions with you.

I get that all of you posting here hate gay people. But why focus that hostility on me? Why bully and push and press me when I have stated multiple times now, that I have no wish to discuss it with you? I am not interested in trading insults with people who hate gays, and hate me simply because I support gay rights.

I am bowing out of this thread. And I have no doubt that Paul and others will make a few nasty, snarky comments about me after I go. Have at it, if that makes you feel better about yourselves. But in reality, it says more about you than it says about me.

Now, be sure to like each others' comments, pat each other on the back, and feel like you are such great guys because you put me "in my place." Just as effectively as the pigeon in the example above.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I agree. But they can only push that agenda at public schools. A lot of private schools (and even some public schools) ignore the gay agenda. My school doesn't even discuss the gay lifestyle.

Good post. It seems that the violence and expressed hostility is only a fraction of the population but the mainstream media makes it sound like there's a hostile agenda against that part of the population. Like I said, it is political spin and there's two points here: 1) exaggerated and manipulated political spin and 2) the contradictory position from the Russian government.

Btw, I think those two pictures were beauties to sum up this political forum. The left-wingers always look for strawmen and really can't discuss political issues rationally.

I don't think having 'propaganda' laws are the right approach but it's up to Russians to decide. I just hope Russians don't blame the citizens of other countries when the Governments of those countries speak out against Russia. For instance, Canada's politicians are doing a lot of lecturing right now so I can assure Russians that these clowns are a problem there.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Again, I reiterate, what point is there in me talking about anything with any of you? Paul's last comment sums up the kind of hostility I am facing here. He attacks me, insults me, claims my story is "made up." Feel free to read my story if you want to know more about me. It's posted in the blog section. It isn't "made up" - why would I go to the trouble of writing 40 chapters of "made up" stuff? But if people are already hostile and attacking me, then of course it follows suit that they are going to disparage anything and everything I say, attack my character and my person, and then call me the "liar." None of this surprises me in the least. It's just all the more reason that I have no desire whatsoever to share my opinions with you.

I get that all of you posting here hate gay people. But why focus that hostility on me? Why bully and push and press me when I have stated multiple times now, that I have no wish to discuss it with you? I am not interested in trading insults with people who hate gays, and hate me simply because I support gay rights.

I am bowing out of this thread. And I have no doubt that Paul and others will make a few nasty, snarky comments about me after I go. Have at it, if that makes you feel better about yourselves. But in reality, it says more about you than it says about me.

Now, be sure to like each others' comments, pat each other on the back, and feel like you are such great guys because you put me "in my place." Just as effectively as the pigeon in the example above.

Закроем эту грустную тему на время. Деббочка, спасибо тебе за твою доброту и нескончаемое терпение.