Thread: Controversial Problems in Russian and Some Other Societies

Originally Posted by Lampada

You might be right, I guess. I seldom have enough time or interest to read everything closely.
But, please, everybody stay calm and, please, refrain from personal insults.
As always, most all personal ideological positions is excepted here.

"....is *accepted* here?"

Fair enough. I don't mean to but to show where the thinking is flawed. If it's a good argument but totally politically opposed from my perspective, I invite it.

I don't share the theme that the law is 'just' per se but the reactions of people are totally illogical. If anyone wants to dispute the law, the Russian people should do so on their own. It's perfectly reasonable, imho, for an 'outsider' to assert a perspective if you disagree (I do it a lot - lol) but special interest groups who are using intimidation methods, not to mention, based on completely illogical grounds, is wrong. Also, I think I am proven correct stating it's a political ploy so the people who support or accept the law will only have their positions reinforced by those actions.

Originally Posted by Hanna

One thing that is very irritating nowadays if you open a socialist paper, they won't write about social justice, anti-imperialism, better housing for workers and that kind of stuff.

Instead they spend most of the paper banging on about GAY rights, feminism and anti-rasism. The three big socially correct issues at the moment. The whole movement for social justice has been literally hijacked by these issues! Meanwhile the social safety net for the middle class and working class is disintegrating. I wish they left wing politicians would let the homosexuals take care of themselves and focus on the real issue that concerns normal people.....

It is a fragmentation technique. And for distraction/misdirection. Both right and left wings have fragmentation techniques imposed on them. This is so that no effective inhibition of special interest agendas can operate. If you look at right wing press you will see fragmentation issues also, but they are different than the left wing fragmentations. It would be pretty easy to come up with a book "The Manufacture of Dysfunction" about what is going on, and who wins from all this, and who loses. Try this book, it tells something about some of the distortions going on:
Economists and the Powerful: Convenient Theories, Distorted Facts, Ample Rewards by Norbert Häring and Niall Douglas

Originally Posted by 14Russian

The one example I refer to is Stolichnaya (Stoli) vodka. The LGBT community is calling up bars and pubs and demanding that they don't serve Stoli vodka. No reason except that it is Russian and a Russian* company

That's a good thing
I'd propose to ban Stolichnaya everywhere, because people drink that cheap crap and call it Russian vodka, while in reality it's not Russian anymore, this vodka brand sold outside of Russia is produced in the USA and Latvia
Ignorance is bliss

Originally Posted by Lampada

Hanna, is it really you? I am lost... Could it be that somebody's kidnapped your nickname?

No, no it's still me. And I don't hate gay people, and I don't wish anything bad on them at all.

I just don't like the way it's going in Northern Europe at the moment, where homosexuality is almost promoted.
I don't think anyone can imagine how extreme it is, until you see it yourself.

Gay parades, gay nights at clubs and restaurants.
You turn on TV and on one channel a gay program hosts is interviewing a transvestite. On the next channel, a film about a teenager discovering they are gay and having softcore gay sex. Open a paper, and there's a story where yet another celebrity explains how fulfilled and happy they are as gay
This is the reality in Sweden and the UK is moving fast in that direction.

I am just too socially conservative, and it's a religious thing as well.

All I'm saying is that people should be more private about their sexuality. Not just gays, everybody!

I am just as much against heterosexual pornography which I think is offensive too, towards us women, and it turns men into pathetic slaves of their lusts. I'm just as much against that.

I am strongly against anybody persecuting gay people. But I'm also against the gay lifestyle being constantly flaunted to people like me who don't want to know.

Am I a horrible person because I don't want this outside my window like I had last year...

Originally Posted by Doomer

That's a good thing
I'd propose to ban Stolichnaya everywhere, because people drink that cheap crap and call it Russian vodka, while in reality it's not Russian anymore, this vodka brand sold outside of Russia is produced in the USA and Latvia
Ignorance is bliss

Since they don't even know what they're drinking, I'll post this: DO NOT BOYCOT Spirits of the Tsars because that's distilled in Ukraine not Russia.
So they can cry and boycot vodka. Sounds really boring. As for me, I'll boycot nothing and just party!

Anyway, it's what I said in another post: Russian problems are for the people in Russia to decide about. They're the ones that have to live with the decision, not the rest of the world.

I agree. If will be as little as possible information on same-sex marriages or gay parades, this anomaly will go away by itself. Any idea need to cultivate otherwise there will be no result.

I don't think anyone can imagine how extreme it is, until you see it yourself.

Мдаа, далеко у вас всё зашло... У нас они тоже телевидение оккупировали, но пока песенки поют

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Мдаа, далеко у вас всё зашло... У нас они тоже телевидение оккупировали, но пока песенки поют

Interesting. This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin). Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.

For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government. There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.

More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.

Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Interesting. This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin). Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.

For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government. There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.

More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.

Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Russia's got state TV like any other European country? So they are not radically against the government? What a surprise. Who cares? Nowadays there are plenty of commercial junk alternatives for those who prefer that flavour of TV.

Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else? In fact, you just need to read the comments here, to see that Russians are more cynical and pragmatic about politics than most people, and they certainly don't trust what they hear on TV. They have access to the same media and junk entertainment as anyone else. YOU are the one who is brainwashed if you don't realise that, and your comments are insulting to the "hosts" of the site, who are here to help people learn their language. So peg it down a notch or two would you.

Leave it to the Russians to complain about Putin! You don't have to live in a country run by Putin & co, so why should you care?

In fact, we are seeing a much wider spread in political and social views from the Russians and Ukrainians visiting the forum, than any other groups. Regular Russian visitors here include Pro West/USA fans, communists, anarchists, conservatives and plenty of other alternatives.
How does that tie in with your brainwashing? I'd say it's completely fictional.

Either way, who cares? It's their country and they can be as brainwashed as they like. It's not like Russians don't know how to overthrow a leader when they get enough, like they did, twice in the last century. Anyway; my impression is that they are LESS brainwashed than the average European or American.


EDIT: Further reason why Russia is sounder: We've got freakin' internet censorship in the UK!! In Russia people can do whatever they like online. And it's getting worse here every day.
There are about 10 sites I regularly visit that are now blocked. Apparently porn will also shortly be banned. Doesn't bother me personally, I hate porn. But what will be next? RT.com perhaps? Far too radical.

In fact, PRESSTV is BANNED in the EU! They are not allowed to broadcast on any satellite over Europe. Nobody can watch this TV channel. To my knowledge there is no banned TV station in Russia, anyone can broadcast what they like in Russian language via satellite. So who is the victim of censorship?!

Mark my word: There be MORE political asylum seekers from the West, to Russia. Seriously.

Anyone who uses the phrase “Putin regime” — or he don't know what saying, or he is a big scoundrel.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Anyone who uses the phrase “Putin regime” — or he don't know what saying, or he is a big scoundrel.

I think you know what I meant (if you understood the points in the post). As for the other reply, it gave me a good laugh.

"Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else?" Blah, blah, blah. Stick to the topic. Your debating and discussion skills are awful. I made the distinction between the law and the political platform and what they do with TV programming. Any sensible person could make the distinction. So, stop inventing strawmen and going on a pointless rant. Thanks.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I think you know what I meant (if you understood the points in the post). As for the other reply, it gave me a good laugh.

"Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else?" Blah, blah, blah. Stick to the topic. Your debating and discussion skills are awful. I made the distinction between the law and the political platform and what they do with TV programming. Any sensible person could make the distinction. So, stop inventing strawmen and going on a pointless rant. Thanks.

If you don't want responses to your comments in a debate forum, then refrain from commenting...

And speaking about "poor debating techniques" (who made you the appointed judge of that anyway?) :
Avoiding the topic or the question and launching a personal attack against the opponent is usually considered about as cheap as you can get on that front!

It would also be interesting to hear what you base your "superior knowledge" about Russia on?
You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.

Why don't you let the Russians be the judge of their own country and try to learn something, instead of telling the Russians what their country is like, according to YOU?

Originally Posted by Hanna

If you don't want responses to your comments in a debate forum, then refrain from commenting...

And speaking about "poor debating techniques" (who made you the appointed judge of that anyway?) :
Avoiding the topic or the question and launching a personal attack against the opponent is usually considered about as cheap as you can get on that front!

It would also be interesting to hear what you base your "superior knowledge" about Russia on?
You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.

Why don't you let the Russians be the judge of their own country and try to learn something, instead of telling the Russians what their country is like, according to YOU?

So, you still can't stick to the topic. Shame, shame....

The point is made. Russians can comment on it. I cannot help it if you cannot understand.

You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.

Just as much as the one who said that is Swedish.

Anyone interested in my posts in Swedish can find them in the Scandinavian section where they belong.

Originally Posted by Hanna

So Russia's got state TV like any other European country? So they are not radically against the government? What a surprise. Who cares? Nowadays there are plenty of commercial junk alternatives for those who prefer that flavour of TV.

Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies.
And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities

But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

Originally Posted by Doomer

Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies.
And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities

But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

Ok, but there are no TV channels "owned by opposition" in Europe either! The whole point is that only the establishment and the state can afford to run a TV station.

There is state TV, and commercial TV. Both have essentially the same agenda but state TV tends to be more serious and commercial TV more "entertainment" oriented, and with ads.

There was one alternative cable TV channel broadcasting across Europe, challenging status quo in the UK and siding with the "little guy". They got banned off every single European satellite and the channel is no longer available on TV.

I can no more switch on the TV and expect to see somebody challenging the validity of the government in the UK than anyone in Russia can.
I think the accusation that media in Russia is censored is exaggerated.

Besides, this is not the Cold War era. There is the internet, Radio Liberty and any number of satellite channels for anyone in Russia who wants an alternative view.

Interestingly enough the most alternative English speaking channel right now, is RT (other than PressTV before it got banned - they still broadcast online though).

Originally Posted by Doomer

Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies.
And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities

But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

Doomer, looks like your information about current state of things in Russia is a bit outdated. From my experience, like 70-80% of households in Russia have at least 40-50 TV channels (satellite or cable) and only 6 of them are directly controlled by Federal goverment. I visited a small town Omutninsk in Kirov (Vyatka) region this year (it's my mother's native town) and every house there has a satellite TV plate, it's in the tiny town located in the middle of nowhere, i'm not talking about central parts of the country. Also most newspapers, radio stations and internet are not controlled at all. As for most Russians being sceptical about state propaganda you are right. No one I know don't take political programms and news at federal TV seriously because they look like this (sorry for non appropriate lexics at the picture):

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Interesting. This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin). Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.
For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government. There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.
More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.
Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is very interesting since the Moscow Duma was the one that was refusing to pass anti-gay legislation.
Boris Moiseev | The Disorder Of Things
Russia: Moscow region rejects anti-gay bill / Russia / Country-by-country / Guide to Europe / Home / ilga - ILGA Europe

Also, it's easy to just say "State Owned" or "Government Controlled". But the truth is that the Dumas contain hundreds of deputies - each one having his own views - and legislation has to be passed with a vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma
Russian parliament passes bill that imposes fines for gay pride rallies, info sharing | Fox News

I do think the 436-0 vote is a little suspicious but I'm also kinda suprised to learn that the regional Moscow Duma was so much more opposed to the anti-gay bill.
It just looks like the Moscow Duma was supporting the "gay" TV programming while the Russian Parliament was not. A political split.
Now I'm curious. How much do decisions in regional Dumas affect what happens in the Russian Parliament?

Originally Posted by Deborski

... Russia is not a good place right now to be gay.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

And will not.

God has Spoken!