Too much censorship on the forums?

[Lampada]

Hanna, thanks for your positive view of the forum and its moderation! It's my pleasure to help to have as much democracy around here as humanly possible. But what I really go by is trying to follow all what I remember of Alex's opinions, thoughts and approach to problems. So, it's Alex's vision I wish I could preserve as long as I'm here.

[rockzmom]

"If you hit a Talib, then there would be no difference between you and the Talib," she said. "You must not treat others with cruelty... You must fight others through peace and through dialogue and through education." Malala Youfaszai

This is not the first time and I am certain it will not be the last that this topic comes up. I responded with a long reply to this question almost four years ago to the day MasterRussian.NET: before and after

As I had a different objective when I joined than most others, to understand the culture and history and some words or phrases and not to actually learn Russian, I cannot fully understand what has started this current round. I do ask everyone to consider why they are on MR? Is it to learn or improve a language? Is it to understand a different culture? Is it to meet people who are different from you and maybe form a sort of online penpal or even an find an amazing friend? Or is it to troll or throw insults at someone because you are anonymous behind some computer?

There have been wonderful lively and educational threads on this forum. Ones in which moderation is not needed because the people who particpated respected one another. You can have your own thoughts, opinions, beliefs and you can argue them through peaceful and respectful dialog and help educate others about your views and the problem of moderation and censorship will be resolved ... as it won't be needed.

[Hanna]

Nobody's forced to be active on this site if they have an issue with alleged "censorship" or anything else. There are millions of other sites out there.

I don't have an issue with censorship, but I have one with the trolling that is going on at the moment.
People are coming here for help with their Russian studies, mainly, and also to discuss the culture, politics, history etc of Russia and the USSR.

However recently there is a small group of people who dedicate an enormous amount of time black-painting Russia to the extent that they are likely to put novices off. They spit out the mainstream English speaking official version on everything related to Russia and other ex Soviet countries to the extent that I am beginning to wonder if they are actually paid for it. While at the same time being extremely secretive about themselves and where they get their information or perspective from. Genuine and well-intentioned participants are open with who they are, and what their reasons for participating are.

All this seems to bring out my worse and most radical, ranting sides. Not really good or healthy.

I realise that there are lots of serious problems and serious issues in Russia's present and past, but if you were to believe some people here; it's such a totally useless and horrible country that anyone bothering to learning the language would be seriously wasting their time! It's sad, when that's the perspective that casual visitors would get.
Who wants to know the language of a vile country with a terrible past, horrible present, led by an evil and corrupt dictator and full of poor and oppressed losers? (this is not my take on Russia, but check the posting history of the most prolific posters, and you'll begin to see a blackpainting campaign on a pretty amazing scale).

Since I am not actively studying Russian at the moment, and since I find myself just getting annoyed and being increasingly unfriendly in my posts, wasting time responding to provocative posts etc, I'm going to take my own advise and back off, instead of complaining.
The site is not uplifting and inspiring for me the way it used to be, so I have decided to take a break.

There are some people I really enjoy interacting with here and very much like - Russians, Americans, Ukrainians and many others.
I would have wanted to interact more with them, or at least visit the site regularly, but I find that I am mostly just trolled and not really learning anything I don't already know, or could find out elsewhere.

[Lampada]

This is sad and it's all true. Sorry Hannachka, I do feel guilty...

[it-ogo]

However recently there is a small group of people who dedicate an enormous amount of time black-painting Russia to the extent that they are likely to put novices off.

We have even the opposite camp active enough.

That is the universal problem not only online. For some reason people always tend to be obsessed with some ideology and promote it by all means. And there is no exact way to separate regular behavor from the ideologized one of the same person.

If you ever provide the way to do it you will get a number of Nobels for sure. Peace, Medicine, maybe Economics and Literature.

[Deborski]

I see a lot of anti-American rants as well as anti-Russian rants here, and to be honest, all of it puts me off. Both countries have problems! But too often, we focus on the negative to the exclusion of the good things. I'm guilty of this as well, since there are many things in America which I am disgusted with at the moment. But when I lived in Russia, it was not always rainbows and ice cream either. I can understand complaining about the issues, but when it becomes personal and we start hating on people because of their nationality, that is when it goes to far in my humble opinion. I'm American. I can't help the fact that I was born here and I can't personally put a stop to the bad things my country does either, but there are times when I feel like I am being personally blamed or held responsible for things my country does despite the fact that I have protested these things.

The truth is that there is no country on this planet which is innocent of wrong doing if you go back far enough. So comparing countries and trying to insist that one is superior to others is a fallacy. They all have problems, and we can only help each other if we see the GOOD and try to learn from it.

I also came here originally to study Russian, mostly because I had reconnected with my friends from long ago. I still study Russian every day but I am not spending as much time developing my language skills as I was before, because it does not look like I will have an opportunity to travel to Russia anytime in the near future and see my friends again. I do not want to lose the language skill I have gained, so I remain connected here. But personal attacks and aggressive nationalism bring me down and discourage me from participating as well. I don't want to have to apologize for being American (or female, or liberal) with every post I make.

[Hanna]

When I read this article, MR immediately came to mind.

Secret units within the 'Five Eyes" global spying network engage in covert online operations that aim to invade, deceive, and control online communities and individuals through the spread of false information and use of ingenious social-science tactics.

Such teams of highly trained professionals have several main objectives, such as “to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet” and “to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable,” The Intercept’s Glenn Greenwald reported based on intelligence documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.

There have been several regular users who won't reveal where they come from, or anything else about themselves. They are either suspiciously GOOD at Russian for being Westerners who are just beginners, or they don't appear to study Russian at all. They repeat the same info ad infinitum and sometimes seem to be on a script. Incredibly infuriating, to the point that I stopped visiting the site for the time being.

No need to jump to any conclusions or be suspicious towards regular people, but this is definitely a place I would consider using as a pilot site, if I was trying to start a project l like the one mentioned in the article. Honestly, it's a perfect place for trying your wings at this type of stuff. Worth bearing in mind anyway. If I was Admin I think my curiousity would get the better of me and I would take a look at the IP addresses in question and see where they resolve to.

[Suobig]

They are either suspiciously GOOD at Russian for being Westerners who are just beginners, or they don't appear to study Russian at all.

So, they are good at Russian and don't appear to study Russian at all? Who could they be? May be, I don't know... Russians?

They repeat the same info ad infinitum and sometimes seem to be on a script.

Never seen such things here.

It's a bit paranoid, isn't it?

[Hanna]

So, they are good at Russian and don't appear to study Russian at all? Who could they be? May be, I don't know... Russians?



Never seen such things here.

It's a bit paranoid, isn't it?

Yes, well read the article. I'm not saying it's happening here, or it isn't. I don't work for the NSA or GCHQ.
Read the article, take a look at some of the people who have been extremely active in the political forum and make up your own mind. Their behaviour is very odd, but makes perfect sense if you look at it from this perspective.
You don't have to believe it, I am not convinced.

Have you ever been in a gaming parlour online? There are often employees of the company pretending to be real players for whatever business purposes. Read Amazon reviews with page after page of "genuine" people praising to the skies a book that you happen to own and you know is useless?
The GCHQ program is the same thing, but on a global level, in relationship to politics. It's not paranoia to assume that it's being done, particularly not after Snowden confirmed it. The only question is whether it happens here or not.

As for the people I had in mind, no I don't think they are Russian, as they make typical native English speaker typos or grammatical errors, alt. continental European oozing out of every line they write. Or they write stuff that is so incorrect or prejudiced that it's unrealistic in the extreme that a Russian person should come to a site like this and start making such statements.

Of course, you can never know for certain who's who online, and people can deliberately try to give out signals of being another nationality than they actually are. Just throwing it out there, because I actually did get a feeling I was dealing with people who were paid to just spit out nonsense of a certain political flavour. Frankly I'd prefer it if this feeling was wrong though - it would be an incredibly sinister situation.

[edvalais]

Frankly I'd prefer it if this feeling was wrong though - it would be an incredibly sinister situation.

Well it wouldn't really, would it? The internet is so vast that I doubt whether a few people posing as "normal" internet users will make much difference. .

I've also just read how you dislike the "black-painting" of Russia on this site. In my opinion, you should distinguish between criticism of certain aspects of Russia - and specifically a small, corrupt group of people in power - and the country itself. Personally I deplore what's happening to Russia at the moment precisely because I respect her people and culture and history.

I would much rather be a member of a forum where there are lively disagreements, than read endlessly polite platitudes: спор между форумчанами до добра доведет!

There should be no censorship here at all. Frankly, I find it "detskii sad".

[Lampada]

What?! 21 - "за"! Последний раз я смотрела - "за" был только один голос (мой). Спасибо, народы!

[Crocodile]

Never seen such things here. It's a bit paranoid, isn't it?

Aha! Here's the first one! The guys apparently is using the social science tactics - denyting with determination and putting labels!

So, they are good at Russian and don't appear to study Russian at all? Who could they be? May be, I don't know... Russians?

Aha! He's also using logic! Meaning he's trained too!

[Hanna]

Well it wouldn't really, would it? The internet is so vast that I doubt whether a few people posing as "normal" internet users will make much difference. .

I've also just read how you dislike the "black-painting" of Russia on this site. In my opinion, you should distinguish between criticism of certain aspects of Russia - and specifically a small, corrupt group of people in power - and the country itself. Personally I deplore what's happening to Russia at the moment precisely because I respect her people and culture and history.

I would much rather be a member of a forum where there are lively disagreements, than read endlessly polite platitudes: спор между форумчанами до добра доведет!

There should be no censorship here at all. Frankly, I find it "detskii sad".

I particularly dislike when people come to this site and think they are going to tell Russians what's wrong with their country, in an arrogant or patronising way. Or go on about supposed wrongs in Russia's past, or the general evilness of Putin. First of all, they already know it, and secondly it's pretty rude. After all, this is a forum about Russia. and the language. What would you say if somebody asked your help with English studies and then proceeded to insult Britain's past, present, queen and government.

For the most part, such people are either ignorant, or a besserwisser basing their info on skimming English speaking media and watching a few documentaries.

I think people should come with the aim of learning, and an open mind. Unless you lived in Russia for many years, and speak Russian fluently, the average Russian person is going to be one up on you on any political, historical or cultural matter.

[hddscan]

Lampada, мне кажется вы как-то очень болезненно воспринимаете все что относится к политике и к США в частности.
При этом, на мой взгляд, вы слегка biased в своих взглядах, что разражает определенную группу лиц на этом форуме, ну и сказывается на ваших административных решениях. За время вашего "правления" форум покинула(или сократила время пребывания) приличная группа лиц, к примеру: Medved, Itogo, RedFox, Hanna, причем многие неоднократно выражали вам свое недовольство по поводу политических тем.
Я не знаю что за "специфическая правда" была в посте Basil77, но банить за мнение, если оно не противоречит правилам форума, это все же перебор, на мой взгляд.
Обычно, при бане, ссылаются на конкретное правило форума, которое было нарушено, иначе с одной стороны очень тяжело понять за что забанили, а с другой стороны создает известную ситуацию: "закон что дышло - куда повернул, туда и вышло"

[Lampada]

Lampada, мне кажется вы как-то очень болезненно воспринимаете все что относится к политике и к США в частности.
При этом, на мой взгляд, вы слегка biased в своих взглядах, что разражает определенную группу лиц на этом форуме, ну и сказывается на ваших административных решениях. За время вашего "правления" форум покинула(или сократила время пребывания) приличная группа лиц, к примеру: Medved, Itogo, RedFox, Hanna, причем многие неоднократно выражали вам свое недовольство по поводу политических тем.
Я не знаю что за "специфическая правда" была в посте Basil77, но банить за мнение, если оно не противоречит правилам форума, это все же перебор, на мой взгляд.
Обычно, при бане, ссылаются на конкретное правило форума, которое было нарушено, иначе с одной стороны очень тяжело понять за что забанили, а с другой стороны создает известную ситуацию: "закон что дышло - куда повернул, туда и вышло"

Известный факт, что со времени начала войны в Украине, в разделе Политика появились темы и посты, полные ненависти и оскорбительных переходов на личности. Так что с этим, без исключения, связаны все баны. Так же, такие провокационные выражения, как: "Я бы выстрели ему в лоб", или "США - рассадник терроризма, Империя Зла" и другие подобные, неуместны на "Masterrussian". Это чистый троллинг.

[hddscan]

я думаю что нужен еще один модератор в политику, который разбирался бы не только с "про-российскими" высказываниями (как сейчас), но и с "анти-российскими", чтобы не было никому обидно. Уж извините за прямоту

В доказательство своих слов приведу несколько цитат отдельных форумчан, оставшихся без модерирования
"you neo-Soviet Russians"
"If you want to be a traitor and support your status quo Putin"
"These types of Russians support stuff like this:
...
Putinoids really are mentally disturbed."
"You don't know what the definition of lying is. But, your Kremlin tricks won't work."
"I know that Russia has a drug problem but I really advise you against using Krok"
"Whatever you say, Mr. Putinoid. Don't forget to pick up your cheque."
"You're either extremely stupid or just pretending."
"That's a typical Putinoid response, to just laugh it off. Yet, all your comments are pro-Putin or of the Putin apologist tone. But, at least, you follow the line."
"He's a naiive kid who doesn't know anything about Russia."

Ну и вам наверное следует еще раз перечитать эту тему - Info about who is banned, what for, for how long, etc.

[Lampada]

Дорогой скан, мне помнится, что ты старательно провоцировал написание этих цитат. Поэтому я не вмешивалась.
Все проблемы в форуме начались с войной и закончатся с войной. Никакое модерирование здесь не поможет.
Я предлагаю не ходить в Политику до настоящего перемирия.
Пусть бы студенты спокойно учились, не отвлекаясь на эти потоки грязи.

[hddscan]

Дорогой скан, мне помнится, что ты старательно провоцировал написание этих цитат. Поэтому я не вмешивалась.

Как же так? Ведь далеко не все эти цитаты предназначались мне, как же я их провоцировал?
Или все остальные тоже провоцировали?
Может все-таки в "консерватории" что-то не так?
и опять же, правила они ведь для всех равны, а не только для русских

Все проблемы в форуме начались с войной и закончатся с войной. Никакое модерирование здесь не поможет.

не согласен, модерирование должно работать всегда

Я предлагаю не ходить в Политику до настоящего перемирия.

а я предлагаю справедливое модерирование, независимо от военных действий, этот вопрос уже давно назрел

Пусть бы студенты спокойно учились, не отвлекаясь на эти потоки грязи.

был вариант закрыть политику, но мне помнится он не нашел поддержки среди форумчан

[Lampada]

...Может все-таки в "консерватории" что-то не так?

Очередное провоцирование? Хи-хи...

а я предлагаю справедливое модерирование, независимо от военных действий, этот вопрос уже давно назрел

Нет у "Masterrussian" никакой необходимости в освещении политики во время военных действий, когда каждый день гибнут люди. О чём бы ни шла речь, любой будет и прав, и неправ. Есть туча мест в Инете, где любят политику.
Мы здесь абсолютно для другого собрались. Могу напомнить: языками заниматься, особенно русским.

был вариант закрыть политику, но мне помнится он не нашел поддержки среди форумчан

Да, была маленькая надежда, что, несмотря ни на что, мы сумеем оставаться вежливыми и уважительными. Как ты умело продемонстрировал, не получается у нас.

[hddscan]

тогда надо закрывать политику, если не получается ее модерировать