Thread: Controversial Problems in Russian and Some Other Societies

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Yeah, I don't like seeing people getting hurt but sex is a private thing and there's no reason to have it in a parade.



Okay, I didn't write that very well.
"Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades." -- That's what grandad said. I was just repeating it.
"We never go to those or even watch them." -- My parents never take me to gay parades. That's not a topic they even want to discuss. But I'm not gay so that's cool.

Gay bashing is just wrong in so many ways! I've heard that happens in public schools too but I've never seen it because I'm in home-school and it never happens here.
And no, I don't have the right to tell anyone what to believe. Religion is personal. People have to decide what they believe about life.
Me? I'm a Christian and I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and that there were dinosaurs and there could be people living on exoplanets in space somewhere. Grandad is a Christian too but he has a different way of believing.

About President Putin. I already said in my first post that no country is perfect. So he's not perfect but I think he's doing a good job... better than President Obama. My little brother could do a better job than Obama.

Fair enough!
I haven't met your little brother though, so I will have to reserve judgement. There are many things I like about Obama, and many things I don't like. I prefer him over George W. Bush, certainly, but he is not exactly Abraham Lincoln either.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Doomer, we are never going to agree on this subject, and that is fine with me. But you live in the US now, not Russia, so surely you have had to do some thinking about this subject.

Well, about "born this way" stuff
Vision of two kissing men makes me sick and I want to puke
I'm fine with two kissing women though
IDK what good old Freud would make out of this but I guess "I'm born this way" and I don't want to see "vision of two kissing men" in real life, so I would always be against of that kind of "social activity", these things I'm sure of and they are plain and simple for me, the rest is propaganda of different kinds

Originally Posted by Doomer

Well, about "born this way" stuff
Vision of two kissing men makes me sick and I want to puke
I'm fine with two kissing women though
IDK what good old Freud would make out of this but I guess "I'm born this way" and I don't want to see "vision of two kissing men" in real life, so I would always be against of that kind of "social activity", these things I'm sure of and they are plain and simple for me, the rest is propaganda of different kinds

I was taught to think that way too.
But I learned, over the years, that it isn't that simple.
Like I said, I have many friends who are gay and lesbian. No one would CHOOSE to go through the hell they lived through. Many of them are shunned by their families. They have very hard, very tragic lives.
But you don't have to understand them or even agree with me about this. What I object to, is people who actively support violence against others because they are gay.

gay parades create violence, at least in Russia. And gay parades participants are well aware of that fact, so it seems that they get what they wanted

Originally Posted by Doomer

gay parades create violence, at least in Russia. And gay parades participants are well aware of that fact, so it seems that they get what they wanted

Like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Deborski

If you're afraid that gays will become Nazis... I'm afraid all I can do is laugh!

Ah, really?

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Ah, really?

LOL... Paul, I think this is what some people are afraid of:

That's like blaming theft on people with possessions. Gay pride doesn't cause violence, what causes violence is the state telling thick bigotted troglodyte scum that they may attack a minority with impunity.

Originally Posted by scotcher

That's like blaming theft on people with possessions. Gay pride doesn't cause violence, what causes violence is the state telling thick bigotted troglodyte scum that they may attack a minority with impunity.

You are wrong on the root of the problem
The state doesn't want any kind of violence but violence still happens and something should be done about it.
Russian officials trying to pass a law that would forbid any gay propaganda (which includes gay parades), that should solve a problem with public violence at least for now, obviously it won't solve the hidden part of the problem
After that different approaches might be taken: one of them is to create more tolerance in social majority which seems to be very hard right now

BTW "gay pride" is the US creation which is among other things (like "American democracy", for example) seems to be actively propagated in the whole world by the US, sometimes even by force. There is no unified opinion that this is a good thing

"gay pride" is not the only "pride" in the US and the whole "pride" term is heavily overused in the US right now, especially by ignorant and stupid people it also became a coping mechanism to justify the means of some questionable actions, to give you an example:

we have a black thug and a white thug
so when police arrests both and says these guys are thugs two things may happen:
1. everybody novadays speculates on police brutality, this speculation became a coping mechanism for some outlaws when they try to reach out to press to play on this "socially sensitive" subject
2. there is no doubt gonna be a question: is this black guy called a thug because he's a thug or because he's black? This is also "socially sensitive" subject and also a coping mechanism for some black thugs
3. "gay rights" is another social hysteria right now and it's fresh from the oven, mass media "писают кипятком" when they have something to brag about on this subject

I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

And parades of "whistleblowers" led by Mr. Snowden. They can have "I'm leaking and I'm proud" as their motto

I don't like that people get bashed but I looked at this article again. There are some serious problems.
36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See

31. Meanwhile, Russian lawmakers passed a bill barring same-sex foreign couples from adopting Russian children.
The author is using the gay bashing to support letting gay Americans adopt Russian kids. That's way wrong! Russia is protecting those kids and they should protect them!
Gay couple accused of sexually abusing adopted Russian boy for years — RT News
Another adopted Russian boy beaten to death in US — RT USA

I support the ban on USA adoptions of Russian kids 100%.
I also support the Russian Gay Progaganda law. There is no reason to parade again if they already know what happens when they do that.

Anyway, all those things are Russian issues for Russia to decide about and the rest of the world should not interfere. Our country already interferes way too much and it doesn't help anybody except America.
I don't get why any country wants to be like America. Tons of horrible things are happening in our country.

Back to Snowden. Yeah, we had a huge cookout at the lake today and I didn't see the news till we got home. So, Snowden will still have to wait longer. But he stayed there that long and didn't have to change his clothes? That's freedom!

31. Meanwhile, Russian lawmakers passed a bill barring same-sex foreign couples from adopting Russian children.
The author is using the gay bashing to support letting gay Americans adopt Russian kids. That's way wrong! Russia is protecting those kids and they should protect them!
Gay couple accused of sexually abusing adopted Russian boy for years — RT News
Another adopted Russian boy beaten to death in US — RT USA

I support the ban on USA adoptions of Russian kids 100%.
I also support the Russian Gay Progaganda law. There is no reason to parade again if they already know what happens when they do that.

Anyway, all those things are Russian issues for Russia to decide about and the rest of the world should not interfere. Our country already interferes way too much and it doesn't help anybody except America.
I don't get why any country wants to be like America. Tons of horrible things are happening in our country.

Back to Snowden. Yeah, we had a huge cookout at the lake today and I didn't see the news till we got home. So, Snowden will still have to wait longer. But he stayed there that long and didn't have to change his clothes? That's freedom!

It isn't just gay parents who abuse kids in the United States. There was a Russian boy adopted by right wing Christian parents as well. They didn't like him, so they sent him home to Moscow on a plane, all by himself. The issue of adopting Russian kids is a complex one, but it's unfair to target ONLY gay parents. In my personal experience, some of the kids from gay families (and yeah, I happen to know some) turned out better adjusted than some of the kids from extremely religious homes, which believe in things like "spare the rod and spoil the child" (ie, beat your child to drive out the "spirit of satan"). You can argue that with me if you want, but my uncle was a televangelist, I was raised in a strict religious home, and I can tell you some personal stories about Christian, heterosexual families that would freak you completely out.

Regarding the "gay propaganda" laws - I'm sorry you support laws which make it a crime for gay couples to kiss in public, or for anyone to even discuss the issue of gay rights. All this is doing is forcing the issue underground again, rather than making any significant change. Sweeping things under the rug is never a real solution. Things will only fester and get worse, and more people will be beaten, or drink themselves to death (like my gay friend in Peterburg is doing) or perhaps worse - PRETEND to be "straight," get married, have a family, and then cheat on them with anonymous gay strangers, like right wing, Christian politicians in the US are caught doing on an almost daily basis.

It isn't about anyone interfering. I'm not going to fly to Russia tomorrow and hand out rainbow flags to anyone. But I certainly do not actively SUPPORT state-sponsored suppression of minorities, nor do I support it when a blind eye is turned to the people who beat, maim or kill others just because their sexuality makes others uncomfortable.

America has plenty of its own problems. You are welcome to read my posts on this site and you will see me detail what they are just as passionately as I am talking about this. But gay rights, women's rights, civil rights - those are important issues which will continually need to be fought for. I will fight the good fight in America. As far as Russia goes, if I am going to be arrested in Russia for saying any of the things I said here (and one Dutch couple already WAS arrested for speaking out in favor of gay rights while visiting Russia), then I will not be going to Russia any time soon. I have very good friends who are gay. They stood by me when the self-righteous, judgmental and mean-spirited, abusive Christian people did not.

I cry for my friend in St. Petersburg, who is forced to live in a closet and cannot be who he was born to be. And I cry for all the others like him, in Russia and every other country where they suffer.

A few more facts regarding what science tells us (rather than what religious preachers tell us) about gay adoptive parents:

Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents | Gays, Lesbians & Same-Sex Marriage | Advantages of Gay Parenting & Gay Adoption | LiveScience

From this article:

Gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," said Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting. Gays and lesbians rarely become parents by accident, compared with an almost 50 percent accidental pregnancy rate among heterosexuals, Goldberg said. "That translates to greater commitment on average and more involvement."

And while research indicates that kids of gay parents show few differences in achievement, mental health, social functioning and other measures, these kids may have the advantage of open-mindedness, tolerance and role models for equitable relationships, according to some research. Not only that, but gays and lesbians are likely to provide homes for difficult-to-place children in the foster system, studies show. (Of course, this isn't to say that heterosexual parents can't bring these same qualities to the parenting table.)

Gay adoption recently caused controversy in Illinois, where Catholic Charities adoption services decided in November to cease offering services because the state refused funding unless the groups agreed not to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Rather than comply, Catholic Charities closed up shop.

Catholic opposition aside, research suggests that gay and lesbian parents are actually a powerful resource for kids in need of adoption. According to a 2007 report by the Williams Institute and the Urban Institute, 65,000 kids were living with adoptive gay parents between 2000 and 2002, with another 14,000 in foster homes headed by gays and lesbians. (There are currently more than 100,000 kids in foster care in the U.S.)

An October 2011 report by Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that, of gay and lesbian adoptions at more than 300 agencies, 10 percent of the kids placed were older than 6 — typically a very difficult age to adopt out. About 25 percent were older than 3. Sixty percent of gay and lesbian couples adopted across races, which is important given that minority children in the foster system tend to linger. More than half of the kids adopted by gays and lesbians had special needs.

As regards the safety of Christian families, there are frequent cases - much TOO frequent - of children being allowed to DIE because of their parents' religious beliefs.

Here is just one recent case where that happened, but you can do a google search and find hundreds more. It happened in the Church I grew up in also.



From this article:

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.

***


Not only did this happen one time, with these specific parents, but TWICE. That is how forgiving the justice system is of people's religious beliefs. They did not believe in going to a doctor, and because of that, now two children are dead. But they are RELIGIOUS, so people want to sweep it under the rug, ignore it, and pretend it didn't happen. Maybe they should be allowed to kill a THIRD child for the sake of their precious religious beliefs? What do you think?

And that doesn't even begin to delve into all the other abuse which exists in religious families. Psychological, physical, emotional, often sexual abuse is RAMPANT among right-wing Christian homes, primarily because they sweep things under the rug, keep the silence, and refuse to deal honestly and openly with the issues.

If that is not enough to make someone stop and think, then I highly recommend watching this movie:



This is EXACTLY the kind of brainwashing which happens in Christian camps for kids all across the United States.

So why is it that GAY parents are being focused on with Russia's new law? The majority of abuse occurs in religious homes. That is documented, studied and well known despite the best efforts of Christian groups to deny it. If Russia wants to bar adoption of children to American homes because of rampant abuse which goes on in the supposedly "upstanding members of society" I can certainly understand that, because it is widespread, it is ugly and you can bet it is REAL.

Originally Posted by Deborski

The issue of adopting Russian kids is a complex one, but it's unfair to target ONLY gay parents.

It is also unfair to left out gay parents on these issues in favor of your believes. Especially when we are talking about abusing children

Originally Posted by Deborski

Regarding the "gay propaganda" laws - I'm sorry you support laws which make it a crime for gay couples to kiss in public, or for anyone to even discuss the issue of gay rights.
...
It isn't about anyone interfering. I'm not going to fly to Russia tomorrow and hand out rainbow flags to anyone. But I certainly do not actively SUPPORT state-sponsored suppression of minorities, nor do I support it when a blind eye is turned to the people who beat, maim or kill others just because their sexuality makes them uncomfortable.
....
As far as Russia goes, if I am going to be arrested in Russia for saying any of the things I said here (and one Dutch couple already WAS arrested for speaking out in favor of gay rights while visiting Russia), then I will not be going to Russia any time soon.

The proposed law suggests a $300 fine for offenders. I'm not sure why you implying criminal charges here. Maybe because $300 fine wouldn't show the supporters as martyrs?

I don't know why majority need step on their throats in the meaning "of born this way" in favor of minorities
I'm born the way that I don't like to see two men kissing why should I be silent about it in favor of their sexual orientation?

Hypocrisy already consumed minds of many Americans, I don't see it as a good thing

Originally Posted by Doomer

It is also unfair to left out gay parents on these issues in favor of your believes. Especially when we are talking about abusing children

The proposed law suggests a $300 fine for offenders. I'm not sure why you implying criminal charges here. Maybe because $300 fine wouldn't show the supporters as martyrs?

I don't know why majority need step on their throats in the meaning "of born this way" in favor of minorities
I'm born the way that I don't like to see two men kissing why should I be silent about it in favor of their sexual orientation?

Hypocrisy already consumed minds of many Americans, I don't see it as a good thing

Well, Doomer, I'm not sure how much money you think I have, but I frequently am outspoken, and given the fact that I am not going to SHUT UP or supress my opinions, I don't plan on going to Russia and shelling out $300 every time I say that I believe gays should be allowed to exist.

As for your rights? You have a right not to go to gay parades if you don't like them. You have a right not to be gay. It's really that simple.

The hypocrisy is certainly there. And you don't even see how glaringly obvious it is in your own words, because you are so busy trying to point it out in mine.

Regarding "stepping on people's throats"... interesting you should bring that up, since that is exactly what the gay-bashers did at the last gay pride parade in St. Petersburg. They stepped on people's throats, punched them, beat them, attacked them, whipped them, and the police allowed it all to happen.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Well, Doomer, I'm not sure how much money you think I have, but I frequently am outspoken, and given the fact that I am not going to SHUT UP or supress my opinions, I don't plan on going to Russia and shelling out $300 every time I say that I believe gays should be allowed to exist.

So we are back to Bruce Willis with "I hate niggers" sign in the middle of Harlem.
Your post also shows the whole "American pride" thing so well. "I'm proud of my believes so much that I'm gonna brag about it"

Originally Posted by Deborski

As for your rights? You have a right not to go to gay parades if you don't like them. You have a right not to be gay. It's really that simple.

We all well know that gay parades is the beginning, then comes marriage, social acceptance, and then gays will becomes another "blacks" when you cannot say anything opposing them without having society bathing you in shit

I just remembered watching CNN one day the topic was "the N word again". They were verbally beating up a political person, a women, who, if I'm not mistaken "said the N word 15 years ago". CNN was asking that women is to resign immediately
I mean the whole hypocrisy of this is just mind blowing: America is a free country, you have a right to express your thoughts. Yeah, riiiight. This whole thing smells like a big pile of BS

Originally Posted by Doomer

So we are back to Bruce Willis with "I hate niggers" sign in the middle of Harlem.
Your post also shows the whole "American pride" thing so well. "I'm proud of my believes so much that I'm gonna brag about it"


We all well know that gay parades is the beginning, then comes marriage, social acceptance, and then gays will becomes another "blacks" when you cannot say anything opposing them without having society bathing you in shit

It isn't American pride at all! LOL You know better too. You have seen me say many negative things about my country. But on the issue of gay rights, I stand by it.

Not sure what you mean about "bathing in shit." I have black friends. I also know black people who are assholes. I don't shy from telling them all what I think. But the good thing about America - at least for the time being - is that I won't be fined $300 each time I speak my mind.

I am really sad that everything is "us and them" with your statement. What is so bad about society ACCEPTING black people, gay people, or Russian people? I don't care if people are gay, straight, black, white, male, female or purple with pink polka dots. If they are nice to me, I will be nice to them.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

Go ahead and start one, Eric! It makes no difference to me. You have the right. Go for it. LOL