Thread: Commas in lists and enumerations

Do I have to put comma before final "and" (in red) in constructions like these:


The colors were yellow, green, red, and blue.

And is there a list of rules of English punctuation?

Если не поставишь запятую, то получится красно-синий цвет.
Запятая перед and обычно нужна, чтобы рассматривать предметы отдельно, а не вместе. Вопрос всплывал год назад тут

Originally Posted by Ramil

Do I have to put comma before final "and" (in red) in constructions like these:


The colors were yellow, green, red, and blue.

And is there a list of rules of English punctuation?

Depends on whether you are using the British English writing style (omit the red comma if so) or American English (the comma is required).

There are other differences in punctuation as well, e.g.:

He said, "I won't go there". (BrE)
He said, "I won't go there." (AmE)

Notice the position of the final period.

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

Originally Posted by Ramil

Do I have to put comma before final "and" (in red) in constructions like these:


The colors were yellow, green, red, and blue.

And is there a list of rules of English punctuation?

Depends on whether you are using the British English writing style (omit the red comma if so) or American English (the comma is required).

Not so fast.

I don't know how strict the usage is in the US but in the UK the serial comma is known as the Oxford comma and you are as likely to see it used as not, more likely in academic publications and less likely in newspapers where space is a premium, but it should always be used whenever not using it would cause ambiguity, and it should never be used whenever using it would cause ambiguity.

So in your example in BrE it would be optional (personally I would include it), but...

in the sentence:
"I saw John, a policeman, and a banjo player."
including the comma indicates that I saw three different people, wheras omitting it indicates that John is both a policeman and a banjo player. In neither case is the comma simply optional.

There are other differences in punctuation as well, e.g.:

He said, "I won't go there". (BrE)
He said, "I won't go there." (AmE)

Notice the position of the final period.

Again, not so fast. The rule in BrE isn't that the punctuation is placed outside the quotation, but that it is only placed inside the quotation marks if it is part of the quotation. Note the difference:

"I am going to the pub," said John, "the new one on the high street".
"I am going to the pub", said John, and walked out.

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

Originally Posted by Ramil

Do I have to put comma before final "and" (in red) in constructions like these:


The colors were yellow, green, red, and blue.

And is there a list of rules of English punctuation?

Depends on whether you are using the British English writing style (omit the red comma if so) or American English (the comma is required).

There are other differences in punctuation as well, e.g.:

He said, "I won't go there". (BrE)
He said, "I won't go there." (AmE)

Notice the position of the final period.

The serial comma is not required in American English. Some people use it and some don't. It is something English teachers enjoy arguing about. You just need to be consistent about either using it or not using it in a particular written piece.

There's a joke about this rule.

A panda walks into a bar and orders a sandwich. He eats the sandwich, pulls out a gun, shoots the bartender, then starts to walk outside. A man stops him and says, "You can't do that!" The panda says, "Yes I can. I'm a panda. Look it up." The man looks in his dictionary and sees this: Panda, large mammal, native to China, eats shoots and leaves.

I can explain that if you don't understand it.

Originally Posted by paulb

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

Originally Posted by Ramil

Do I have to put comma before final "and" (in red) in constructions like these:


The colors were yellow, green, red, and blue.

And is there a list of rules of English punctuation?

Depends on whether you are using the British English writing style (omit the red comma if so) or American English (the comma is required).

There are other differences in punctuation as well, e.g.:

He said, "I won't go there". (BrE)
He said, "I won't go there." (AmE)

Notice the position of the final period.

The serial comma is not required in American English. Some people use it and some don't. It is something English teachers enjoy arguing about. You just need to be consistent about either using it or not using it in a particular written piece.

There's a joke about this rule.

A panda walks into a bar and orders a sandwich. He eats the sandwich, pulls out a gun, shoots the bartender, then starts to walk outside. A man stops him and says, "You can't do that!" The panda says, "Yes I can. I'm a panda. Look it up." The man looks in his dictionary and sees this: Panda, large mammal, native to China, eats shoots and leaves.

I can explain that if you don't understand it.

Except you got the punchline wrong:

"Eats, shoots and leaves"

The whole point is that there is a misplaced comma after "eats" which makes the three words verbs.

"Eats shoots and leaves" means that shoots and leaves is the direct object of the verb Eats, i.e. they are nouns (the parts of the plant), i.e. the correct meaning.

Originally Posted by TATY

Except you got the punchline wrong:

"Eats, shoots and leaves"

The whole point is that there is a misplaced comma after "eats" which makes the three words verbs.

"Eats shoots and leaves" means that shoots and leaves is the direct object of the verb Eats, i.e. they are nouns (the parts of the plant).

Well, yes and no. It's only a joke because of the ambiguity. The dictionary reference obviously would NOT have the comma, but the comma is implied in the speech. Works better as a spoken joke.

You will notice there is no comma in the punchline here: http://www.dashes.com/anil/2005/03/panda-joke-vi.html
or here:
http://www.ajokes.com/jokes/1603.html

Originally Posted by scotcher

Again, not so fast. The rule in BrE isn't that the punctuation is placed outside the quotation,

And where did I say it was?

but that it is only placed inside the quotation marks if it is part of the quotation. Note the difference:

"I am going to the pub," said John, "the new one on the high street".
"I am going to the pub", said John, and walked out.

Correct, and how does this make my examples incorrect? I just posted them as one example of differences between punctuation practices in different countries.

As to your comment about commas in lists, fair enough. My information was incomplete (Yes, I underestimated the spread of this usage in BrE, so thanks for straightening this out ). Still, serious American style books (E.g. Chicago Manual of Style) "strongly recommed" to always use the serial comma (aka series, or Oxford, or Harvard comma). So, let's say that it is closer to being a standard usage in US than it is in UK.

Originally Posted by paulb

The serial comma is not required in American English. Some people use it and some don't.

A weak argument. Some people write, "Their not aware of they're rites."

Originally Posted by paulb

It is something English teachers enjoy arguing about. You just need to be consistent about either using it or not using it in a particular written piece.

English teachers may argue till they are blue in face. The fact remains that The Chicago Manual of Style and style guides of many American academic magazines recommend to use the serial comma. (Oddly enough, Associated Press seems to be against it, but then again, they are journalists, doh!). So, I stand by my recommendation to use the serial comma if you are using American writing style and want your text to be presentable.

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

And where did I say it was?

You didn't say it, but the way you worded your post strongly implied it. I was just trying to clarify a little.

Correct, and how does this make my examples incorrect? I just posted them as one example of differences between punctuation practices in different countries.

Your example was worse than useless because you implied a general rule without explaining it, and without any explanation it's possible to infer several potential general rules from that example. As I said, I was qualifying your examples, not contradicting them.

As to your comment about commas in lists, fair enough. My information was incomplete (Yes, I underestimated the spread of this usage in BrE, so thanks for straightening this out Smile ). Still, serious American style books (E.g. Chicago Manual of Style) "strongly recommed" to always use the serial comma (aka series, or Oxford, or Harvard comma). So, let's say that it is closer to being a standard usage in US than it is in UK.

I see no evidence that it closer to standard usage in the US, in fact as far as I can see the usage is almost identical. Academic style generally recommends using it on both sides of the pond (hence the name "Oxford comma"), while journalistic style guides argue against, again on both sides of the pond. It may be the case that the usage is different outside of the realms of journalism and academia, for example how it is taught in schools, or how it is used informally by the teaming masses, but judging by your quote below you don't think those count as any sort of indicators anyway:

English teachers may argue till they are blue in face. The fact remains that The Chicago Manual of Style and style guides of many American academic magazines recommend to use the serial comma. (Oddly enough, Associated Press seems to be against it, but then again, they are journalists, doh!). So, I stand by my recommendation to use the serial comma if you are using American writing style and want your text to be presentable.

Amusingly you have just said about AmE almost precisely what I said about BrE several posts ago, describing exactly the same vague dichotomy, so you've kind of punctured the slightly misleading generalisation you made in the first place all by yourself.

I was taught in School in Britain, that you don't write a final comma before the 'and'. Later, in High School they said you can do either. I prefer to use the Oxford comma, I just find it is makes things clearer, especially if the individual items in the list contain the word and.

E.g. "crips are available in a number of flavours: ready salted, cheese and onion and salt and vinegar"

could be ambigious but: "ready salted, cheese and onion, and salt and vinegar" clearly separates the three items.

Everything you ever wanted to know is on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma