Thread: Статус женщины в России

Originally Posted by starrysky

I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants. It's skinheads who do complain, or rather, beat up innocent foreigners to death, and they usually don't yet have any children and don't understand the true meaning of words such as love, family, and peace, because they've barely left puberty age.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Татьяна Голикова: "Пора вернуть мужчинам роль главы рода".

Думаете вы, что мужчина с ответсвенностью, например глава рода, чаще - честный гражданин?

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Думаете вы, что мужчина с ответсвенностью, например глава рода, чаще - честный гражданин?

Я думаю, что нормальные люди становятся умнее и мудрее с годами, и начинают больше ценить жизнь -- свою и чужую. Товарищи скинхеды, конечно, вряд ли когда поумнеют.

Скинхед ли - мэр Москвы, Юрий Лужков?

http://www.legalvizit.ru/02122007.htm

Это совершенно нормально, стремиться сделать так, чтобы дворниками в наших дворах и рабочими на стройках были бы жители Москвы или подмосковья вместо граждан солнечного Таджикистана. Зарплата дворника по документам составляет около 25 000 рублей в месяц. Я уверена в Москве найдутся студенты, которые взялись бы выполнить эту работу за такие деньги. Что касается строек, конечно, эксплуатировать нелегальных мигрантов легче. Но и Путин В.В., и Медведев Д.А., и Лужков Ю.М. - настаивают на "...цивилизованных отношениях в сфере трудовой миграции..." А всякий порядок начинается только с четкого учета ресурсов.

It is a normal tendention to give an opportunity for inhabitants of Moscow and of its neighborhood to be workers in Moscow instead of illegal migrants (for example Tajikistan migrants). An official wage of a yardman is about 25 000 rubles a month. I'm sure that there is some students in Moscow that agree to do job like that for this sum of money.
Regarding building. It is obvious that to force any illegal migrants to work more is easier. But Putin, Medvedev, Luzhkov insist on "...a legal character of labour migration", and every civilization/well ordered life starts from precise accounting of resources. I don't know what author of http://www.legalvizit.ru/02122007.htm meant while he/she was writing it, but the result is too emotional. It cannot be considered like a serious text.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Это совершенно нормально, стремиться сделать так, чтобы дворниками в наших дворах и рабочими на стройках были бы жители Москвы или подмосковья вместо граждан солнечного Таджикистана.

Больше людей нуждается в России.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

I hope never to see the day when Mother Russia becomes страна бабушек, but experts say it's heading in that direction.

Originally Posted by starrysky

I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants.

Нашёл одну.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Больше людей нуждается в России.

Ха-ха-ха!... А я, может, хочу в Великобритании жить! Так меня туда не то, что жить, меня даже в качестве туристки туда не пустят.

LET'S TAKL ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEMS IN THE UK!!!

(Or maybe Russians who don't have as much money as Berezovsky are not humans for you Brits?)

Вот аргумерты за и против миграции: http://www.izvestia.ru/russia/article3135943/

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Больше людей нуждается в России.

What did you mean? You phrase says that "More people (?than it had been before? This part may be added for context of the articles you had given in the links) need Russia." Are you sure in it?

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Originally Posted by starrysky

I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants.

Нашёл одну.

Do you mean Russia that has the name which is female gender? It is very original! Don't forget that the USA, Britain, France, German, Belgium, Spain and.. the whole Europe can be described like that as well.

And one modest addition. The illegual migration problem exists in the USA. BTW, the fact was mentoined in the article that you wrote down here http://www.izvestia.ru/russia/article3135943/.

А, например, в США дифференцируют подход - пуэрториканская преступность, колумбийская и так далее.

The classification from trhe quote shows that the problem is very deep.

What is the interest of yours to look for a woman who has a problem with immigrants? If it was not be like that you wouldn't write down

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Нашёл одну.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Больше людей нуждается в России.

What did you mean? You phrase says that "More people than it had been before need Russia." Are you sure in it?

Are you sure in your translation? His phrase is clumsy, but it is completely clear. Where do you find in it "than it", "had been" and "before"?

Захотел сказать: Россия нуждается больше людей.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Скинхед ли - мэр Москвы, Юрий Лужков?

Khmm... No, he's not. It's one thing to try and resolve "the immigrant problem" legally and another to beat up people because of their race/ethnicity/nationality. I don't want Russia to become an outpost of Tadjikistan or China any more than anyone else... I love our culture too much. But I don't think it's likely too happen anyway. And the solution to it is in curbing illegal immigration and, most importantly, improving the standards of living. Besides, this 'problem' exists everywhere, as ekaterinak pointed out -- the US is swamped by Mexicans, France, Germany -- by Arabs, Great Britain -- by Indians?

Here, in Siberia, it's more popular to talk about the Chinese. Though, for the life of me, I don't see a lot of Chinese in the streets -- a couple of students from Kazakhstan, and that's all...

Анекдот:
Решили однажды выяснить, как население Сибири и Дальнего Востока относится к китайцам. 15% населения на вопрос "Как вы относитесь к китайцам?" ответили "Хорошо". А 85% – "Халясё".

Another variation is, the population was asked "Как вам здесь живется?"

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Это совершенно нормально, стремиться сделать так, чтобы дворниками в наших дворах и рабочими на стройках были бы жители Москвы или подмосковья вместо граждан солнечного Таджикистана.

Is anyone stopping them? As I understand it, illegal immigrants usually perform work that natives are too fastidious to do. In addition, giving work to foreigners from poorer countries is more profitable for the employer -- they don't ask high wages and social guarantees. That's why some companies, like Nike and Reebok, relocated part of their business to Asian countries (China, Pakistan, etc). Check out sweatshop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshops.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Захотел сказать: Россия нуждается в увеличении численности населения

I suppose that it is true for many countries, not for Russia only.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Это совершенно нормально, стремиться сделать так, чтобы дворниками в наших дворах и рабочими на стройках были бы жители Москвы или подмосковья вместо граждан солнечного Таджикистана.

Is anyone stopping them? As I understand it, illegal immigrants usually perform work that natives are too fastidious to do. In addition, giving work to foreigners from poorer countries is more profitable for the employer -- they don't ask high wages and social guarantees. That's why some companies, like Nike and Reebok, relocated part of their business to Asian countries (China, Pakistan, etc). Check out sweatshop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshops.

Для любой страны нет ничего хорошего в том, что производство перемещается в другую страну. Никто не спорит, это очень выгодно для работодателей, но для местного населения это означает одно: сокращение рабочих мест, безработицу, низкий уровень жизни, отсутствие развития технологий и прикладной науки. Возможно, что все эти последствия не произойдут одномоментно, но рано или поздно это приведет к такому результату. Вот почему, интересно, Китай выходит в лидеры? Да потому что там сосредоточено производство! Это миф, считать, что если завод/произоводство расположить в одной стране, то квалифицированных инженеров для него можно будет "воспитать" в другой. "Запала" хватит лет на 10-15, а потом - в производстве будут разбираться, а значит и развивать его, те люди, которые имеют на этот завод "доступ", а не те, которые сидят за тысячи километров в офисах и думают, что руководят.
Незаконная трудовая миграция не повышает уровень жизни, а наоборот, снижает его. Причём это "бьёт" по обеим группам: по группе местного населения и по группе тех же мигрантов. Для первых - работадатели снижают уровень заработной платы, из за чего платёжеспособность населения падает, уровень жизни тоже. Для вторых - работадатели получают возможность использовать практически рабский труд. Через поколение мигранты становятся местным населением, угадайте, в какой уровень жизни они попадут?
Если это всё не регулировать, то начнётся "социалистический капитализм", когда работаешь как папа Карло, а зарабатываешь так, как будто работаешь на общественных началах.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Martin Miles wrote:
Захотел сказать: Россия нуждается в увеличении численности населения
I suppose that it is true for many countries, not for Russia only.

Это - русский форум. I will discuss conditions in Madagascar somewhere else.

Permit me to remind you of the real issue here:

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Women should have rights over their bodies, but at the same time they shouldn't complain about being swamped by immigrants who are helping to solve a problem that has been created by the emancipated women themselves.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

I suppose that it is true for many countries, not for Russia only.

Это русский форум.

This is a forum about learning Russian language, for your information. If someone wants so much to talk about politics, there is a special section for that here.

I will discuss conditions in Madagascar somewhere else.

Actually, ekaterina didn't say that you cannot discuss Russia conditions here. What she says was just a reasonable remark which very well fitted the discussion you offered. Your reply to her is impolite.

I don't think you, Оля, are in any position to criticise me for being impolite. I remember you shouting at me in another topic. There was also a time you were following me around and taking every opportunuty to contradict me, with or without reason. I was provoked by some of ekaterinak's earlier comments but you seem not to have noticed them. Please try to be impartial. In any case the lady in question is an adult and should be able to speak for herself without the intrusion of third parties.

Your distinction between a Russian forum and a forum for learning Russian where Russian issues are discussed seems like splitting hairs to me. And who is discussing politics? In general discussion there are topics about literature and film that could be placed somewhere else but I have not heard you complaining.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Martin Miles wrote:
starrysky wrote:
I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants.Нашёл одну.
Do you mean Russia that has the name which is female gender? It is very original! Don't forget that the USA, Britain, France, German, Belgium, Spain and.. the whole Europe can be described like that as well.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

There was also a time you were following me around and taking every opportunuty to contradict me, with or without reason.

Dear sir, you seem to have a paranoia. I have no idea what you are talking about. Probably there was a discussion where I contradicted your opinion (I really don't remember it), but if you think I did it intentionally, you overrate importance of your person in my eyes.

I don't think you, Оля, are in any position to criticise me for being impolite. I remember you shouting at me in another topic.

Oh, you probably mean this post:
viewtopic.php?p=219913#p219913

Poor guy, you must be a very sensitive person if you took that line as shouting. However, anyone would have lost his patience if an obstinate guy from another part of the world would stubbornly try to prove that he and google know more about climate in the two cities where you spent all your life, and he has never been even in one of them. You've been "shouted" after a long bunch of polite and intelligible answers from people who really knew the subject.

Anyway, regardless of me being or not being rude to you, it has nothing to do with the fact of impoliteness of your reply to Ekaterina.

all of a sudden this belongs in culture and history??

[quote=Martin Miles]
Permit me to remind you of the real issue here:

Originally Posted by "Martin Miles":1uophs0i

Women should have rights over their bodies, but at the same time they shouldn't complain about being swamped by immigrants who are helping to solve a problem that has been created by the emancipated women themselves.

[/quote:1uophs0i]
Martin, do you see the difference between two kinds of problems: the first is illegal migrants (level of a state) and the second is some problems of some woman with "their rights over their bodies"(level of interpersonal communication)? I've got the impression that they are the same for you. It is strange.
And why do you not like emancipated women? Your posts show that you are offended by them. I'm sorry about this, but you don't have to fill youself any abhorrence. It is the road to nothing.
Good luck.

Oi vei...

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Если это всё не регулировать, то начнётся "социалистический капитализм", когда работаешь как папа Карло, а зарабатываешь так, как будто работаешь на общественных началах.

Ну в Китае-то проблемы с низкой зарплатой не из-за иммиграции, а ровно из другой области -- перенаселенности. И их экономика наоборот на подъеме. Потом, я так понимаю, что "социалистический капитализм" это то же, что "капитализм с человеческим лицом" или "социальная демократия"? Джоанна описывала недавно в политике, как у них там все устроено в Швеции, когда нет ни чересчур богатых, ни слишком бедных, а политики зарабатывают столько же, сколько обычные люди -- так я бы хотела как в Швеции! Только у нас такое вряд ли когда будет, наверно.

Originally Posted by Оля

However, anyone would have lost his patience if an obstinate guy from another part of the world would stubbornly try to prove that he and google know more about climate in the two cities where you spent all your life, and he has never been even in one of them.

Well, this totally doesn't belong here but I took a peek at that topic... As I understand it from my friends who have been in St. Petersburg in winter and my relatives who live there, subjectively, it seems colder than it actually is because of the wind. When there's a strong wind, even -15 degrees Celsius would seem like -30. So even if the average winter temperatures in St. Petersburg are lower than in Moscow, they would seem harder to bear because of the wind and general humidity. Believe me, we Siberians know something about cold. We've had -25 for about a week already...

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Women should have rights over their bodies, but at the same time they shouldn't complain about being swamped by immigrants who are helping to solve a problem that has been created by the emancipated women themselves.

Well, you can't change it. There are a lot of advantages for women because of the emancipation and there's no changing the history... I personally think if there's a problem that should be discussed, it's overpopulation. We have now what, 6 billion people on this earth? Whereas it was only 1 bln at the beginning of the 20th century. Overcrowding creates many problems, like lack of food and other resources, which in turn leads to an increase in aggression and wars. Emancipation, or rather, advances in contraception, only help to solve those problems.