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I have a Russian AV New Testament that I have been working in and have been wondering how to pronounce words that have two "и" 's in a row. A couple examples:
очищении (on the end)
Иисус (at the beginning)
Also, can anyone tell me what this symbol is - I don't think it is a мягкий знак. It is different (there is a мягкий знак in verse 7).
You can see it in verse 5 on the second line at the left:
Attachment 799
It's very often when you need to pronounce 2 or three similar sounds in a row. For example змееед or длинношеее.
You just need to say it 3 times separately.
Иисус is pronounced Исус. I don't know exactly what is pronounced at the end of очищении.
Иисус is pronounced И-Исус not Исус. People were killed for that BTWQuote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Иисус или Исус: буква раскола - Православный журнал ''Фома''
You just need to take a very short pause between two of the same vowels when you speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Double "и" is pronounced just as two "и" vowels: ee-ee.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Whenever you see a combination of vowel letters in Russian, just pronounce each sound as it is. Russian is not like English. In English a combination of vowels is not the same as two separate vowels, e.g. "au" is not just "ay"+"you" but a completely new vowel, right? But Russian is much simpler in this regard. Just read each vowel as its own sound.
Unfortunately, I cannot see your attachment :( just an error notification...
However, I can guess what you mean. Is it like a high soft sign (Ь) with a strikethrough on the top of it? If yes, it is an old letter (it's name is ЯТЬ) which was in use until 1918. You can still find it in some old texts. Its pronunciation is exactly the same as the pronunciation of Е. So, the schoolchildren had to memorize in those times, where to write the plain Е, and where to write ЯТЬ. The spelling was much more complicated for them.
Вы чего? Произносится он "Исус", а вот пишется "Иисус", потому и спор возник, что произношение не зависело от написания.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomer
То же самое "иероглифы" - "ироглифы". Паузы внутри слов - вообще нонсенс!
Many people pronounce it "Исус" indeed. But there are educated people who pronounce it "Иисус" with two "и" sounds. I would say both pronunciations can exist, "Иисус" being the preferred one, and "Исус" being widely used as a common simplification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Here I would not agree. I would never say [ироглиф], only [и-йи-РОГ-лиф].Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
As to the pauses inside a word - yes, it is a nonsense, I agree.
Похоже это специфика московского произношения (ты ведь из Москвы, Marcus?) Я лично произношу сдвоенное "и" в обоих случаях, но, скорее всего, уже лет так через 5 все будут говорить "Исус", "ироглифы", - потому что проще. Многим влом произносить даже сдвоенные согласные. Знаете, в КВНе была шутка: " - Ты - руский??? - Да русский, два "с"".Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Sorry, Lampada, is it the same as was posted in the original attachment? I did not realize it since the attachment does not work, it shows an error message.
Or is it just another illustration?
Никогда не произносил иероглифы как ироглифы и никогда такого не слышал, ну или не помню, что слышал.
Насчёт Иисуса, большинство произносит его как Исус и это правда. Чего только стоит пасхальное:
Исус воскрес(е), воистину воскрес(е).
Что касается меня, в большинстве случаев я произношу Иисус как Иисус. Но то, что касается той пасхальной фразы, там только Исус.
Как-то так
Христос воскресе, а не Иисус.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Кстати да, чего-то я не туда попёр :D
Да, это чтение и текст Библии. Евангелие от Иоанна. Глава 1. "В начале было слово...".Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Oh, thanks. I thought she attached something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Then my assumption about the ЯТЬ letter seems to be wrong.
Verse 5 reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
И свет во тьме светит,
И тьма не объяла его.
And here verse 7 goes:
Он пришёл для свидетельства,
чтобы свидетельствовать о Свете,
дабы все уверовали чрез него.
So, is it the same what you saw, Genuinefarmgirl?
The text is in modern orthography, it does not contain any obsolete letters (like yat' or others).
Verse 5 just contains 2 usual soft signs (red) and 1 hard sign (blue):
И свет во тьме светит,
И тьма не объяла его.
Marcus, stop being funny. X)Quote:
Marcus
Христос воскресе, а не Иисус.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Yes, that is what it is. I should've realized it... :)
Glad the attachment finally worked without my having to mess with it...I'm just not good at pictures.
So, will anyone refresh me on how to pronounce with the твердый знак?
The твердый и мягкий знаки are not pronounced on their own, they just show that the preceeding consonant is hard or soft.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Въехать [вй'эхат']
You do know, don't you, that apostrophe indicates softness. If there's no apostrophe, the consonant should be hard.
Твёрдый знак (Ъ) is the rarest letter in the modern Russian alphabet. But sometimes we do need it. As you probably know, it does not have its own sound, but it is rather a "separation sign".Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
It is only used after a consonant (mainly, after prefixes ending in a consonant) before Е, Ё, Ю, Я. Твёрдый знак makes the following vowel to be pronounced as if it were at the beginning of the word.
What I mean: the letters Е, Ё, Ю, Я have two meanings each.
1) The "й" consonant (English Y in "yes, yard, yoke, young", IPA symbol [j]) + a corresponding vowel: Е = [je], Ё = [jo], Ю = [ju], Я = [ja] (here [j] is the IPA sign for this "Y" sound, it has nothing to do with English "J").
This pronunication occurs:
- word-initially: ель, ёж, юг, яд;
- after any vowel: боец, поёт, уют, моя;
- after separation signs Ь or Ъ.
2) When used after a consonant, those letters (Е, Ё, Ю, Я) signal the consonant is "soft" (palatalized) /I hope you know what it means/ + they denote a single vowel without "й" (i.e. without the sound which is indicated as "Y" in English or as [j] in IPA).
Examples:
мел [m'el] (the apostroph ' indicates palatalization here), рёв [r'of], ключ [kl'uch], пять [p'at'].
So, there is a pronunciation difference, when a word has the hard sign (съел "has eaten") and when it does not (сел "sat down"). The two verbs are pronounced differently in Russian. The verb "съел" sounds as [sjel] (you would transcribe it SYEL in English), and the verb "сел" sounds [s'el] with the palatalized "с" but without [j].
The example from the verse:
объяла [abjala] (ub-YAH-luh), while "обяла" (which does not exist) would be pronounced as [ab'ala] (uh-B'AH-luh) with the soft "б".
What is funny here? Or why am I funny?Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Marcus, I am quite aware of the greeting Russian believers use on Easter (Christ is risen, and the response of: He is risen indeed.) Hence, I took your statement as a play on words; if it were to be taken otherwise, it would simply not make sense. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but I do hope you did not say that in scorn or mockery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
OK, on the same subject:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
I am aware of the doubled 'e' needing to be pronounced twice, but what about a doubled 'н'? I see this a lot; is this a consonant and therefore does not require to be pronounced twice? Is it only vowels that need to be pronounced twice (if twice in a row)?Quote:
Originally Posted by pushvv
Double consonants are pronounced as a single consonant if they're a part of the same word. However, there are so called long consonants that happen if a one sound preposition is connected to a word starting with the same sound (or the preposition sound cognate, e.g с/з в/ф are cognates) as the preposition itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
For example
с собой vs собой - these two are not pronounced the same
собой is pronounced with an ordinary с sound but
c собой is pronounced with a slightly prolonged, sustained "с"
в воде vs воде - the same thing
Cognates merging into one long voiced or unvoiced sound examples
в форме vs форме - в форме is pronounced with long unvoiced "ф" sound /ф:орме/ (The ":" sign represents a long sound in IPA if you don't know)
с замка vs замка - c замка is pronounced with long voiced "з" sound /з:амка/
Note that the long consonant is not pronounced as long as compared to just an ordinary consonant, just sligtly, almost vaguely longer, but still this is enough for native speakers to always get the difference.
I hope this helps
Double н as wel as other consonants are usually pronounced as long consonants after a stressed vowel. ванна, касса, данный and so on. They are also pronounced on the border of a prefix and a root. ввод, поддержать, but not рассказ. You do not need to pronounce double н in words like сделанный, убранный and so on.
As I understand, it was not a play on words. Marcus corrected iCake.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
iCake gave an example "Иисус воскресе" to illustrate the pronunciation of "Иисус". But we do not say like that. It is a fixed Easter greeting, a set phrase: "Христос воскресе" (or just "Христос воскрес" - in modern Russian, the ending "-е" is archaic here). Then iCake admitted it was his mistake.
A good question! Generally speaking, it depends.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
And yes, I agree with everyone else on that.
Double consonants are never pronounced as two separate sounds in a row. There are 2 possibilities:
1) In most of cases, doubling a consonant letter makes no effect on its pronunciation. Double consonants often occur in loan words: теннис (sounds like [тЭнис]), пассажир "passenger" (sounds like [пасажЫр]), ассоциация (sounds like [асацыАцыя]), антенна (sounds like [антЭна]), баррикада (sounds like [барикАда]) etc.
Double Н is also frequent in native Russian suffixes of adjectives and adverbs. In many case it is also pronounced just as a single Н: сделанный "made, done" [здЕланый], искренне "sincerely" [Искрини] etc.
2) In some cases, a double consonant makes somewhat a single prolonged sounds (slightly longer than an ordinary consonant), but the difference is noticeable for native speakers. It is hard to formulate a common rule for that.
But please notice: it is always a prolonged sound when a word begins with a double consonant.
More examples (in addition to what iCake provided):
ведение (conducting, directing) but введение (introduction) - they sound differently;
вод (genitive plural of "вода" - water, i.e. something like "of waters") but ввод (bringing in) - they sound differently;
сор (rubbish, litter) but ссор (genitive plural of "ссора" - quarrel, i.e. something like "of quarrels") - they sound differently.
So, to practice initial double consonants: введение, вводить, ввод, ссора, ссориться, ссуда.
Typically, this happens due to a prefix added to the root: в+ведение, в+водить, в+вод ("в" adds the meaning of "in, into"); с+суда (loan, grant) ("с" adds the meaning of "off") etc. The words ссора (a squarrel) and ссориться (to squarrel) are interesting examples which do not have a prefix, it is rather the root itself which starts with the double С.
In some other cases double consonants also can sound distinctly (as a prolonged sound). Marcus provided some examples for them. In addition: мАсса, длИнный, стрАнный, кОнный, окОнный. тОнна etc. (I capitalized the stressed vowels). So, I agree it might depend on the stress position as well: when immediately after a stressed vowel, the lengthening is noticeable. But there are also some cases when it cannot be explained this way: поддавкИ, оттопЫрить etc. (prefix + root + suffix: под+дав+ки, от-топыр-ить).
General advice for a beginner: when in doubt, it's better to pronounce a double consonant prolonged. Sometimes it may sound as a hypercorrect pronunciation, but it is much better then ignoring consonant lengthening where it must be lengthened.
I really appreciate you pointing this out, Bob. I went back and re-read; I think you are right. Somehow, I missed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
My apologies, Marcus!
Marcus, I'd like to clarify that when you say 'stressed' that is referring to where the accent goes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Thanks, iCake; yes, it was helpful!
Thanks for the advice on this, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Yes, you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Exactly. Actually, "accented vowel", "accented syllable", "stressed vowel" and "stressed syllable" all mean the same in regard to Russian.Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
As you probably know, every Russian word has a stress. If it is a monosyllabic word (like дом, сад, друг etc.) then its sole syllable is stressed, it is just obvious and there is no need to indicate the stress position (actually, they are pronounced as до́м, са́д, дру́г etc.), I hope you can see the diactritic.
If it is a polysyllabic word (with more than one syllable), than the following is true:
1) one of the syllables is stressed;
2) all other syllables are unstressed.
But there is generally no way to predict the stress position, so they usually put a stress mark in dictionaries, in books for children and in textbooks for foreign students:
ла́мпа (1st of 2), вода́ (2nd of 2);
о́блако (1st of 3), доро́га (2nd of 3), голова́ (3rd of 3);
пе́редано (1st of 4), изо́гнутый (2nd of 4), переса́дка (3rd of 4), сковорода́ (4th of 4) etc.
However, the stress mark is not a part of the Russian writing, we do not use it in texts, since native speakers put the correct stress automatically when reading: лампа, вода, облако, дорога, голова, передано, изогнутый, пересадка, сковорода.
There are some exceptions to that principle:
1) some auxiliary words do not have their own stress at all, being pronounced with the main word to which they are attached as a single whole. They are mainly prepositions (по, для, из etc.), conjunctions (и, а etc.) and some particles (не, ни, бы, же etc.).
2) some compound words can have two stresses or more, but they are quite rare: доро̀жнострои́тельный "road-buliding" (the first stress on "О" is an "additional stress" and the second stress on "И" is the main stress). I do not think you need to bother with those cases at this moment.
So, in this regard "stress" and "accent" mean the same. But Russians prefer calling it "stress" just because "accent" is ambiguous (it has many other meanings: foreign accent, local accent etc.). So, we usually call it "stress" in English (in Russian it is "ударе́ние").
We also sometimes say "stressed syllable", and sometimes say "stressed vowel". Basically, it means the same. The nubmer of syllables in a Russian word is equal to the number of vowels in it, because one vowel always forms one syllable.
Expanding a little on the same topic:
What's the proper pronunciation of three "и"'s in a row i.e.:
"...благодати и истины."
Native speakers won't be able to answer your question correctly. Listen to recordings.
Yes, I agree with Marcus. With this aproach you can ask about anything you run into. For example I can easily come up with 4 or even five "и's" in a row :crazy:Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Облигации и издержки
О богослужении и Иисусе.
And there will be no trouble for me to pronounce any of those two...
OK...so I'll just have to chase down one of my Russian-speaking friends and get them to pronounce it for me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Thanks; I guess I'm rather ignorant in this area yet but I'm learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
I don't doubt it! :)Quote:
And there will be no trouble for me to pronounce any of those two...
Мои две копейки для Genuinefarmgirl: SOME speakers of US English pronounce the word "skiing" with a rather strong "y" sound in the middle (skee-ying). You should AVOID this with the double ии in Russian words. At the same time, however, don't put a full glottal stop between them, the way that Cockneys say "mitten". So if you can imagine something BETWEEN:
"I'm agree-ying to go skee-ying!"
and
"Cor blimey, the ki'inz done lost their mi'inz, they 'as!"
then you're on the right track for pronouncing богослужении и Иисусе correctly!