Thread: "that" or "no that"

Can somebody explain me the differense between:

He told me that the bus has gone./ He told me the bus has gone.
I believe that you are wrong. / I believe you are wrong.

and so on...

In Russian this "that" is necessary, so I just don't get it...

Originally Posted by Gerty

Can somebody explain me the differense between:

He told me that the bus has gone./ He told me the bus has gone.
I believe that you are wrong. / I believe you are wrong.

and so on...

In Russian this "that" is necessary, so I just don't get it...

There's no difference.

It has the same meaning, and there isn't really a specific situation to use the two differntly. It's one of those things where you have to be a native English speaker to pick up. I wouldn't worry about it.

Originally Posted by Gerty

In Russian this "that" is necessary, so I just don't get it...

Я думаю, Вы неправы.

Originally Posted by N

Originally Posted by Gerty

In Russian this "that" is necessary, so I just don't get it...

Я думаю, Вы неправы.

Ну да, может быть, не в этих конкретных ситуациях, но чаще всего я не сомневаюсь, где нужно "который" и "что". Well, may be it's BECAUSE I am a native Russian speaker...

Sometimes it is necessary to use "that".

The horse ran by the barn fell. - This makes no sence!

The horse that ran by the barn fell.

The horse ran by the barn that fell.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Sometimes it is necessary to use "that".

The horse ran by the barn fell. - This makes no sence!

The horse that ran by the barn fell.

The horse ran by the barn that fell.

Or "The horse ran by the barn and fell" Depending on what your talking about.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Sometimes it is necessary to use "that".

The horse ran by the barn fell. - This makes no sence!

The horse that ran by the barn fell.

The horse ran by the barn that fell.

These are instances where the word that can be translated as "который" in Russian.
Gerty is asking about "that" when it can be translated as "что". IN those cases you can leave out "that' and it will have the same meaning.
It is simply understood.

So, basically, "that" as "что" - it's just a decoration?

Originally Posted by Gerty

So, basically, "that" as "что" - it's just a decoration?

Yes.

I am sorry but there it is not identical to say it with 'that' or without (at least not 100%). You change the feeling of the phrase with adding 'that'. It makes the sentence more definite, while without more general/

I know that 5 + 5 is 10 (definite imformation, specifically 5+5, now, in response to specific question)
I know 5+5 is 10 (general statement, always)

Coversational examples:

- You didn't know that 5+5 = 10???
- I know that 5+5 is 10!!!

- Do you know math?
- Well... I know 5+5 is 10, so yes. (but if you can also add the 'that' to make the example more definite)

It is really all about feeling, hard to explain...

If someone says: "Vinnie is an idiot" the response
"I know that he is an idiot" sounds better to me than "I know he is an idiot"

lol, am I crazy?

PS gerty: He told me that the bus had gone

There is no significant difference between "I know that he is an idiot" and "I know he is an idiot".

But in my humble opinion:

"I know that he is an idiot"
I think that this emphasises know.

"I know he is an idiot"
This is a general statement with no emphasis.
It is like saying "I know the sky is blue". It is just a fact.

There are some rules with clauses [that] I don't remember exactly now. The rules, I mean. So don't mind the omission when no sense suffers from you linguistic experiments.

It is hard enough for a native speaker too define "that" in this context. We native speakers can argue our views all day but I think, (that) for anyone who is trying to learn the English language, (that) they should not concern themselves with this too much.

And yes Klink ol' boy, you probably are crazy. Why else would you be studying Russian?

Maybe an army of turquoise midgets are forcing him at knifepoint to study Russian...

As someone with experience of teaching English to Russians, I can sympathize with this question. My advice is to direct your efforts toward identifying the cases in which "that" can be omitted, and to note that in these cases native speakers quite strongly prefer to omit it - especially in speech.
Of course, I assume you've gone through the process of learning the rules on relative clauses in English. Don't assume that native speakers actually know them, they were generally not taught them at school.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Coversational examples:

- You didn't know that 5+5 = 10???
- I know that 5+5 is 10!!!

- Do you know math?
- Well... I know 5+5 is 10, so yes. (but if you can also add the 'that' to make the example more definite)

lol, am I crazy?

As a native American English speaker, I can tell you that you're crazy.

"I know that 5 + 5 = 10" and "I know 5 + 5 = 10" have no different fealing at all to me.

However, my first sentance did bring up a time when "that" is necesarry. You can say "I can tell you you're crazy", but it looks awkward when written, so people usually add the "that."