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Thread: Russian Firarms

  1. #1
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    Russian Firarms

    Alright guys, here is your Russian firearm thread.
    I'll address some history, mechanics, use dynamics etc.
    .................................................. ......................

    Alright, here we go:

    HISTORY

    Mosin Nagent M-91
    Although ugly as sin and cheap to buy ( sometimes as little as $39.99 ), the Mosin Nagent M-91 has probably made more determination of the worlds fate then any other rifle has all on it's own.
    M-91 stands for: Model 1891.
    Based on the massive Berdan II black powder rifle, it was introduced in the the Russian armed forces in 1891 and was adopted by many armed forces who made many variants of it.
    It was a scrawny and "funky" looking rifle, yet high quality for it's time and chambered for the 7.62x54 Soviet cartridge, the .300 Win Mag of it's day.
    Although affective in combat, the high quality made it hard to keep up production of, and was extremely short in supply in WW II, so much that they often pared Russian soldiers up in to teams of 2 and 3, with only one Mosin Nagent rifle among them.
    Between late September of 1942 and early February of 1943, the M-91 would make as large of an impact on the fate of the world as the Normandy Invasion. The bloodiest battle in the history of mankind, and ultimately one of the most important began at the industrial City of Stalingrad, marking the beginning of 4 1/2 winter months of pure hell on earth, ultimately claiming an estimate of one million, forty thousand lives, leaving only sixty thousand survivors.
    Had the Russians lost this battle, the Soviet Union would have been at Hitler's disposal and Normandy probably never would have happened.
    Despite the high efficiency of the German army against Russian troops, they found themselves at the mercy of Russian snipers, armed with Scoped M-91s, who hid in rubble and killed German commanders crippling entire German units. The most famous of all were, Anatoly Chekov, who made an extremely vast range of kills ( over 200 ) and Vassili Zaitsev who made the most important, including German sniper Heinz Thorwald, an event which inspired the movie: Enemy at the Gates.
    Although the last major use of the Rifle ( as far as I've herd of ) dates to the 1950s, the rifle is well used for various purposes to this day.

    SKS
    The SKS was created by Sargie Simonov in 1945, as an attempt to put an affordable semi-auto main battle rifle in to soldiers hands. It was used throughout the later part of WW II and on through the cold war. It is chambered for the 7.62x39 Soviet cartridge, which was designed for the gun.

    AK-47
    AK-47 stands for: Avtomat Kalashnikove model 1947. It was created by Mikhail Kalashnikove in 1947. Although often compared to the SKS, it was ultimately based on the German STG-44 assault rifle and possibly the utmost pioneer of .22 Caliber combat rifles, originally chambered for the 5.45x39 Soviet cartridge.
    The first dependable model was to high in quality and expensive to mass produce as they wanted to, therefore, later modifications were made to reduce the cost of production. They also made later models in 7.62x39 Soviet. Over time, the Kalashnikove action had found it's way to other east European countries and to the middle east and Asia, ultimately resulting in hundreds of different AK variants, including: The Romanian AKM-74, the Russian AKM-74U, the Norinco ( Chinese ) MAK-90, the Maddi ( Egyptian ) AKM-104 etc.
    Despite it's lack of accuracy, in the Viet Nam war, it had proven to be highly affective against US troops armed with the newer, much higher quality M-16 rifle, where US troops often abandoned their M-16s for AK rifles taken from dead enemy troops.
    The Kalashnikove action, legendary for it's strength, reliability and insensitivity to dirt and abuse, became the central basis for virtually all East European military automatic rifle actions including the SVD ( Dragunov ) Sniper rifle, PK series machine guns Saiga shotguns and the higher quality Vepertm rifles only to name a few.
    The Kalashnikove style action is used still to this day by both civilized and 3rd world military forces.

    .................................................. ....


    FAQ
    * Q. What are the most common Russian military cartridges?

    A. 5.45x39 Soviet, 7.62x39 Soviet, 7.62x54 Soviet, 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x18 Makarov, and 14.5 ( pretty much the same thing as the .50BMG.

    * Q. Are all AKs full-auto?

    A. No. Most civilian ones are semi-auto, and military ones have different rates of fire. AKs are very common in my life, and when I here of an AK rifle, I think of a semi-auto rifle.

    * Q. Is the AK the best combat rifle in the world?

    A. Different strokes for different folks. In short, no. The newer HK assault rifles, such as the SL-8, G-36, M-91 etc. are better then AKs in every way. Lighter, better balance, tougher, more reliable and accurate.

    * Q. I herd their is such thing as a shotgun AK. Is this true.

    A. Yes. It's called the Saiga. They make it in 12 gauge and 410 gauge.

    * Q. Is Mikhail Kalashnikove still alive? If so, what kind of guy is he?

    A. Last I checked, he is still alive. I have seen interviews with him and him interacting with people. Seams like an average Joe.

    * Q. Do they make a .22LR AK?

    A. Yes. Armscor makes an AK-22.

    * Q. Are Original Mosin Nagent rifles available to US citizens on the market?

    A. Yes. Big 5 Sporting Goods carries them.

    * Q. What is the difference between the German and Russian Makarov pistol?

    A. Their are quite a few. The main ones are that the Russian one usually comes with adjustable sights and can take double stack magazines.

    * Q. Is the 9x18 Makarov the same thing as the 9mm Luger/Para?

    A. No. The 9mm Luger is the 9x19. The .380ACP is the 9x17, so the 9x18 is perfectly in between the 9mm Luger and .380ACP.

    * Q. Is it true that the Russians used a magnum powered semi-auto handgun.

    A. You could say that. The 7.62x25 Tokarev is well considered a magnum powered handgun round, and has been used by the Russians.

    * Q. What was the finest rifle ever used by the Russians?

    A. Like anything, it depends upon what for. In general, I myself find the SVD to be the finest.

    * Q. What is the finest pistol the Russians ever used?

    A. Alike the above, it all depends. I THINK the Russians used the CZ-52 at some point. If so, I would say that would be it, hands down. If not, then probably a cross between the Makarov and the Tokarev.

    * Q. Is the Makarov pistol simply called the Makarov, or is their another name for it?

    A. The real name for it is the Baikal IJ-70.

    * Q. Did the Russians ever make SMGs?

    A. Yes, they made some of the finest ever. One older model is called the PPSH-41. They also make one that is just as good ( maybe even better ) called the Bizon.
    The PPSH-41 was made in 7.62x25 Tokarev. The Bizon is made in .380ACP, 9x18 Makarov, 9mm Luger and 7.62x25 Tokarev.


    * Q. Is Russian military ammo really damp, blackish, or is that just for movies?

    A. The Russians use steel cased ammo for economic reasons. It has a dark green ( almost grayish ) corrosion resistant coating on it. They also sometimes use a cheaper, thinner brass, although you usually see this in the hands of middle eastern forces.

    * Q. Do the Russians make any hunting ammo for civilians that fit military rifles?

    A. Yes, they have a few companies who do, although most of them are nothing more then military surplus ammo with holes drilled in the tips. Wolf and Bear are the most common companies who make this ammo, although others do as well.

    * Q. Are their any Russian companies who make airguns?

    A. Yes, IZH, and Anics make airguns.

    * Q. Is it true that AK-47 Ammo bounces around in peoples bodies when they hit?

    A. In short, no. Any bullet can change course upon impact, and the 5.45x39 is no exception in either direction.
    This rumor generally comes from 2 sources. One is that .22LR and .22 Magnum bullets have been known to swish around in peoples skulls and be a bit better about course changing then most bullets. The other ( and most relevant ) is that the 55gr 5.56 bullet was designed very specifically to work with the M-16s rifling to rotate when traveling, causing it to split in to two pieces of twisted metal upon impact with bone, which then will spin around through the targets body like blenders wrecking havoc. However, this round will only do this when fired from the M-16/AR-15 and only 55gr or lighter ball bullets.

    * Q. What is the overall best combat rifle round?

    A. Opinions differ. To the best of my studies and experience, I would have to go with the 8mm Mauser, followed closely by the 7.62x51 NATO/.308. Unfortunately, few good combat rifles exist in 8mm Mauser, while many exist in 7.62 NATO.

    * Q. Are their any bullets ( Russian or not ) that are listed as one caliber but are truly another?

    A. Yes. The .380ACP is actually .355 ( .36 Caliber ), the .38 Special is actually .357 ( .36 caliber ), the .44 Magnum is actually a .430 ( .43 Caliber ) and the .50BMG is actually 510 ( .51 Caliber.
    Their are many others, but that's just a few.
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  2. #2
    JJ
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    I didn't read it carefully, I am sorry I am using my friend's computer and we are drinking some beer but I see at least 2 mistakes. First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme. Second, they make Saiga in 12, 20, and .410 gauge.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

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    Somebody get on the phone to Michael Moore. He needs to make a documentary about this guy
    Море удачи и дачу у моря

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    Russian Firarms
    Еловое вооружение русских :Ы:

  5. #5
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    First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme.
    They do have quite a few differences, but none the less, the AK-47 was based on it.
    Go search around, their is quite a bit of information on the relationship between the 2 rifles.


    Somebody get on the phone to Michael Moore. He needs to make a documentary about this guy
    LOL. I'de love to have my way with that guy. He's a total nutcase.

    Second, they make Saiga in 12, 20, and .410
    Yes. They also make the Saiga in .308 and other rifle chamberings. EAA imports quite a few different variants of the Saiga.

    you can look at what the Saiga is made in here at these links:

    http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/r ... ndex.shtml

    http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/s ... ndex.shtml
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    Re: Russian Firarms

    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    AK-47
    Overall length: 870mm
    Length of barrel: 415mm
    Length of sighting line: 378mm
    Weight of magazine empty: .42kg
    Weight of magazine loaded: .92kg
    Overall weight with loaded magazine: 4.8kg
    Chamber pressure: 4550psi
    The 7.62mm kalashnikov rifle fire a 7.2662mm round and one ...
    Muzzel velocity: 710m/s, 2380ft/s
    Specified rate of fire: 600 rounds per minute
    600 rounds per minute, 600 rounds per minute
    Service ammunition is divided into full cartridge and special purpose cartridge
    Full ammunition is used to destroy personel
    Special ammunition depending upton its construction is designed for target
    identification and correction of fire, ignition of fuel and hightly flammable objects and for destroying lightly armoured targets.
    Tracer cartridges are used for target indication, fire adjustment, signal purposes and destroying personel. And destroying personel.
    Tracer bullets can ignite, can ignite
    The path of the bullet is indicated by a red flame.
    AP incendary cartridges are used for destroying fuel, gasoline and for
    destroying targets protected by thin armour
    The standard cartridge for the AK-47 is the M43
    Bullet weight: 122 grains
    Powder weight: 25 grains
    Standard markings: full ... and ... No colour
    Tracer model: 3453?
    API model BZ: black and red tip
    Special cartridges: Plastic blank with metal case
    Finland: Red, Germany: Black, Egypt: White.
    Shortrange cartridges: full, round nosed, laquered steel case, white tip.
    Tracer: round nosed, laquered steel case, white about green tip.

    There are three basic models of the AK;
    AK47: Machine receiver, no bayonet lug, polished bolt and bolt carrier, side ...
    AKM: Stamped receiver, bayonet lug, ... bolt, ... tail full grip, side a...
    RPK: Squad MMG, larger barrel, equiped with 70 round drum loading, 40
    round box magazine or may even a 74 round magazine. Despite those specifications, its ....
    Extensive experiance ... approx 800 rounds per minute.

    Destroy personel
    Destroy personel
    Destroy personel

    Finland Red, Egypt White - lyrics by Sisters of Mercy

  7. #7
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    Here is some history of the AK-47 from different angles:

    http://www.vodka47.com/biography.htm

    http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/AK-47

    Like most guns of that time, the AK-47 was developed off of a series of techknowledgies, which many of came directly from the STG-44, which the AK-47 was mostly structured after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme.
    They do have quite a few differences, but none the less, the AK-47 was based on it.
    Go search around, their is quite a bit of information on the relationship between the 2 rifles.
    The only similarity between the two is the gas action and some external similarity. The rest is totally different. Gas action is not something that first appeared on StG-44, and the looks, well... the Mosin riffle mentioned above is very similar to, say, Mauser K98 -- does that mean the Mauser was based on the Mosin?
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    You confirmed exactly what I stated about the relationship between the AK and the STG-44, in addition to the placement of the gas system ( or would the M-1 Carbine or Garands have made better sense?
    The Mosin Nagent and Mauser K-98 are later evolutions of much deeper design evolution. Ultimately, the Enfield .303 Rifles, Springfield M-1903, Mauser K-98 and Mosin Nagent have intertwined history behind their designs, among other Bolt-Actions.
    At the time of the AK-47, their was little history to go by regarding gas-operated rifles.
    Their are 3 main gas systems used throughout history. One is common in Europe, the other 2 are common in the US.
    The ones in the US, use a rotating bolt and are operated by a bolt carrier. The rotating bolt, you could say is literally the same sort of bolt as on a bolt-action rifle, except in stead of having a handle, it USUALLY just has a connector that fits in to the bolt carrier, which then operates the bolt. These actions usually have the gas piston below the barrel ( see the M-1 Garand and M-14 ) or occasionally, on the side, such as the M-1 Carbine. The gas piston or ram is impacted by gas and pressed against the bolt carrier, launching it back cycling the action.
    Another is the same thing, except instead of having a gas piston or gas ram in a separate housing ( the tub seen on top of AK barrels, or below M-1 Garand barrels ), it is located on the bolt carrier it's self, where the gas is channeled directly against it, cycling the action. The M-16 and Desert Eagle use this sort of action.
    European action is much different. It has a straight bolt, which puts shells in to the chamber just like a recoil operated firearm. The bolt is locked down by a straight moving bolt carrier, which USUALLY goes forward after the bolt has chambered a round, locking the action down while at it. Then the gas ram is charged by gas/gun blast and presses against the gas piston, launching the bolt carrier back, cycling the action.
    Their are 2 different variants, an open one and a closed one. At the time, the only true examples their were of the open one were the G-43 and the VERY NEWLY designed SKS.
    The only example of the closed one was the STG-44. Mikhail Kalashnikove very specifically chose to do a closed action design, and the therefore, based it after that of the STG-44.
    The rest of the gun was built entirely on notes and various characteristics of that evolution series, which had been under way for a few years.
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    Re: Russian Firarms

    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    HISTORY

    Mosin Nagent M-91
    Although ugly as sin and cheap to buy ( sometimes as little as $39.99 ), the Mosin Nagent M-91 has probably made more determination of the worlds fate then any other rifle has all on it's own.
    M-91 stands for: Model 1891.
    In Russia, it was was called "Трёхлинейная винтовка образца 1891 года" Later Soviet modifications were called Mosin Rifle Model 1891/1930.


    It was a scrawny and "funky" looking rifle, yet high quality for it's time and chambered for the 7.62x54 Soviet cartridge, the .300 Win Mag of it's day.
    Soviet cartridge in 1891? It was a Russian cartridge .
    And, by the way, you forgot to mention that Mosin rifle was a repeater with a 5-round magazine.


    b]SKS[/b]
    The SKS was created by Sargie Simonov in 1945, as an attempt to put an affordable semi-auto main battle rifle in to soldiers hands. It was used throughout the later part of WW II and on through the cold war. It is chambered for the 7.62x39 Soviet cartridge, which was designed for the gun.
    Several errors here.
    1) Sergei Simonov
    2) SKS was created in 1944
    3) It was only used briefly durinfg WWII, and only the experimental batch made for testing purposes. It was only in 1949 that SKS became a standard issue in the Soviet Army (along with AK).
    4) The 7.62x39 rounds were not made for SKS, it is the other way around. First, the new intermediate cartridge was designed and approved for use in 1943. It is often called "cartrige model 1943" in Russia (Патрон образца 1943 года). After that, several firearm designers started making the firearms for this cartrige.

    AK-47
    AK-47 stands for: Avtomat Kalashnikove model 1947. It was created by Mikhail Kalashnikove in 1947. ...and possibly the utmost pioneer of .22 Caliber combat rifles, originally chambered for the 5.45x39 Soviet cartridge...
    They also made later models in 7.62x39 Soviet.
    The original AK-47 was designed for 7.62x39 rounds. The 5.45 ammo simply did not exist back then. Do your homework . It was AK-74 that was made for 5.45.


    * Q. Are all AKs full-auto?

    A. No. Most civilian ones are semi-auto, and military ones have different rates of fire. AKs are very common in my life, and when I here of an AK rifle, I think of a semi-auto rifle.
    You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are not AK. They are based on AK, and that's that

    * Q. Is the Makarov pistol simply called the Makarov, or is their another name for it?

    A. The real name for it is the Baikal IJ-70.
    Baikal is the name of the exportation model. The real official and original name is "Пистолет Макарова" (Makarov Pistol) or "ПМ" (PM)

    * Q. Did the Russians ever make SMGs?

    A. Yes, they made some of the finest ever. One older model is called the PPSH-41. They also make one that is just as good ( maybe even better ) called the Bizon.
    The PPSH-41 was made in 7.62x25 Tokarev. The Bizon is made in .380ACP, 9x18 Makarov, 9mm Luger and 7.62x25 Tokarev.
    There were many other models as well.



    * Q. Is it true that AK-47 Ammo bounces around in peoples bodies when they hit?

    A. In short, no. Any bullet can change course upon impact, and the 5.45x39 is no exception in either direction.
    This rumor generally comes from 2 sources. One is that .22LR and .22 Magnum bullets have been known to swish around in peoples skulls and be a bit better about course changing then most bullets. The other ( and most relevant ) is that the 55gr 5.56 bullet was designed very specifically to work with the M-16s rifling to rotate when traveling, causing it to split in to two pieces of twisted metal upon impact with bone, which then will spin around through the targets body like blenders wrecking havoc. However, this round will only do this when fired from the M-16/AR-15 and only 55gr or lighter ball bullets.
    You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    The only example of the closed one was the STG-44. Mikhail Kalashnikove very specifically chose to do a closed action design, and the therefore, based it after that of the STG-44.
    He started the design as early as in 1943, and while he obviously had seen StG-44 before 1947, saying "it was based on StG-44" is simply wrong. Gas action, closed or not, had been known for quite some time before StG-44. I may even grant you that the appearance is similar because he liked some ergonomics of StG-44, but the mechanics is totally different. Suffice it to say that you can use AK-47 to paddle through dirt for weeks and it will just work, and StG-44 had to be cleaned after every few clips, and even then it had a tendency to jam.
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

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    badmanners, how is it that you know absolutely EVERYTHING?
    What kind of Faustian deal have you struck to gain this omniscience?
    You are an expert on :
    English
    Russian (well, duh)
    dentistry
    firearms
    history (of the entire world, probably)

    and just about everything else that has ever been discussed here.

    So, if I were to strike up a discussion or write a paragraph on something really obscure, let's see, PWR nuclear reactors, you'd be able to correct several points. Right?

    Mind you, please don't think I object to your corrections, certainly not in this thread...
    Море удачи и дачу у моря

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    Quote Originally Posted by waxwing
    badmanners, how is it that you know absolutely EVERYTHING?
    What kind of Faustian deal have you struck to gain this omniscience?
    You are an expert on :
    English
    I take that as a compliment.

    Russian (well, duh)
    That too.

    dentistry
    Experienced customer. And my natural curiosity.

    firearms
    history (of the entire world, probably)
    Not the entire world, but quite a bit on anything European-related. Especially the military part of it. And firearms naturally occur there all the time -- but I do not really care much about them per se.

    something really obscure, let's see, PWR nuclear reactors, you'd be able to correct several points. Right?
    Right. I hold an advanced degree in mathematics and is deeply interested in physics (especially astrophysics and cosmology).
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

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    Of course, it was a compliment if anything, or more just an expression of surprise - but don't forget Kipling's advice about praise

    Did you get to do any fun maths/phys like relativity etc.?
    Море удачи и дачу у моря

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    He also seems to be an expert in computer programming, mind you, and at least one other European language. Although that "is" in his last sentence did seem a bit odd...

  16. #16
    JJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44 Canon
    Like most guns of that time, the AK-47 was developed off of a series of techknowledgies, which many of came directly from the STG-44, which the AK-47 was mostly structured after.
    I've read links but I found them less informative than this one - AK-47 and this one - Sturmgehver-44.
    And look at these pics:



    Don't you think the 1st and the 2nd pics are more similar than the 1st and the 3rd pics? At least they are bent both but AK is not.
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pravit
    Although that "is" in his last sentence did seem a bit odd...
    How very mean of you, Pravit. How many more typos and grave grammatical crimes have been committed by others in this very thread?
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

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    Aye, and he calls me a pedant. Cheek of it, really.
    А если отнять еще одну?

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    Alas, but there is honour among pedants!

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    Can't tell you how pleasing it is to see a 'u' in 'honour'. Kudos due.
    А если отнять еще одну?

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