Thread: Mind Your Language

Originally Posted by JB

My point is that this law is not going to protect anyone.

It is already successfully protecting people in Belgorod and has saved many of them from foulmouthed imbecils you applaud. Anyway, JB, you may be 1000 times a resident of Moscow or New Vasyuki or Old Mukhosransk but you're still a foreigner - you're not a citizen of my country so please be good enough to mind your own business. As a non-native speaker of Russian you can't even adequately feel the degree of offence of each of the "mat" words in Russian.

P.S. I'm sorry if it sounded rude but you really are poking your nose where you shouldn't. I've been hinting at it and you've been ignoring my subtle warnings, I'm sorry, I really had to tell you bluntly.

Originally Posted by TexasMark

It contrasts with many other languages, where swearing is a very dynamic and constantly changing part of the lexicon.

Sure Russian swearwords are dynamic and all, but what we're talking about here is "mat" - the core obsenities - they've stayed unchanged for centuries and won't change in our grand-grand-grand-... children's lifetime I'm sure - and they are the ones which (and whose derivatives) are considered profanity by the majority of Russian speakers. We have a pretty clear definition in Russian.

How is it protecting people? Do you live in that city? Do you see people being "saved" from the horrible consequences of hearing a few bad words?
My nose is in Russia where I live with my family. Russia IS my business and not having a red passport does not make it any less my business.

Originally Posted by JB

How is it protecting people? Do you live in that city?

I have a good friend who lives there - we keep in touch. We have ICQs you know.

Do you see people being "saved" from the horrible consequences of hearing a few bad words?

He does.

Originally Posted by JB

My nose is in Russia where I live with my family. Russia IS my business and not having a red passport does not make it any less my business.

No, JB, Russia is not your business. Only those born in Russia have a say in such matters. You're a foreigner and always will be. You want to poke your nose around, fine, I couldn't care less, but don't you be surprised if it gets punched (figuratively, of course). You're a guest JB, always remember that. Looks like the when in Rome formula has never been drilled into your head...

Sorry VM, but your friend's instant message updates of his/her opinions on the benefits of arresting rampant swearers (and yes I do understand those really bad words and phrases) is only one person's opinion. I'd like to hear the opinion of those who were actually arrested as they have rights too.
And I'm really glad that your opinion of foreigners is in the minority, because I get nothing but kindness and affection from almost everyone I associate with in Russia. I am welcomed and my opinions are solicited and respected. And the few times anyone has attempted to "punch" me have resulted in my friends, associates and sometimes even complete strangers coming to my defense.
Now where in the world does it say "only those born in Russia" are the only people who can have a say in their community? Does this include people who were born in the former Soviet Union but whose birthplace is now an independent country? What about all those people who immigrated to Russia and became citizens? Don't they have the same rights as any other Russian citizen?

Originally Posted by JB

Sorry VM, but your friend's instant message updates of his/her opinions on the benefits of arresting rampant swearers (is only one person's opinion. I'd like to hear the opinion of those who were actually arrested as they have rights too.

The only right a foul mouthed git has is put his hands up and surrender.

Originally Posted by JB

and yes I do understand those really bad words and phrases)

You understand what they mean - literally and figuratively, but you do not feel exactly how offensive they are - you have to be a native speaker to be able to feel that. You need to grow up with those words, JB. (This applies to swearing in any language. )

I dunno what sort of hobbits you hire to serve you as lackeys and, frankly, I don't care. All you need to know is that you've just been flushed from my memory. No ammount of negativism you spill on this forum wil ever change the simple truth that you envy me and would give your rotten front teeth to be me for just a few seconds. Bye-bye, JB.

P.S. Zapanibratskoe kovboilo ne razumeet do kontsa vseh intrikatsij nashenksoi zhisti - uchis', nabirais'a ekspirentsij, pochantuk podlozhen, ya esperuyu.

Give up the fairytale that only "real" Russians can "feel" the true emotion of the language and that words aren't understood on an emotional level unless you "grow up with them". Texas Mark is correct that language is constantly changing. So by your theory all those newly created bad words that teenagers are inventing and using daily will never be understood or "felt" except by the generation that grew up with them (which excludes you).
And as for your little joke, you keep pointing to your little friend and telling us how big he is and we'll keep laughing.

Originally Posted by JB

Give up the fairytale that only "real" Russians can "feel" the true emotion of the language and that words aren't understood on an emotional level unless you "grow up with them".

I didn't say "real Russians", I said native speakers of Russian. Words may indeed be understood on an emotional level but that's beside the point here - either you are and idiot, JB, or you are deliberately trying to force me to go off at a tangent - we're talking about something completely different here, namely what native speakers consider profanity and what is merely rude Russian and how native speaker feel about it. Not being a native speaker you may often surmise from the context that someone is swearing at you but you will never be able to feel the exact strength of the expressions addressed at you unless you grew up with those words. As I said before, this isn't about Russian, it's the same in any other language.

Texas Mark is correct that language is constantly changing. So by your theory all those newly created bad words that teenagers are inventing and using daily will never be understood or "felt" except by the generation that grew up with them (which excludes you).

Just proves that you know nothing about how Russian "mat" works. All newly created derivatives include a handful of roots which remain the same and are considered offensive. Any word derived from them will be understood and "felt" adequately by any native speaker of Russian, no matter when that derivative was invented. If, however, we're talking about non-mat swear words, then yes, new roots or new meanings of those non-mat roots will be truely understood only by those who grew up with them and of course, there will be cases where muggins here will be excluded along with the others of his generation. But that law is about "mat" words and their derivatives - since the roots are the same, it's a totally different story. I can see you have absolutely no idea how Russian "mat" works - you probably know some expressions but you've absolutely no idea how it functions. It's OK, you wouldn't cos you don't know that much Russian yet. I'm not saying this to offend you or anything, JB, I'm merely stating a simple fact - a person who constantly misreads my messages in Russian should not participate in discussions regarding "mat" - you don't have enough knowledge of the language yet.

And as for your little joke, you keep pointing to your little friend and telling us how big he is and we'll keep laughing.

What joke? If you're referring to what I wrote in Russian it only proves what I was saying previously - you understand nothing, not a single word of what I've been saying to you. (Polnyatskij nulevont, nichevo nye petrish.) BTW, I'm still waiting for that translation...

P.S. Could you give us some examples of "all those newly created bad words that teenagers are inventing and using daily" - I'm tired of talking in abstractions. Give us a few examples and I will explain to you why your arguments are incorrect.

The original discussion was not about any particular word or phrase but about laws prohibiting swearing in public. You seem to believe these laws only apply to a certain group of words or phrases and that the population benefits from these laws. I disagree, and my language abilities or anyone elses language abilities have nothing to do with the law (unless the law states that people who aren't native speakers are exempt from the law because they don't really understand how offensive these words are).
I don't write down or memorize the latest vulger insults and I don't translate.
My reference to your transliteration is about your personal opinion of yourself, not about the text.

Originally Posted by JB

The original discussion was not about any particular word or phrase but about laws prohibiting swearing in public. You seem to believe these laws only apply to a certain group of words or phrases and that the population benefits from these laws.

That's what this law is about - it's about banning "mat" from public places. It states very clearly in Russian what exactly is meant under the term. It's the English translation by the BBC that blurs this distinction - apparently you drew your conclusions from there. You read that article in English at the BBC website and you drew your false conclusions from the word "swearing" whereas in Russian they state very clearly that they mean "mat". A native speaker reading that article would immidiately understand that in the original (that is in Russian) they talk about "mat" and "mat" derivatives because a native speaker has a lot of cultural baggage you don't have (and never will with this kind of attitude of yours) which would've enabled him to come to this logical conclusion. And indeed, if you do a search around Russian websites you will see that they talk about "мат" or "ненормативная лексика" (which is legal goobledygook for "mat" and its derivatives). As usual, JB, you are ignorant, but opinionated.

I don't write down or memorize the latest vulger insults

And there was me thinking you did. I wonder why the word "windbag" suddenly springs to mind...

and I don't translate

Cos you can't.

My reference to your transliteration is about your personal opinion of yourself, not about the text.

Of course, JB, and I wonder why. Is it because you didn't understand a bloody word, is it? Is it?

I'm not quoting the rest of your post - it was irrelevant BS.

VM, I'm not asking this because I am looking for an argument or taking sides or anything of that sort, I am asking because I am genuinely interested in your opinion as a native Russian speaker who evidently feels strongly about the subject.

Firstly, would I be correct in believing that the word 'мат' is indeed derived from the word 'мать', as a result of so much of the syntax involving someone's mother (stated or implied) having unspeakable things (stated or implied) done to them by a third party (stated or implied)? I have read that that is the case (in a book written by a Russian), but I would be happy to be set straight if this information was incorrect or lacking in any way.

Secondly, with regards to the current topic itself as well as my own previous question, what actually constitutes 'мат', in your opinion?

The reason I ask is, a couple of my Russian mates here in Blighty (ex-pats, but only recent ex-pats) regularly use a few expressions which I had to have explained to me the first time I heard them. They don't contain any words that could be considered profane on their own, but as a sentence they imply a profanity (of course, these are generaly mixed in with many more sentences that obviously do contain stated profanity). I can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure I can remember one or two of them (because their translations made me laugh).

(Now you see, I don't even know whether I should post it here and risk bringing down Masteradmin's wrath, but since I don't know how to give an example without posting it, I will risk getting myself ticked off and censored):

"мать твою через семь ворот с присвистом"*

So, would that constitute мат in your book?

Enlighten away, Laddo.

*Sorry if I've broken your rules Masteradmin, but since finding out where those rules lie (in a general sense) was my only motivation for posting it, I'm sure you'll forgive me

Originally Posted by scotcher

Firstly, would I be correct in believing that the word 'мат' is indeed derived from the word 'мать', as a result of so much of the syntax involving someone's mother (stated or implied) having unspeakable things (stated or implied) done to them by a third party (stated or implied)? I have read that that is the case (in a book written by a Russian), but I would be happy to be set straight if this information was incorrect or lacking in any way.

I've heard a similar explanation. However, I don't know the exact etymology of the word.

Secondly, with regards to the current topic itself as well as my own previous question, what actually constitutes 'мат', in your opinion?

Мат is made of a handful of basic roots, such as е**ть, х*й, п***а and their countless derivatives. (Countless derivatives are possible because of the way the Russian language works with all them suffixes and prefixes, I'm sure you know that.). "Implied" мат is not "мат" but fruity word play.

"мать твою через семь ворот с присвистом"*

No, that's not мат. I wouldn't even call that swearing. It sounds like an elaborate euphimism. If you want to swear proper use proper мат.

Righto, cheers for the explanation.

So if мат is concerned with the words you mentioned and their endless derivatives (of which I am aware of dozens at least, even with my limited experience of Russian drinking establishments and building sites), what constitutes 'swearing', and what differentiates it from мат?

Are you talking about mild curse-cum-interjections like блин or ёлки-палки, or is there another layer above which is rude enough to be considered swearing, but is still not мат?

Originally Posted by scotcher

So if мат is concerned with the words you mentioned and their endless derivatives (of which I am aware of dozens at least, even with my limited experience of Russian drinking establishments and building sites), what constitutes 'swearing', and what differentiates it from мат?
Are you talking about mild curse-cum-interjections like блин or ёлки-палки, or is there another layer above which is rude enough to be considered swearing, but is still not мат?

This is how I see it:

• 1. мат

• 2. common swearing[list:1vhjhj6b]2.1. dirty non-мат swear words like засранец*, мудак*, сука*, etc

• 2.2. milder swear words like придурок, дебил, etc.

[/list:u:1vhjhj6b]

• 3. euphimisms [list:1vhjhj6b]3.1.мат substitutes[list:1vhjhj6b]3.1.1. obvious мат substitutes

• 3.1.2. not-so-obvious мат substitues

[/list:u:1vhjhj6b]3.2. dirty non-мат swear words substitutes[/list:u:1vhjhj6b]

• 3.3. jocular swear words which don't really offend

Now, there are also religious curses but those will offend only very religious people. Since I'm not religious they don't offend me at all.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

This is how I see it:

• 1. мат

• 2. common swearing[list:1tlog7lz]2.1. dirty non-мат swear words like засранец*, мудак*, сука*, etc

• 2.2. milder swear words like придурок, дебил, etc.

[/list:u:1tlog7lz]

• 3. euphimisms [list:1tlog7lz]3.1.мат substitutes[list:1tlog7lz]3.1.1. obvious мат substitutes

• 3.1.2. not-so-obvious мат substitues

[/list:u:1tlog7lz]3.2. dirty non-мат swear words substitutes[/list:u:1tlog7lz][list]3.3. jocular swear words which don't really offend

Wow. Swearing is Russian is complicated. Maybe they should be giving those that can master it diplomas, not tickets.

Most people swear very plainly, items 1-2 in the list above. Those few who master 3 can be fun to listen.

A law that forbids anyone from using a certain group of words in public is just a cash cow for the cops and government. It doesn't matter if the law states only the mat words or yolki polki. The cop gets to decide on the spot who is guilty and collect the fine he thinks is appropriate (one newspaper quoted one cop as saying he charged more for swearing in front of veterans). If the cop says a mat word was used there is no way to dispute it even if no swear words were used at all.
I did not derive my opinions from the BBC link because I never read it until now. I read about that law in the Russian news (both English and Russian) way before it was posted here. My original reaction was to feel sorry for all the young males in that city who are now going to have to pay hefty fines for nothing. I wish the cops would spend more effort cleaning out the corruption in their own ranks than fleecing the citizens.
VM, I am not a translator. I do not translate Russian or Spanish (and I have spoken Spanish since grammer school). I understand and speak Russian, but do not waste my time playing "who's the best speaker" games.

How is мат pronounced differently from мать? Could someone record them both so I can hear it?

Originally Posted by DimitriiPetrovich

How is мат pronounced differently from мать? Could someone record them both so I can hear it?

http://www.freewebs.com/friendy3/sounds/mat.mp3
the first word is "мат" the second word is "мать"

Originally Posted by JB

A law that forbids anyone from using a certain group of words in public is just a cash cow for the cops and government. It doesn't matter if the law states only the mat words or yolki polki.

It does indeed. This is where I vehemently disagree with you. Since you are not a Russian citizen, and this is about a law being enforced by Russian cops in the Russian city of Belgorod, your opinion counts for nothing.

The cop gets to decide on the spot who is guilty and collect the fine he thinks is appropriate (one newspaper quoted one cop as saying he charged more for swearing in front of veterans).

And that's what I call good policing. Ever heard of Gleb Zhiglov? Russia needs more Zhiglovs.

If the cop says a mat word was used there is no way to dispute it even if no swear words were used at all.

Oh yes there is. I already know of people getting off scot free. Pity.

My original reaction was to feel sorry for all the young males in that city who are now going to have to pay hefty fines for nothing.

Using "mat" in public is not a "nothing" in the eyes of the majority of Russians. The opinion of a foreigner is totally irrelevant here.

I wish the cops would spend more effort cleaning out the corruption in their own ranks than fleecing the citizens.

I wish the cops put your blasphemous mouth under arrest. If you want to accuse someone particular of corruption do so. What, you can't? All you lot are good for is tossing the name of our glorious police around. And what do you do when disaster strikes? Eh? You scream for police, don't you? I suggest you read the preface to chapter 1 of Filth by Irvine Welsh, where that young man is dying: pleeeeeeaaaaaaase .... or is it poliiiiiiiiiiiice? please police?

I understand and speak Russian, but do not waste my time playing "who's the best speaker" games.

This is not a "who's the best speaker game", this is a simple comprehension check. A check you've been failing ever since I started writing in Russian to you - your replies have always been a) in English, b) completely мимо денег.

VM, I am not a translator. I do not translate Russian or Spanish (and I have spoken Spanish since grammer school).

(с) Чукча не читатель, чукча писатель, однако. (Hope you know where this one's from)