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Thread: Proper Pronuncition or Joke?

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    Почётный участник bobert's Avatar
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    Proper Pronuncition or Joke?

    I came across this video and the pronunciation of the Russian words seems to be wrong. Is this guy serious or is he joking?

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    He's definitely not a native speaker.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  3. #3
    Paul G.
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    His pronunciation is awful, LOL. Not to mention his voice, manners and a chaotic way to give the information.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    He's definitely not a native speaker.
    He's definitely a native speaker of US or Canadian English. (And if he's completed more than one semester of college-level Russian, I'd be amazed -- my guess is that he got everything from reading a "Russian for Dummies" book.)

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    He looks pretty much like Jim Carrey =))

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    Новичок
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    In particular, there's no way a native would wrongly stress the first syllable on второй and седьмой.

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    @ Bobert. That's the most American accent I've ever heard - probably New Jersey, lol. He's trying to fake it but it's Not coming off Russian. He uses "H" and "W" like a pro and those letters are Not in the Cyrillic alphabet.
    And his "R" is all wrong too. If he was Russian, they would be slightly trilled "R"s at the back of his throat. Americans pronounce letters mostly at the front of their mouths, not Russians.

    My advice is to take time to listen to real Russians or watch Russian youtubes. The more you study and listen, the easier it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    And his "R" is all wrong too. If he was Russian, they would be slightly trilled "R"s at the back of his throat. Americans pronounce letters mostly at the front of their mouths, not Russians.
    That's considered a speech impediment in Russian. The overwhelming majority of Russians pronounce an alveolar flap or trill. And your conclusion doesn't seem to be обоснованным.

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    That's considered a speech impediment in Russian. The overwhelming majority of Russians pronounce an alveolar flap or trill. And your conclusion doesn't seem to be обоснованным.
    Well, it wasn't really a conclusion - it was more like a guess. But all the Russians I've talked to, in real-life, seem to pronounce letters more towards the back of their mouths - but I could be wrong.
    Another guess I have is that all Russians don't have the same kind of accent. People in different parts of the USA talk differently and I get the feel that it's a lot the same in Russia, especially since Russia is so much bigger.
    But I still say he sounds like somebody from New Jersey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    Another guess I have is that all Russians don't have the same kind of accent. People in different parts of the USA talk differently and I get the feel that it's a lot the same in Russia, especially since Russia is so much bigger.
    Although Russia is much bigger by its area, it has much fewer pronunciation differences between its regions than the U.S. have.
    Yes, you are right, some differences exist.

    The most noticeable are northern and southern accents, while the central accent is considered to be standard.

    The northern accent is spread to the north of Vologda and Kostroma in the north of the European Russia (but not in its Asian part). The most prominent feature of the northern accent is lack of unstressed "о" reduction. In the central and southern parts, for example, "молоко" is pronounced as "малакО" (with reducing all the unstressed о's to a schwa or to a weakened "а"), IPA: [məlɐˊko]. In the European North it would sound clearly as "молокО" with all distinct о's.

    The southern accent is typical somewhere to the sound of the Don River, and in some areas close to Ukraine. It has the same vowel reduction as the standard Central Russian. But its most prominent feature is the fricative "г", which is pronounced as ] in IPA (technically, it is a voiced counterpart of the Russian "х").

    So, to illustarte the differences, we can consider examples of "гора", "нога" and "дорога":
    Central (starndard pronunciation): [gɐˊra], [nɐˊga], [dɐˊrogɐ];
    Northern pronunciation: [goˊra], [noˊga], [doˊrogɐ];
    Southern pronunciation: [ɣɐˊra], [nɐˊɣa], [dɐˊroɣɐ];

    There are also some other subtle nuances (involving St Petersburg vs Moscow pronunciation standards), but they are very slight and not even always noticed by native speakers. E.g., people in St Petersburg pronounce unstressed "е" as more or less clear [e] sound, while in other parts of Russia (including Moscow) it sounds more like [i] when unstressed. I know it theoretically, but I never paid attention when I visited St Pete. In general, Russian pronunciation is much more uniform as compared to English. You cannot tell somebody's birthplace from his accent (except the cases with North and South). Even if he speaks with the southern accent, you may not notice it unless he pronounces at least one word with "г"
    iCake likes this.

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Nice explanation for the Russian accents variety. But I have one question to ask now

    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
    its most prominent feature is the fricative "г", which is pronounced as [ɣ] in IPA (technically, it is a voiced counterpart of the Russian "х").
    I don't quite understand that, well I understand the thought, but I thought that the Russian "х" is voiced as well. So how can be the Ukrainian like "г" can be a voiced counterpart of "х". I mean they're both voiced.

    And I don't claim that what I said is true. I may be deluded anyway. I'm just interested in that now.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Nice explanation for the Russian accents variety. But I have one question to ask now



    I don't quite understand that, well I understand the thought, but I thought that the Russian "х" is voiced as well. So how can be the Ukrainian like "г" can be a voiced counterpart of "х". I mean they're both voiced.

    And I don't claim that what I said is true. I may be deluded anyway. I'm just interested in that now.
    How did you come to the conculsion the Russian "х" is voiced? You are a native speaker, aren't you It is a voiceless consonant. This is that sound: Voiceless velar fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    It can only become voiced when followed by a voiced consonant immediately (i.e. without a pause), any of "б, д, г, ж, з". Compare (sorry for the rude example, but it is only for the pronunciation sake): Он сдох (voiceless final "х"), but Он сдох бы (assimilative voicing takes place). Although Russians do not usually notice this voicing.

    Moreover, the southern Russian "г" and the Ukrainian "г" are not the same! It's a mistake when some people think they are the same.
    Souhern Russian "г" is exactly the voiced counterpart of "х": Voiced velar fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    The Ukrainian "г" is the voiced counterpart of English "h" in "hot": Voiced glottal fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    And the English "h" in "hot" itself: Voiceless glottal fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Well, I agree with you that Russian "х" is not always voiced, but when I pronounce it as a single sound I do feel that my vocal chords vibrate. Maybe that's why I was deluded
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Well, I agree with you that Russian "х" is not always voiced, but when I pronounce it as a single sound I do feel that my vocal chords vibrate. Maybe that's why I was deluded
    It's still strange. When I pronounce a single standalone "х", my vocal chords do not vibrate. You are either cheated by your own hearing, or you have quite a non-standard pronunication. I believe the first option is more likely

    You know, one of my acquaintances tried to convince me that "ц" was a voiced consonant! As an argument, she provided an expression "звонко цокать".

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Hmm, I was never "accused" of any non-standard pronunciation Well, yet I know that I do vibrate my vocal chords when I pronounce "х" as a single sound, and this has nothing to do with my hearing. All you need to do is to put your palm on your throat to check if a consonant or vowel is voiced or not.

    For example, when I pronounce "ц" I don't feel any vibrations with my hand on my throat, my throat is practically still when I do that.

    But when pronouncing "х" as a single sound I feel with my hand that the muscles of my throat vibrate. Although it's only true for a standalone "х".

    In your example: сдох - I definitely don't feel any vocal chords vibrations for my final "х"

    The "х" as a starting sound of a word:

    Хороший - no vocal chords vibrations for "х"

    In the middle:

    Плохой - no vocal chords vibrations for "х" either.

    However for your other example:

    сдох бы - I feel vocal chords vibrations for the "х" sound there, but not as much as for a standalone "х".

    Anyway, that is an interesting converstation we have. Learn something new everyday
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Hmm, I was never "accused" of any non-standard pronunciation
    I am not accusing you, I am trying to understand the reason why you think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    For example, when I pronounce "ц" I don't feel any vibrations with my hand on my throat, my throat is practically still when I do that.
    That's logical and expected!

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    But when pronouncing "х" as a single sound I feel with my hand that the muscles of my throat vibrate. Although it's only true for a standalone "х".
    That's very strange to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    In your example: сдох - I definitely don't feel any vocal chords vibrations for my final "х"
    As expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Хороший - no vocal chords vibrations for "х"
    As expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Плохой - no vocal chords vibrations for "х" either.
    As expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    сдох бы - I feel vocal chords vibrations for the "х" sound there
    As expected.

    OK, let's switch to Russian. I do not think this discussion is so much interesting for foreigners.

    Собственно, щупать ладонью шею - не самый надёжный способ определить звонкость согласного. Это один из методов обучения фонетике. Но я например вообще никогда им не пользуюсь. Разве слухового ощущения эффекта звонкости не достаточно? Звонкость придаёт голос. Глухой звук голоса не имеет.

    Не против, если я на "ты" буду?

    Вот попробуй сравнить известные пары глухих и звонких, чисто на слух: П-Б, Т-Д, К-Г, Ф-В, С-З, Ш-Ж. Также совершенно не трудно воспроизвести звонкую пару к Ц (получится слитное ДЗ) и звонкую пару к Ч (получится слитное ДЖЬ). Да и звоное Щ не составит труда (длинное мягкое ЖЖЬ будет). Мне вот никакого труда не составляет любой согласный произнести глухо или звонко. Могу и Л, М, Н, Р сделать глухими. А глухой Й - это получится звук, очень похожий на ХЬ.
    То есть я считаю, что слухового эффекта голоса достаточно. И умения применять аналогию. Почувствовав и выделив признак, ты можешь добавить его к любому звуку, или отнять от любого.
    Слово, произнесённое без голоса целиком - это не что иное, как шёпот.

    Теперь, возможные версии, почему тебе "Х" кажется звонким при изолированном произнесении:
    1) Ты действительно произносишь его как [ɣ], когда он изолирован. Очень маловероятно, что то правда...
    2) Ты произносишь его с утрированной фрикацией (то есть проще говоря с бОльшим напряжением, чем обычно). А так как сам по себе звук заднеязычный (произносится задней частью языка, ближе к горлу) -то в купе с утрированной фрикацией получается вибрация, которая передаётся на внешнюю поверхность шеи. Но это вовсе не из-за голосовых связок (они молчат, и тут не при чём). Если ты доверяешь именно тактильным ощущениям (ладони), то получается, что тебя можно легко обмануть.
    3) Ты произносишь звук очень кратко. А в самом конце включаешь голос. Так поступают многие русские, когда пытаются произнести изолированный глухой согласный (не только Х, но и любой другой - П, Т и т.д.). Думая, что они произносят изолированный согласный, фактически они произносят нечто вроде ПЫ, ТЫ и т.д. со сверхкратким Ы. Но этого сверхкраткого призвука достаточно, чтобы ощутить ложную звонкость.

    Точнее сказать не могу, так как не слышал твоего голоса.

    Ещё в добавок: если ты знаешь, как звучит южнорусский Г, произнеси изолированно его. А потом почередуй с Х. Вот так: Х - Г - Х - Г - Х - Г (только обязательно с южнорусским Г!)
    А потом произнеси С - З - С - З - С - З. Ты почувствуешь, что соотношение между звуками в точности такое же.

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Хмм, я просто запишу "Х" тогда. Ты сможешь тогда сказать, что почём

    Нажми сюда
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    ОК, спасибо! Послушаю вечером, когда дома буду

  19. #19
    kib
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    У тебя обычное "Х", Игорь, - глухое. Чтобы наверняка убедиться в этом, произнеси не [хы], а [х-х-х] - потяни звук без всякого "ы".
    Я изучаю английский язык и поэтому делаю много ошибок. Но я не прошу Вас исправлять их, Вы можете просто ткнуть меня носом в них, или, точнее, пихнуть их мне в глаза. I'm studying English, and that's why I make a lot of mistakes. But I do not ask you to correct them, you may just stick my nose into them or more exactly stick them into my eyes.
    Всё, что не делается, не всегда делается к лучшему
    Но так же не всегда всё, что не делается, не делается не к худшему. : D

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    kib
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    Я сейчас живу в Пятигорске - тот самый юг России, - поэтому я знаю не понаслышке, или вернее как раз понаслышке, что такое звонкое х. Тут многие, особенно старшее поколение, произносят его. А еще вместо "к" - "х".
    Я изучаю английский язык и поэтому делаю много ошибок. Но я не прошу Вас исправлять их, Вы можете просто ткнуть меня носом в них, или, точнее, пихнуть их мне в глаза. I'm studying English, and that's why I make a lot of mistakes. But I do not ask you to correct them, you may just stick my nose into them or more exactly stick them into my eyes.
    Всё, что не делается, не всегда делается к лучшему
    Но так же не всегда всё, что не делается, не делается не к худшему. : D

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