Thread: Rosetta Stone (version 3)

PaulB,

Greetings... While Lt. Columbo may have sited only one TV program, there are several studies/articles out there that support the idea that there is a "learning window" for language and it is from age birth to approx. age 10.

Newsweek Magazine, from February 19, 1996, with the cover being "Your Child's Brain" discussed this issue stating that, "A child taught a second language after the age of 10 or so is unlikely ever to speak it like a native."
http://www.gymboreeturkey.com/pdf/yo...n_newsweek.pdf

In the Februrary 3, 1997, issue of Time Magazine, cover article, FERTILE MINDS, stated "The ability to learn a second language is highest between birth and the age of six, then undergoes a steady and inexorable decline. Many adults still manage to learn new languages, but usually only after great struggle."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...5854-9,00.html

Here is another article from the University of Maine http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/4356.htm

And here is a special report from the National Science Foudation
http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_repo...tics/learn.jsp

I wish you good luck with your language endeavors.

the thing is, ill never believe that an adult can acquire language like a child, regardless of any study. ive never seen and never will, an adult that has become native fluent by using these rosetta-esque methods.
i have taught myself russian, am fluent and work as a translator in moscow. i know what it takes and how long it takes (although i still work on it daily). (i can relate to the great struggle mentioned by rockzmom)

forget the endless research, learning russian will require time, patience and will not be easy (unless you're Ukrainian). you can experiment with expensive programs if you like, but you'd be better off getting a solid self teaching book.

if you do try some new, dynamic methods and have some success, post them here

Ok, I won't argue about it any more, particularly since you start with the position that evidence doesn't matter. Also I envy your competence in Russian. My own progress has been pretty slow, but the time I spend on it has been pretty limited. I certainly agree that mastery takes a lot of time and effort.

To rockzmom, I'm aware of what you are talking about of course (see the linked article on critical period hypothesis), but the fact that adults are less successful at learning new languages is not really germane to the question of what methods are appropriate to teaching an additional language to adults, which is what I do.

If children are much more successful at learning language than adults, and the methods used by adults are radically different than those used by children, then it seems at least possible that traditional language teaching methods are less than ideal.

well it depends on the "guy". some are good with languages, some are not. those who are good, learn faster and all. I know one guy who is. he bought a self-study book, and studied almost everyday. and he really was good, I mean VERY GOOD. he learned to speak it very well, and when he went to visit the country, people said he was speaking like a native speaker.

and this guy is not me (for those who wonder if this was one of those " one of my friend...")
the amazing thing is, that he learned it so fast. it took like 1-4 years. (well, he studied almost everyday, at least he said so, and I saw him almost always with the textbook or watching movies or anything related to the language.)

if Im talking about languages with someone, I always tell about this "language-guy"

I think, that some people can learn the language very well with some programs (like rosetta or something else)
and I know that some people can learn it with self-study books

Originally Posted by gospodin

I think, that some people can learn the language very well with some programs (like rosetta or something else)
and I know that some people can learn it with self-study books

It may be helpful, but not enough to learn the language very well. Especially self-study books. When I had read these books (except dictionaries)I could read and understand pretty well but I couldn't understand a word watching a movie.

It may be helpful (what may? books or rosetta), but not enough to learn the language very well. Especially self-study books (what does this refer to). When I had read these books (except dictionaries) (what happened when you read these books? was it helpful or not)

just trying to clear the sentence up a bit

'Learning language like a native does' sounds great in theory, but I don't think you can compare an infant acquiring a their first language while entirely immersed in it with an adult trying to acquire a second language in 30 minute chunks. Roseta Stone and other purveyors of expensive accelerated learning systems that forego grammar have always just struck me as snake-oil salesmen playing on people's natural laziness and desire for miraculous no-effort results.

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

It may be helpful (what may? books or rosetta)

Both.

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

Especially self-study books (what does this refer to).

To "not enough to learn the language very well".

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

When I had read these books (except dictionaries) (what happened when you read these books? was it helpful or not)

When I had read these books I could read and understand pretty well, so it was helpful, but I couldn't understand a word watching a movie, so it was not enough to learn the language very well.

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

just trying to clear the sentence up a bit

Is it clearer now?

ya, it's clear now

I stumbled across this site whilst looking for other means to study Russian, and found this thread pretty interesting for what it says about adult language learning.

I'm 35 and have had a nodding acquaintance with Russian for quite a few years. Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods. Initially I used just straight vocabulary tapes, but got frustrated as it didn't cover the construction of sentences. So I couldn't see it's effectiveness for someone new to the language. I also tried Russian in 10 Minutes a Day, but also found that frustrating as I became sort of familiar with the text, but that still required some decyphering and I found it hard to imagine how the words should sound.

I only recently come across Pimsleur and listened to that quite a bit on my hour long drives to and from work. I found that struck a happy medium for me as it covered pronounciation as well as basic grammar - differnent endings for words depending on situation/target. For any words that I am unsure of the exact pronounciation I can look them up and work it out from the spelling. I'm currently only half way through level one, so I'm still completely new.

So it's interesting what lt. columbo (i think) said previously about sitting down and studying the grammar from books. Is this really the best way? Because studying grammar was an arduous exercise even in my native language, something I don't fully have a grasp upon even now. Also books wouldnt really give you 'feel' of the language and how it rolls off the tongue. So is there any happy medium to be found?

My intention for my studies is to carry on the way I am - with a product that I feel has an adequate mix of both vocabulary and grammar. At least letting you know that there are differences and when they apply, but just not so much why. Once a good basic grasp of conversation is attained, start studying the grammar side and written word closer. Otherwise I found to get bogged down in the details at such an early stage can potentially stifle matters - including trying to read from sight.

I would appreciate any comments more experienced - or inexperienced for that matter - people would have on this approach. Does it sound acceptable or am I on completely the wrong track and doomed for failure?

Many Thanks

Matt

Originally Posted by Pug505GR

Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods.

There's no suitable method if you're short of patience.

Originally Posted by studyr

Originally Posted by Pug505GR

Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods.

There's no suitable method if you're short of patience.

It's not that I'm short of patience. I quite enjoy it and appreciate that it doesn't happen overnight.

But sometimes lifestyles change where you are unable to dedicate the time to something. That has been my situation. I haven't stopped due to lack of progress. Try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and see how much energy you have for other activities. Add children etc into the equation and you will begin to appreciate why I've had rather spasmodic prorgress.

So out of my lengthy post, have you any other advice besides patience?

Matt

I'll tell you about my experience. A school program gave me almost nothing. Later I had read English self-taught and some reading books. Step-by-step it became my hobby. I was reading everything from "Caution! Risk of electric shock!" at rear panel of my TV set to "Hamlet". Now I use to watch movies with subtitles. If you need plane and easy texts for beginning I advice to start with fairy tales and short stories for children.

Originally Posted by studyr

I'll tell you about my experience. A school program gave me almost nothing. Later I had read English self-taught and some reading books. Step-by-step it became my hobby. I was reading everything from "Caution! Risk of electric shock!" at rear panel of my TV set to "Hamlet". Now I use to watch movies with subtitles. If you need plane and easy texts for beginning I advice to start with fairy tales and short stories for children.

Thanks. That's pretty much what I have been doing. I realise that there are a few products out there that don't tend to be as good as they say they are. So I have found a product that works for me, but I don't consider that to be all there is to it.

It has very much become a hobby as you say. I'm not studying it because I have to, I'm doing it for pure enjoyment and to keep the brain working. The need for Russian here in Australia is not great and I often get asked why would I bother to try to learn it. I just like it. I watch the Russian news on television, watch what movies I can get my hands on and read the subtitles while trying to follow by ear, and get podcasts to listen to. And it's a great excitement to me when I can make words out, even better when I can understand what the subject matter is. I've even got my boys - 5 and 8 - into it, often speaking small phrases to them or using Russian numbers and times in answer to their questions. To tell you the truth I love it and could think of nothing better than to immerse myself in the culture and language for a while.

I've read here that some people suggest listening to songs or nursery rhymes as you say, with the text in front of you to follow. I'll definitely be trying that.

So what do you think? Is it better to focus on the spoken word first, then reading and grammar will follow, or is it the general feeling that being able to read it an essential first step to understanding?

Thanks

Matt

When you read an interesting book you can't stop without finding out what the plot will come to. Using rosettalike soft you're just getting tired and want it no more IMHO.

Originally Posted by studyr

When you read an interesting book you can't stop without finding out what the plot will come to. Using rosettalike soft you're just getting tired and want it no more IMHO.

Certainly. I couldn't agree more.

What I am seeing at the moment with what I'm doing is not just repetitive memorising of vocabulary and phrases, but I actually seeing my conversational ability increase to the point where I can get through the basics. It is this growth of usable ability that I find exciting and can't get enough of.

The first 'product' I used was simply words in english followed by their russian equivalent. I could easily say the russian forms of grass, moon, dish, sugar, etc, but as for putting them in a sentence I had no idea. It didn;t even give any form of greeting before I gave up on it - the product, not the learnin. So basically all it gave me was the ability to point at random things and name them I'm finding Pimsleur much more suitable in this regard.

To listen Pimsleur is annoying and boring too. I'll tell you about me and Rosetta Stone. My daughter is learning French at school. To help her I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from the bay. Using it I found speaking test option and decided to try it. When you repeat after the speaker the program shows conformity. I tried and got 30-40%, my daughter couldn't get more then 15-20% so she's gone away offendedly. Having enough of both French and Rosetta Stone I decided to make an experiment and switched to Russian. What was my amazement when I got absolutely nothing. I did my best, even changed my voice but all in vain How people understand me if I can't speak Pussian

Originally Posted by Pug505GR

So what do you think? Is it better to focus on the spoken word first, then reading and grammar will follow, or is it the general feeling that being able to read it an essential first step to understanding?

Thanks

Matt

Repeat after me: Listening, Speaking, Reading, Writing
These are the four language skills. You need all of them. Working on one will help with the others, but you need to practice all of them. Writing is generally the last skill to develop well. Listening is actually the most difficult skill to work on. Get yourself a variety of things to do with the language and work on all of them from time to time. If you are working on it and learning things, then you are doing it right.

Originally Posted by studyr

To listen Pimsleur is annoying and boring too. I'll tell you about me and Rosetta Stone. My daughter is learning French at school. To help her I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from the bay. Using it I found speaking test option and decided to try it. When you repeat after the speaker the program shows conformity. I tried and got 30-40%, my daughter couldn't get more then 15-20% so she's gone away offendedly. Having enough of both French and Rosetta Stone I decided to make an experiment and switched to Russian. What was my amazement when I got absolutely nothing. I did my best, even changed my voice but all in vain How people understand me if I can't speak Pussian

Having just 'acquired' a copy of Rosetta Stone I gave it a go, just to see what all the fuss was about. I must say that I didn't find it all that useful - especially when you consider the price I see what you mean about getting the voice recognition right. Like you, I couldn't pronounce anything that it deemed acceptable and correct. So I just turned the precision down one number and it seemed to accept things better.

As a learning aid I'm not so sure of it. I think it actually encourages people to rush through it, only trying to get the correct answer. Having spent a few hours on it yesterday and being mid way through level one, my recall of the majority of things done is minimal. A lot of the answers I got correct without actually knowing what was being said and why. I think its use as a supplment to other means would be good. If you get tired of listening to Pimsleur etc, or reading, then it could be a casual way to build on your knowledge, but it's definitely not the complete package.

Although the one thing I did like was the ability to talk back to it. It's the first time I've been able to actually assess my pronounciation, even if the results aren't perfect.

Originally Posted by paulb

Repeat after me: Listening, Speaking, Reading, Writing
These are the four language skills. You need all of them. Working on one will help with the others, but you need to practice all of them. Writing is generally the last skill to develop well. Listening is actually the most difficult skill to work on. Get yourself a variety of things to do with the language and work on all of them from time to time. If you are working on it and learning things, then you are doing it right.

Thanks Paul,

Here are the things that I'm doing.
- Listening to Pimsleur
- Using Rosetta Stone to further broaden vocabulary, although not so grammar, as well as my reading
- Watching Russian news and listening to other Russian langauge radio shows
- Reading Russian text, although I may not understand most of the words, it is putting the sounds of the words together phonetically which is the aim here., If I understand what is written, then that's a bonus at this early stage.
- And most of all making sure that I'm enjoying it. If I get to the point where things just aren't sinking in, then I stop as it only leads to frustration.

Sorry to get this thread off topic. I might start a new one discussing all this and my approach.

Thanks

Matt

Originally Posted by Pug505GR

especially when you consider the price

Sorry! I have missed the word "pirate" in

I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from the bay.