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Thread: History Lesson

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    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    History Lesson

    Firstly I want to mention the following statements with which the majority of educated people agrees:

    1. "Historical truth is consider what is written in the majority of school/university learning academic books in the majority of schools/universities on the planet in the majority of countries".


    2. "The Historical Truth can change only be revealing new findings regarding it"


    3. "The existence of Historical Truth is important in order to avoid chaos. Otherwise no international law or institution would be able to function properly (e.g. United Nations, International Courts) "

    4. "Each person has the right to believe anything he/she wants but personal opinion could never be a scientific finding".


    Example 1st:
    If in the majority of countries in the majority of historical academic books is written that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was an excellent charismatic Turkish leader that reformed Turkey, this is the Historical Truth even if Greeks and Armenians disagree due the massive massacres of their populations under his commands that took place in the period 1915 - 1925. Correct?

    Example 2nd:
    If the majority of academics globally (in the majority of schools/ universities, in the majority of countries) agrees that Stalin was a ruthless bloodthirsty dictator, this is the Historical Truth even if all Russians disagree. Correct?

    Example 3rd:
    Henry Kissinger was considered one of the most talented and capable Foreign Ministers of USA. For this reason he was also awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. During the 80s when the role of CIA in South America under the guidelines of Kissinger was revealed by journalists and academics this Historical Truth changed. The new Historical Truth says that he was a ruthless politician linked with many International Crimes against Humanity even if Americans disagree.
    Correct?

    Saying these I have the following questions (please don't use inaccuracies regarding the dates because Wikipedia will reveal to me the Historical Truth):

    1. When historically Slavs came to settle to the Balkans? From where they came?
    2. If Ukrainians exist as a different nation when they came to settle in the area which is today Ukraine.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    Почтенный гражданин Suobig's Avatar
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    Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was an excellent charismatic Turkish leader
    Stalin was a ruthless bloodthirsty dictator
    History doens't come to that kind of conclusions. You would never find such terms in any good historical book.
    People who study history come to that kind of conclusions

    As Indira Gandhi said — "History is the best teacher with the most ignorant pupils".
    I know it's "MR" not "ME", but still: fix my english mistakes, please!

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    Anticipating an ardent debate and argument, especially since the name of Stalin has been mentioned, I may quickly suggest some considerations on q.2.

    Kiev, the present capital of Ukraine, was the first known center of Eastern Slavic activity. So it was inhabited by Slavs long before Moscow and what is today's central European part of Russia. Kiev is often dubbed as The Cradle of the Slavic culture. The term historians have been using is Киевская Русь.

    Certainly, there could not be a word Ukranian and Ukraine (which is a modern word) at that time. As you know one the traditional etimologies of the word Украина is The Frontier Land (край), meaning the frontier of the land (state).

    So people of Eastern Slavic origin (ancestors of today's Ukranians, Belarussians, and Russians) settled in Kiev and created a culture there prior to moving in all directions (west, south and north) due to a number of reasons (such as raids by nomads of Turkic origin).

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    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    I agree.
    But I suppose you don't disagree that the dates are standard based on the definition I provided (i.e. what the majority of academics believed based on scientific and historical evidence).
    In 1939 the Second World War started. This is a fact. This a historical true. Correct?
    The French Revolution started in 1789. This is a fact. This is a historical true. Correct?
    Julius Caesar was killed in 44 BC by Brutus. This is a fact. This is a historical true. Correct?
    In 221 BC China was unified by Shih Huang Ti. This is a fact. This is a historical true. Correct?

    For this reason I repeat my main question (to everyone). What they teach you in Russian schools.
    1. When Slavs came to settle in the Balkan (Period of Time)?
    2. When Ukrainians (if the exist as a different nation) came to live in the are where is today Ukraine?
    Also I add an other more general question:
    1. Is there any map showing the historical movement of Slavs tribes. From where they started? When they started? How they expand to the different countries?

    My question is historical. I don't want a debate with anyone.

    I am not asking for opinion I am asking of what they are teaching you in Russian and other schools. For me is very important.
    In my schools they don't teach us anything about Slavs.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    Anticipating an ardent debate and argument, especially since the name of Stalin has been mentioned, I may quickly suggest some considerations on q.2.

    Kiev, the present capital of Ukraine, was the first known center of Eastern Slavic activity. So it was inhabited by Slavs long before Moscow and what is today's central European part of Russia. Kiev is often dubbed as The Cradle of the Slavic culture. The term historians have been using is Киевская Русь.

    Certainly, there could not be a word Ukranian and Ukraine (which is a modern word) at that time. As you know one the traditional etimologies of the word Украина is The Frontier Land (край), meaning the frontier of the land (state).

    So people of Eastern Slavic origin (ancestors of today's Ukranians, Belarussians, and Russians) settled in Kiev and created a culture there prior to moving in all directions (west, south and north) due to a number of reasons (such as raids by nomads of Turkic origin).
    Are there any dates (or periods of time) for these historical facts?
    I don't want a debate.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    Well, Antonio, the 9th century is often cited as the beginning of Kiev Rus period. The Baptism of Russia is 988. So it's 9th-10th cent. when Kiev is certainly active.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    Well, Antonio, the 9th century is often cited as the beginning of Kiev Rus period. The Baptism of Russia is 988. So it's 9th-10th cent. when Kiev is certainly active.
    Any idea of when the Slavs expanded ton the Balkan or where I can found a reliable information saying these.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    So that's basically what they teach in Russian schools about Kiev.
    As for your first question, all I remember is just some names of different Slavic tribes. There is a group distinguished as Southern Slavic peoples, but I don't remember dates and record of their settling in the Balkans.
    They teach more about Russians here of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    So that's basically what they teach in Russian schools about Kiev.
    As for your first question, all I remember is just some names of different Slavic tribes. There is a group distinguished as Southern Slavic peoples, but I don't remember dates and record of their settling in the Balkans.
    They teach more about Russians here of course.
    Spasibo za tvoiu pomosh'. Ya uzhe prochital o Kievskom Rusi.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    I may try to answer your question about Balkans)). Wikipedia may provide some links, they can be checked for reliable sources.
    So it takes time to find good sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    I may try to answer your question about Balkans)). Wikipedia may provide some links, they can be checked for reliable sources.
    So it takes time to find good sources.
    I will also try to find an answer.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    In 1939 the Second World War started. This is a fact. This a historical true. Correct?
    It is generally assumed so but in fact it's not true. Stalin had said in his summary report of the XVIII congress of the Communist Party in March of 1939:
    "Уже второй год идет новая империалистическая война, разыгравшаяся на громадной территории от Шанхая до Гибралтара и захватившая более 500 миллионов населения. Насильственно перекраивается карта Европы, Африки, Азии."
    Отчетны& #x439; доклад на XVIII съезде партии о работ
    So, according to his point of view from that historical period of time, the WWII began in 1937.
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    Почётный участник eisenherz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    Saying these I have the following questions (please don't use inaccuracies regarding the dates because Wikipedia will reveal to me the Historical Truth):

    1. When historically Slavs came to settle to the Balkans? From where they came?
    2. If Ukrainians exist as a different nation when they came to settle in the area which is today Ukraine.

    since you want no debate, nor any answers other than Wikipedia, then just consult Wikipedia
    please always correct my (often poor) russian

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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenherz View Post
    since you want no debate, nor any answers other than Wikipedia, then just consult Wikipedia
    Nope.
    I just want guidelines to start consulting Wikipedia or any other source (preferably academic).

    For example.
    "I don't have a clue for the American Civil War"
    Answer: The American Civil War started on 1861. It was between South and North. The reason for fighting was ...
    This is called guidelines.
    I just want guidelines.
    When I say I don't want debate I mean I don't want to fight with anyone. I don't have a clue about the things I am asking and I just want to learn when I discuss with Russians in order to learn more. In this forum every attempt to learn new things is translated as an "assault".
    For me discussion and debate are different words.
    Wikipedia includes about 1000 pages about the issue. I don't have the time to read every one of them.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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    If you don't have time to read, watch the picture:



    According to it Slavic expansion to Balkans occurred in V-VIII centuries.
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    In the VI-th century the territory of Slavic peoples was presumably as shown here:

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    Увлечённый спикер bytemare's Avatar
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    It's quite difficult to avoid a debate when you're opening statement itself is debatable, ie "majority of educated people agree." I would guess the majority of "educated" people (what does educated mean? high school? college degree? something else?) have not actually contemplated what the phrase "historical truth" means.

    Actually I think you can be quite uneducated and understand what is written in wikipedia.

    By the way I think that the definition you've presented would classify several religions as historical truth.
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    2. When Ukrainians (if the exist as a different nation) came to live in the are where is today Ukraine?
    If you mean the central and western parts of the modern Ukraine, Ukrainians didn't come to live there from anywhere. They have always lived there. Ukrainians arose from ancient Russian people who fell under the rule of Poles, the Lithuanian and Austrian people. The very word "Ukraine" ("Украина" in Russian) is a dialectic variant of the Russian word "окраина" (or maybe its Polish equivalent), which means "outskirts", "outlying districts". So, the word "Ukrainians" actually meant the people living on the outskirts of the country. The modern use of this word denoting ethnicity arose somewhere in the end of the XIX century. Before that such words as "Малороссия" (Small Russia) and "Малорос" were usually used to denote the territory of the central part of the modern Ukraine and people who lived there.
    The eastern and south parts of the modern Ukraine were scarcely inhabited until they were joined to Russian Empire in the XVII and XVIII centuries. Then these territories were populated with immigrants from the central parts of Russia, from the central and western parts of the territory of modern Ukraine and from the Don's Cossaks' territory. So the population of these territories is very mixed - you can find here people speaking Russian, Ukrainian or a mixture of the languages, called in Russian "суржик".
    The historical study of ancient Russian language shows that the detachment of the Ukrainian dialect from the ancient Russian happened somewhere in the XIV century. Before that time there is probably no sense to speak about Ukrainians as a self-dependent nation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeMak View Post
    In the VI-th century the territory of Slavic peoples was presumably as shown here:

    This is exactly what I was asking.
    Thank you SergeMak.

    So the Slavs are a branch of the Indo-European peoples.
    They were living as different tribes in an area where is the today Ukraine. From where they come from? From India? From Siberia?
    One of these tribes were Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, Bulgarians and etc. These tribes in the 6th century had different names? (i.e. the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Bulgarians etc were not called like this at that time)
    They start immigrating as the map shows after the 6th to the different areas where today are the Slavic countries (e.g. Russia, Bulgaria, ex-Serbia etc).
    Can I say with safety that before the 6th century Slavs didn't have any position to countries were they were living ancient tribes such as Celts, Romans and Greeks etc?
    Their first formal state (i.e. something above tribe system) was the Древнерусское государство Русь or the Киевская Русь. From this state they start expanding until Vladivostok. Correct?

    Three additional historical questions:
    1. When historically Slavs formed a common alphabet based on the Greek alphabet?
    2. When they become Christians?
    3. When the tsars came in to power? (I think there are two dynasties).

    P.S. The statements that I used to start this post don't belong to me. The belong to great philosophers such as Kuhn, Quine, Feyerabend etc and they describe the existence of scientific paradigms. This is a school of thought supported by the majority of scientists. Also the greatest philosophers of our time before relativists seem to support the school that: "what exists, that is true". Quine for bytemare who is asking said that paradigms cannot explain religions (and also that religion does not have anything to do with science.
    Regarding the begining of WWII in 1937 I think that everyone disagrees except from that who say it. Based on my undersdanging WWII started in 1918 when the Versailles tready was signed (this is just an opinion. As I said opinions are respected but they don't make history).
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

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