Thread: Sonnet 130 by Shakespeare

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.

Could someone please explain me the parts in red?
Do I understand correct that nothing like means "not at all"? I.e. "her eyes are not like the sun at all / they are not similar to the sun (at all)"?

As for if + be (If snow be, If hairs be), I don't understand the construction at all. Or, is it the same as "If snow was white" (если бы снег был белым...)?

Also, I don't understand what "wires" here means? Because if it's провод / проволока, it's... strange. If it is - does it really sound beautiful in English?

Why is there "then" after the first "if" (If snow be white, why then...) and there isn't after the second one (If hairs be wires...)? I can't get the sense of the last line...

Originally Posted by Оля

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.

Could someone please explain me the parts in red?
Do I understand correct that nothing like means "not at all"? I.e. "her eyes are not like the sun at all / they are not similar to the sun (at all)"?

Yes

Originally Posted by Оля

As for if + be (If snow be, If hairs be), I don't understand the construction at all. Or, is it the same as "If snow was white" (если бы снег был белым...)?

Если я ничего не путаю, это устаревшая конструкция, которая значит то же самое, что и "if snow is white"

Originally Posted by Оля

Also, I don't understand what "wires" here means? Because if it's провод / проволока, it's... strange. If it is - does it really sound beautiful in English?

He tells us that his mistress is by no means beautiful according to conventional standards

Originally Posted by Оля

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.

Could someone please explain me the parts in red?
Do I understand correct that nothing like means "not at all"? I.e. "her eyes are not like the sun at all / they are not similar to the sun (at all)"?

As for if + be (If snow be, If hairs be), I don't understand the construction at all. Or, is it the same as "If snow was white" (если бы снег был белым...)?

Also, I don't understand what "wires" here means? Because if it's провод / проволока, it's... strange. If it is - does it really sound beautiful in English?

Why is there "then" after the first "if" (If snow be white, why then...) and there isn't after the second one (If hairs be wires...)? I can't get the sense of the last line...

Оля, это ты в КВН услышала вчера?
Тут же ясно, что у неё волосы толстые и жёсткие. А поскольку весь сонет - это противопоставление её "заурядной", но подлинной красоте тем избитым сравнениям, которыми незаслуженно награждают красавиц всех времён, то жёсткие волосы никак не говорят в её пользу. Он её любит даже с такой шевелюрой.
Оля, есть же переводы сонетов.

Ее глаза на звезды не похожи,
Нельзя уста кораллами назвать,
Не белоснежна плеч открытых кожа,
И черной проволокой вьется прядь.

С дамасской розой, алой или белой,
Нельзя сравнить оттенок этих щек.
А тело пахнет так, как пахнет тело,
Не как фиалки нежный лепесток.

Ты не найдешь в ней совершенных линий,
Особенного света на челе.
Не знаю я, как шествуют богини,
Но милая ступает по земле.

И все ж она уступит тем едва ли,
Кого в сравненьях пышных оболгали.

Sonnet 130

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red, than her lips red:
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask'd, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound:
I grant I never saw a goddess go,--
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet by heaven, I think my love as rare,
As any she belied with false compare.

Originally Posted by Оля

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.

Could someone please explain me the parts in red?
Do I understand correct that nothing like means "not at all"? I.e. "her eyes are not like the sun at all / they are not similar to the sun (at all)"?

Yes. "Nothing like" = "completely unlike". This is still a common phrase in modern English.

e.g. "A carrot is nothing like a shark".

As for if + be (If snow be, If hairs be), I don't understand the construction at all. Or, is it the same as "If snow was white" (если бы снег был белым...)?

If x be y is an archaic version of the English subjunctive. You'll never see anything like that form in current-modern English except in sentences like "he demanded that the prisoner be released", and even that form is becoming rarer and rarer. "If snow be white..." actually means "Since snow is white..." or "because it is an established fact that snow is white..."

Also, I don't understand what "wires" here means? Because if it's провод / проволока, it's... strange. If it is - does it really sound beautiful in English?

Yeah that's what it means, and no it doesn't sound beautiful, but that is exactly the point. Sonnet 130 is Shakespeare's challenge to the tradition in contemporary poetry to compare favourably a lover's qualities with a list of cliched perfections; white as snow, eyes like the sun, a voice like music and so on. Basically, he was taking the piss.

Why is there "then" after the first "if" (If snow be white, why then...) and there isn't after the second one (If hairs be wires...)? I can't get the sense of the last line...

In if x then y expressions "then" is sometimes optional.

If you invite me, I'll come.
If you invite me, then I'll come.

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

He tells us tha his mistress is by no means beautiful accoring to conventional standars

Ну это-то я понимаю. Сейчас я просто хочу понять грамматику и структуру английского варианта.

Originally Posted by Leof

Оля, это ты в КВН услышала вчера?

Нет, Лёва, я КВН вчера пропустила.

Оля, есть же переводы сонетов.

Все переводы, тем более переводы стихов - это литературные, художественные переводы. А я хочу понять вариант на английском.


Scotcher, thank you very much, I think I understand now.

I have another question: what does "damask'd" in "I have seen roses damask'd, red and white" mean?

Originally Posted by Оля

Scotcher, thank you very much, I think I understand now.

I have another question: what does "damask'd" in "I have seen roses damask'd, red and white" mean?

Damask is a type of cloth with an intricate patter or design, and the verb "to damask" means "to adorn with an elaborate design", so "roses damask'd, red and white" means roses adourned with an elaborate pattern of red and white. It would be written "damasked" nowadays, if anyone ever had need to write it.

There is also a variety of pink rose called the damask rose which has been around forever, certainly since before Shakespeare's time, so it might be a play on words too, but I'm not certain about that.

Ah! So damask'd means just damasked!
I see. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Оля

Ah! So damask'd means just damasked!
I see. Thank you.

It's to show that the E is not pronounced, so the word fits into the poem. BTW in modern English the E is not prononounced anyway.

Originally Posted by TATY

BTW in modern English the E is not prononounced anyway.

Actually I always thought so, but recently I've heard in a movie Mr.Rickman says "...to be able to look your belovEd in the eye..." Very distinctly

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by TATY

BTW in modern English the E is not pronounced anyway.

Actually I always thought so, but recently I've heard in a movie Mr.Rickman says "...to be able to look your belovEd in the eye..." Very distinctly

You can pronounce beloved like that. Basically in older English, the E used to be fully pronounced, that's why Shakespeare had to indicate with an apostrophe that the E was silent in his sonnet.

If you want to indicate the reverse, that the E is pronounced, you can put an acute accent on it. It's considered archaic, I've only seen it in hymns at Church, e.g. belov

You can pronounced beloved like that.

Me? You mean - I can or one can? Was it a sarcasm? Or this word is particular?

Originally Posted by Оля

You can pronounce beloved like that.

Me? You mean - I can or one can? Was it a sarcasm? Or this word is particular?

No, it was not sarcasm. Listen to both pronunciations of "beloved" at this link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beloved (click the red speakers)

Originally Posted by Оля

You can pronounced beloved like that.

Me? You mean - I can or one can? Was it a sarcasm? Or this word is particular?

"You can" is an impersonal construction, like "One can" (Можно...)

I meant in English it's possible to pronounced it /be-lovd/ or /be-lo-ved/. I'd personally use the latter.

Note, this specifically relates to the word 'beloved', usually the E in the -ed suffix is not pronounced at all, or is reduced to a very short vowel sound.

Also you misspelt Shakespeare in the title of this thread.

[quote=Оля][quote="translations.nm.ru":2jdgf6b6]He tells us tha his mistress is by no means beautiful accoring to conventional standars[/quote]
Ну это-то я понимаю. Сейчас я просто хочу понять [i]грамматику и структуру[/i] английского варианта.[/quote:2jdgf6b6]

Читать книжки про subjunctive. Типа отчего и почему long live_ the king , вроде
[url="http://www.alt-usage-english.org/subjunctive_supplement.html"]http://www.alt-usage-english.org/subjun ... ement.html[/url]
и
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html

eta:чОрт. (s) не работайт.

Originally Posted by vox05

Читать книжки про subjunctive.

Это приказ?

А я не хочу читать книжки. Я хочу на конкретном примере. И меня этот способ устраивает.

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by vox05

Читать книжки про subjunctive.

Это приказ?

Это инфинитив.

[/quote]А я не хочу читать книжки. Я хочу на конкретном примере. И меня этот способ устраивает.[/quote]

Там примеров тоже есть.