Thread: How to pronounce double "и" & what is this symbol?

Marcus
Христос воскресе, а не Иисус.

Marcus, stop being funny. X)

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Oh, thanks. I thought she attached something different.

Then my assumption about the ЯТЬ letter seems to be wrong.



Verse 5 reads:
И свет во тьме светит,
И тьма не объяла его.

And here verse 7 goes:
Он пришёл для свидетельства,
чтобы свидетельствовать о Свете,
дабы все уверовали чрез него.

So, is it the same what you saw, Genuinefarmgirl?

The text is in modern orthography, it does not contain any obsolete letters (like yat' or others).

Verse 5 just contains 2 usual soft signs (red) and 1 hard sign (blue):
И свет во тьме светит,
И тьма не объяла его.

Yes, that is what it is. I should've realized it...
Glad the attachment finally worked without my having to mess with it...I'm just not good at pictures.


So, will anyone refresh me on how to pronounce with the твердый знак?

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

So, will anyone refresh me on how to pronounce with the твердый знак?

The твердый и мягкий знаки are not pronounced on their own, they just show that the preceeding consonant is hard or soft.
Въехать [вй'эхат']
You do know, don't you, that apostrophe indicates softness. If there's no apostrophe, the consonant should be hard.

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

Marcus, stop being funny. X)

What is funny here? Or why am I funny?

Originally Posted by Marcus

What is funny here? Or why am I funny?

Marcus, I am quite aware of the greeting Russian believers use on Easter (Christ is risen, and the response of: He is risen indeed.) Hence, I took your statement as a play on words; if it were to be taken otherwise, it would simply not make sense. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but I do hope you did not say that in scorn or mockery.

OK, on the same subject:

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Double "и" is pronounced just as two "и" vowels: ee-ee.
Whenever you see a combination of vowel letters in Russian, just pronounce each sound as it is. Russian is not like English. In English a combination of vowels is not the same as two separate vowels, e.g. "au" is not just "ay"+"you" but a completely new vowel, right? But Russian is much simpler in this regard. Just read each vowel as its own sound.

Originally Posted by pushvv

It's very often when you need to pronounce 2 or three similar sounds in a row. For example змееед or длинношеее.
You just need to say it 3 times separately.

I am aware of the doubled 'e' needing to be pronounced twice, but what about a doubled 'н'? I see this a lot; is this a consonant and therefore does not require to be pronounced twice? Is it only vowels that need to be pronounced twice (if twice in a row)?

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

I am aware of the doubled 'e' needing to be pronounced twice, but what about a doubled 'н'? I see this a lot; is this a consonant and therefore does not require to be pronounced twice? Is it only vowels that need to be pronounced twice (if twice in a row)?

Double consonants are pronounced as a single consonant if they're a part of the same word. However, there are so called long consonants that happen if a one sound preposition is connected to a word starting with the same sound (or the preposition sound cognate, e.g с/з в/ф are cognates) as the preposition itself.

For example
с собой vs собой - these two are not pronounced the same
собой is pronounced with an ordinary с sound but
c собой is pronounced with a slightly prolonged, sustained "с"

в воде vs воде - the same thing

Cognates merging into one long voiced or unvoiced sound examples

в форме vs форме - в форме is pronounced with long unvoiced "ф" sound /ф:орме/ (The ":" sign represents a long sound in IPA if you don't know)
с замка vs замка - c замка is pronounced with long voiced "з" sound /з:амка/

Note that the long consonant is not pronounced as long as compared to just an ordinary consonant, just sligtly, almost vaguely longer, but still this is enough for native speakers to always get the difference.

I hope this helps

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

Marcus, I am quite aware of the greeting Russian believers use on Easter (Christ is risen, and the response of: He is risen indeed.) Hence, I took your statement as a play on words; if it were to be taken otherwise, it would simply not make sense. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but I do hope you did not say that in scorn or mockery.

As I understand, it was not a play on words. Marcus corrected iCake.
iCake gave an example "Иисус воскресе" to illustrate the pronunciation of "Иисус". But we do not say like that. It is a fixed Easter greeting, a set phrase: "Христос воскресе" (or just "Христос воскрес" - in modern Russian, the ending "-е" is archaic here). Then iCake admitted it was his mistake.

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

I am aware of the doubled 'e' needing to be pronounced twice, but what about a doubled 'н'? I see this a lot; is this a consonant and therefore does not require to be pronounced twice? Is it only vowels that need to be pronounced twice (if twice in a row)?

A good question! Generally speaking, it depends.

And yes, I agree with everyone else on that.

Double consonants are never pronounced as two separate sounds in a row. There are 2 possibilities:

1) In most of cases, doubling a consonant letter makes no effect on its pronunciation. Double consonants often occur in loan words: теннис (sounds like [тЭнис]), пассажир "passenger" (sounds like [пасажЫр]), ассоциация (sounds like [асацыАцыя]), антенна (sounds like [антЭна]), баррикада (sounds like [барикАда]) etc.

Double Н is also frequent in native Russian suffixes of adjectives and adverbs. In many case it is also pronounced just as a single Н: сделанный "made, done" [здЕланый], искренне "sincerely" [Искрини] etc.

2) In some cases, a double consonant makes somewhat a single prolonged sounds (slightly longer than an ordinary consonant), but the difference is noticeable for native speakers. It is hard to formulate a common rule for that.
But please notice: it is always a prolonged sound when a word begins with a double consonant.

More examples (in addition to what iCake provided):
ведение (conducting, directing) but введение (introduction) - they sound differently;
вод (genitive plural of "вода" - water, i.e. something like "of waters") but ввод (bringing in) - they sound differently;
сор (rubbish, litter) but ссор (genitive plural of "ссора" - quarrel, i.e. something like "of quarrels") - they sound differently.

So, to practice initial double consonants: введение, вводить, ввод, ссора, ссориться, ссуда.
Typically, this happens due to a prefix added to the root: в+ведение, в+водить, в+вод ("в" adds the meaning of "in, into"); с+суда (loan, grant) ("с" adds the meaning of "off") etc. The words ссора (a squarrel) and ссориться (to squarrel) are interesting examples which do not have a prefix, it is rather the root itself which starts with the double С.

In some other cases double consonants also can sound distinctly (as a prolonged sound). Marcus provided some examples for them. In addition: мАсса, длИнный, стрАнный, кОнный, окОнный. тОнна etc. (I capitalized the stressed vowels). So, I agree it might depend on the stress position as well: when immediately after a stressed vowel, the lengthening is noticeable. But there are also some cases when it cannot be explained this way: поддавкИ, оттопЫрить etc. (prefix + root + suffix: под+дав+ки, от-топыр-ить).

General advice for a beginner: when in doubt, it's better to pronounce a double consonant prolonged. Sometimes it may sound as a hypercorrect pronunciation, but it is much better then ignoring consonant lengthening where it must be lengthened.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

As I understand, it was not a play on words. Marcus corrected iCake.
iCake gave an example "Иисус воскресе" to illustrate the pronunciation of "Иисус". But we do not say like that. It is a fixed Easter greeting, a set phrase: "Христос воскресе" (or just "Христос воскрес" - in modern Russian, the ending "-е" is archaic here). Then iCake admitted it was his mistake.

I really appreciate you pointing this out, Bob. I went back and re-read; I think you are right. Somehow, I missed that.
My apologies, Marcus!

Originally Posted by Marcus

Double н as well as other consonants are usually pronounced as long consonants after a stressed vowel.

Marcus, I'd like to clarify that when you say 'stressed' that is referring to where the accent goes?

Thanks, iCake; yes, it was helpful!

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

General advice for a beginner: when in doubt, it's better to pronounce a double consonant prolonged. Sometimes it may sound as a hypercorrect pronunciation, but it is much better then ignoring consonant lengthening where it must be lengthened.

Thanks for the advice on this, too.

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

Marcus, I'd like to clarify that when you say 'stressed' that is referring to where the accent goes?

Yes, you are right.

Originally Posted by genuinefarmgirl

Marcus, I'd like to clarify that when you say 'stressed' that is referring to where the accent goes?

Exactly. Actually, "accented vowel", "accented syllable", "stressed vowel" and "stressed syllable" all mean the same in regard to Russian.

As you probably know, every Russian word has a stress. If it is a monosyllabic word (like дом, сад, друг etc.) then its sole syllable is stressed, it is just obvious and there is no need to indicate the stress position (actually, they are pronounced as до́м, са́д, дру́г etc.), I hope you can see the diactritic.

If it is a polysyllabic word (with more than one syllable), than the following is true:
1) one of the syllables is stressed;
2) all other syllables are unstressed.
But there is generally no way to predict the stress position, so they usually put a stress mark in dictionaries, in books for children and in textbooks for foreign students:
ла́мпа (1^st of 2), вода́ (2^nd of 2);
о́блако (1^st of 3), доро́га (2^nd of 3), голова́ (3^rd of 3);
пе́редано (1^st of 4), изо́гнутый (2^nd of 4), переса́дка (3^rd of 4), сковорода́ (4^th of 4) etc.

However, the stress mark is not a part of the Russian writing, we do not use it in texts, since native speakers put the correct stress automatically when reading: лампа, вода, облако, дорога, голова, передано, изогнутый, пересадка, сковорода.

There are some exceptions to that principle:
1) some auxiliary words do not have their own stress at all, being pronounced with the main word to which they are attached as a single whole. They are mainly prepositions (по, для, из etc.), conjunctions (и, а etc.) and some particles (не, ни, бы, же etc.).
2) some compound words can have two stresses or more, but they are quite rare: доро̀жнострои́тельный "road-buliding" (the first stress on "О" is an "additional stress" and the second stress on "И" is the main stress). I do not think you need to bother with those cases at this moment.

So, in this regard "stress" and "accent" mean the same. But Russians prefer calling it "stress" just because "accent" is ambiguous (it has many other meanings: foreign accent, local accent etc.). So, we usually call it "stress" in English (in Russian it is "ударе́ние").

We also sometimes say "stressed syllable", and sometimes say "stressed vowel". Basically, it means the same. The nubmer of syllables in a Russian word is equal to the number of vowels in it, because one vowel always forms one syllable.

Expanding a little on the same topic:

What's the proper pronunciation of three "и"'s in a row i.e.:

"...благодати и истины."