Thread: Russian Firarms

Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

I'm confused, which means I'll blame America

Is 'honour' spelt honour in America and honor everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..

Originally Posted by Alexi

Originally Posted by Pravit

Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

I'm confused, which means I'll blame America

Is 'honour' spelt honour in America and honor everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..

"Honor" is the American spelling and Pravit used the British one.

Originally Posted by Friendy

Originally Posted by Alexi

Originally Posted by Pravit

Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

I'm confused, which means I'll blame America

Is 'honour' spelt honour in America and honor everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..

"Honor" is the American spelling and Pravit used the British one.

Wow! Now I know the correct spelling for Australia!..

While we're on this subject, I should mention that a local University teacher has asked me for help in setting a thesis/dissertation to one of her students. She wants it to be about the importing of American idiom (and other language features) into British English. Anyone got any suggestions for good web links on that kind of thing?

Alexi, another similar example is color/colour. These kind of spelling variations come from words which have a 'French-style' spelling which is not phonetically obvious; there are lots of them. Another one is center/centre.

Originally Posted by Alexi

Wow! Now I know the correct spelling for Australia!..

Which one?

These kind of spelling variations come from words which have a 'French-style' spelling which is not phonetically obvious; there are lots of them

Yes, we French... I mean, Australians are a dying breed.

Which one?

You know, I'm actually not sure... again. I'd say 'honour', but 'honor' seems pretty acceptable too.

I just guess 'honour'/'honor' is a word I don't encounter very much, compared to 'centre' and 'colour', which is interesting.

The original AK-47 was designed for 7.62x39 rounds. The 5.45 ammo simply did not exist back then. Do your homework . It was AK-74 that was made for 5.45.

I stand corrected.

I may even grant you that the appearance is similar because he liked some ergonomics of STG-44, but the mechanics is totally different.

Yeah, that's what I said.
Mechanics wise, their not very different. I work with gas systems hands on all the time. The vast majority of the European gas systems are all the same basis which is the closed straight bolt. This includes the AK, STG-44, FAL, G-3, STG-58, G-36, SL-8 and I believe even the Enfield SA-80 uses the straight bolt, closed action. The mechanical difference between these actions is very minor 80% of the time. Gas powered firearms that are dirt sensitive and need to be cleaned often are usually ones that have tight action, poorly fit recoil springs or both. Alike some of the mouser autos of it's time, the STG-44 has tight action. The AK has some of the better recoil springs for the job and very loose and rugged action. All you need is stiff recoil springs and tighter machining on the very design and the AK will be just as sensitive. Like so, MOST European autos that are abuse and ammo sensitive can have these problems fixed just by action tuning, replacement of the recoil springs and sometimes trimming the gas ram a bit.

You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

The 5.45x39 DOES NOT have this feature and was never designed to. It does have a hefty energy transfer, but so do all high power rounds, including the 7.62x39.
Actually, their is no bullet on earth that is designed to actually bounce around in peoples bodies, and very few actually do by high %.
The 5.45x39 cartridge DOES tend to swerve through the target, but so do many light weight rounds.
I have put thousands of rounds from various firearms and ammo brands and types ( including Russian surplus guns and ammo ) and very few have truly had actual bounced around. The most consistent ballistics I have seen out of any of them was from the M-1 Carbine, where shooting at a tar bucket at 70 yards, it tumbled to some extent upon impact almost every time.
In terms of actual flat out deflecting in different direction upon entry, the only round I have really seen do this more often then once in a while is the 7.62x39 Soviet fired from an SKS.
One I have not actually tested is the AR-15 and 5.56 rounds. I have on the other hand examined cavities made by other shooters, shortly after fire and the very light grain bullets make a mess from hell almost 100% of the time when penetrating solid surfaces.
The 55gr 5.56 round was specially designed and engineered to do this from ground zero, and the M-16 was designed specifically to work with this round.
The M-16 uses a 1-7 twist that rotates the bullet while in flight, causing the rear of the bullet to rotate and when it hits bone, it splits from the rear forward in to fragments of twisted metal, which spin through the targets body like a blender.

It was only used briefly during WWII, and only the experimental batch made for testing purposes. It was only in 1949 that SKS became a standard issue in the Soviet Army (along with AK).

And you never contradicted what I said.

You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are not AK. They are based on AK, and that's that

Saiga is based on the Kalashnikove action, but it's not exactly a civilian only firearm ( at least not the shotguns, which ARE used by the Russian military.
Just about every AK model that exists in other countries armed forces exists in the hands of American citizens, I can even direct you to some places who carry them.
Maybe I worded myself wrong, and should have said "yes and no", but the fact is, AKs exist in both rates of fire.

[quote:1ost0kdk]You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

The 5.45x39 DOES NOT have this feature and was never designed to. [/quote:1ost0kdk]

Take an original army 5.45x39 cartridge, extract the bullet and cut it lengthwise. You'll see that there is an empty space in the front part of the bullet. It was made this way in order to shift the center of gavity to the rear part of the bullet. When such a bullet hits a body, it changes its orientation: it starts moving sideways and, then botton first.
needless to say, it changes the direction of its motion as well. You can see a picture of a cavity made by such a bullet here: http://oskarweapons.narod.ru/defeatcapable.htm#2

The 5.45x39 cartridge DOES tend to swerve through the target, but so do many light weight rounds.

Well, ok, we agree then that it does swerve, right? That is what I wanted to say. It does not bounce, but it does swerve. I am happy with this definition . And it WAS designed this way, see above.

[quote:1ost0kdk]You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are not AK. They are based on AK, and that's that

Just about every AK model that exists in other countries armed forces exists in the hands of American citizens, I can even direct you to some places who carry them.
Maybe I worded myself wrong, and should have said "yes and no", but the fact is, AKs exist in both rates of fire.[/quote:1ost0kdk]

I am quite willing to belive that some stores in US sell AK clones or mutilated AKs with the automatic fire function disabled. But it must be a mere handful compared to millions AKs all over the world that do have this function. I guess you can find similarly changed F14s or other assault rifles as well. Does it makes them non-automatic as well?

The original AK, as well as AKM, AK-74, AKSU etc, etc, all have a switch that lets you switch between automatic and single fire.

In the countries where fully automatic weapons cannot be legally sold to civilians, this swich can be removed or jammed to disable the automatic fire function. But just as I told above, it is just a handful compared to millions and millions of full-auto AKs.

Even the name itself—"Avtomat Kalashnikova"—suggests that it is an automatic weapon, because only fully automatic firearms (assault rifles and SMGs) are called "avtomat" in Russian.

On a different note:

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

A. Yes. Armscor makes an AK-22.

You might want to add to your FAQ that there is also a modification of AKM chambered for 5.56x45 NATO rounds. I think Izhmash used to make them, not sure if they still do. I have also heard of numerous clones made in different countries for this 5.56 NATO cartridge.

And just for history lovers: the first prototype of assault rifles was Avtomat Fyodorova, a fully automatic rifle chambered for 6.5mm Japanese rifle cartrige. Its design was completed in 1916, but because of the revolutions that took place in 1917, only a little more than 3 thousand of these rifles were ever manufactured.

I am aware of the 5.56 AK. I have a friend who has a Norinco MAK-90 chambered for this round. It's the finest shooting .22 Caliber combat rifle I've ever fired.
Below is a picture of it taken at one of our get togethers:



I've seen them for sale for 1000 dollars. I among other people have questioned why so expensive. Now that I've fired one, I can see why.

I am quite willing to believe that some stores in US sell AK clones or mutilated AKs with the automatic fire function disabled. But it must be a mere handful compared to millions AKs all over the world that do have this function.

Their are millions of them in the US. The Kalashnikove rifle is one of the many military rifles that is in endless supply in the US.
They now make single stack variants do to the AW ban but the ones that have been imported, which consist of probably 80% or more of the worlds retired AKs have been imported to the US prior to the AWB and are still readily available. I believe that all that has been done is they have had semi-auto trigger groups made and installed.
Probably as much as 40% or more of the AKs in existence are in the hands of American civilians and companies.
When you get a chance, take a peak at a shotgun news or gunlist magazine. You will see more AK, G-3 and STG-58 style rifles in their then anything else, and every one you see represents hundreds, maybe even thousands of them in stock.

You can also check out some of these guys:

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop/c ... id=Firearm

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/rifles/ak47/ak47.html

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Rifles.html

http://catalog.jgsales.com/

Well, ok, we agree then that it does swerve, right? That is what I wanted to say. It does not bounce, but it does swerve. I am happy with this definition . And it WAS designed this way, see above.

I understand.

Take an original army 5.45x39 cartridge, extract the bullet and cut it lengthwise. You'll see that there is an empty space in the front part of the bullet.

Yeah, I know. I've done just that. The 7.62x39 also has this feature.

I guess you can find similarly changed F14s or other assault rifles as well. Does it makes them non-automatic as well?

F-14? F-14 is a fighter jet. You must be referring to the M-14?
They make a few civilian variants of the M-14, the Springfield M-1A, the Armscorp M-21A ( which is one of the US military current Sniper Rifles ), Norinco M-305 etc.
The Springfield M-1A however is built using match grade parts and I am not sure what the M-21A uses but I THINK they are pretty similar to the M-1A, while the Norinco M-305, which is probably the better die hard rifle of the bunch uses it's own parts.
Fulton Armory Makes an M-14 that uses their own design receiver and USGI parts, and supposedly, is the finest M-14 variant out their out of the box. M-14 rifles are a very high-end rifle and probably the most versatile rifle on earth, so people who own them usually put allot of money in to them and research their parts and have mixtures of different brands and quality parts. According to the people who have been in to M-14s the longest, know them the best and have seen all the different variants, all seam to agree that the best one is one with a polytech receiver, heat treated and assembled by Fulton Armory.
The M-1A is made primarily as a target rifle, so while it's one of the better quality makes, it's not the best of them for multi-purpose use. I've also seen one that exploded on the shooter, who did nothing wrong.

And just for history lovers: the first prototype of assault rifles was Avtomat Fyodorova, a fully automatic rifle chambered for 6.5mm Japanese rifle cartrige. Its design was completed in 1916, but because of the revolutions that took place in 1917, only a little more than 3 thousand of these rifles were ever manufactured.

Yeah, if my memory serves me correctly, that rifle used roller-lock action. IMHO, that and roller-bolt ( which both use the same principal ) are the very best auto actions out their. I am working on a .454 Casaul auto-pistol that uses roller-lock action.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Probably as much as 40% or more of the AKs in existence are in the hands of American civilians and companies.

Quit smoking that stuff, Canon. Fast!

Do some actual research on this, fast.

I did. Figures vary between 30 and 100 million AKs in existence. If we take your "40%" that means between 12 and 40 million of them in the USA, let's take 26, the average. Because they are not used by the US military, that means they are almost entirely possessed by the US civilians. According to www.census.gov, there are about 100 million "occupied housing units" in the USA. Which means, according to you, that every fourth household possesses an AK.

I start wondering why I am arguing with you, as you so obviously live in a parallel world.

If you visit the central and southern US, the numbers of households who have AKs are quite vast indeed.
In addition, their are plenty of people who own multitudes of AKs, in fact, a large portion of people who own AKs, maybe even the majority own between 3 and 10 of them, and I've met a number of people who collect AKs, and have over 20, and lets not forget the millions currently in the possession of American companies, awaiting sale, where a large portion of them are being kept by companies for parts sale as well as a very alive market for AKs.
Their are also organizations who have them for sports, acting, and even the black market.
Their is an estimate of between 1 and 6 million AK-47s in the US ALONE, and the 47 isn't very common.

The more you say on the issue the more detached from the reality you appear.

Originally Posted by bad manners

The more you say on the issue the more detached from the reality you appear.

Once again, words without reason.
Why is it that I am always doing the explaining, while you are always just spitting crude stuff out, impulsively, offering poorly researched information when pressured to actually do your homework? Pride maybe?

The statistics you based your assumption on themselves were flawed, basing the number of them made as the present number in existence, where many have been destroyed throughout history.
You yourself also failed to note the numbers of them in the possession of companies and the consideration of multitudes owned by individuals, as well as illegally owned AKs, which probably consume the majority of AKs in the country.
You also based your assumption on my estimate being at approximately 40% rather then what I really said ( As much as ) which I would probably argue to be somewhere between 27% and 40%.
Your math was fundamentally flawed, do to the fact that you neglected to make a thural examination, but rather, a quick round up of information, probably on a search engine to try to discredit me on a field that I have been in for years and happen to know the ins and outs of.

My math is based on what I can find. What is your assumption based on? On your personal acquaintance with less than a thousand of weirdoes? One thousand weirdoes by 20 AK makes twenty thousand AKs, what does it tell us about something measured in tens of millions? Your data are nothing but statistical noise, yet you are promptly willing to generalise that onto the very grand scale. Same for your "in the possession of companies".

Simply consider that most of the AKs in world are made for and owned by the Russian, Chinese and other large and small armies, then you will see that your statement is equivalent to “26-40% of the lorries worldwide are used by the US citizens for recreation”.

I'll give you part of it.

The vast majority of the retired AK rifles in the world that are not destroyed, are sent to the US for sale to American citizens. This of course includes small exceptions which wined up on the black market and in various other countries that do not prohibit civilian ownership of them.
This is because most countries who actually make and use AKs are poor and on less then hostile terms with the US, therefore, sell them to American importers. We have also bought brand new AKs from many of them. That alone covers an extremely large % of the worlds AKs.
For a period of time, Norinco and Polytech use to make AK rifles specifically for the American market. The man ( a good friend of mine ) I got my Desert Eagle from is personal friends with one of the major importers of Polytech back when they were imported, and mentioned them receiving thousands apron thousands at a time for years, moving at a rapid pace.
Now, all that set aside, and just my personal experience.
I myself have seen as much as 700 stock turn over since late 1999, all consisting of between 300 and 5,000 Aks pher stock. You witness these by identifying when they come in and when their out of stock. I have shallowly monitored this over the last 2 years, and have still seen well over 100.
Prior to 1999, the AK market was even larger, and was like so for decades, and I only witnessed a very small portion of it.
Keep in mind that as many as were sold, it is very likely that the majority are still in the hands of companies, awaiting sale.
I can go all day on how I come to my estimate, but I really need to get back to work.
Either way, the very mixed statistics that are out their, seam to agree with me in general.

44 Canon - can you explain how you marry your fascination with arms with your Christian principles