Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion?

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery! Plus, I think Croc has some "Ukrainian connection". However I think Crocodile is more sympathetic towards Russia in this particular question than he normally is! Maybe Croc loves Crimea and nostalgia/patriotism finally got the better of him!

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

You want EU membership, right? Because the alternative is some kind of union with Russia & co - a country can't really go it alone, unless it's made of oil or banks like Norway and Switzerland, and even those two have allegiances.

(As far as I am concerned, while supporting the opposition and a coup d'etat, the EU has lead Ukraine on this merry piper dance, and owes it to them now, to get Ukraine into the EU).

The way it is right now, one half of the country seems to always fight the other, and they are pulling in different directions, meaning the country can never progress! Belgium is a bit the same; two countries stuck in one and always fighting and pointing fingers. It's turned out extremely expensive for them!

From the outside perspective it looks like siamese twins, stuck in the same body, trying to walk in different directions! For 22 years now, this has been going on in Ukraine, how much more can you take?

Don't you agree that it is a stalemate, and something needs to be sacrificed to be able to get the game moving again?

I guess the alternative is to force everyone to support the new regime and just get on with it...

But Kiev also needs to keep in mind that minimum requirement for EU membership includes absolutely no territorial disputes in progress, and must be able to demonstrate that it's democratic.

Originally Posted by Hanna

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery!

We've been through that, I think. Please, ask me some specific questions and if I can provide specific answers I will try my best.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger.

As a person who grew up in Crimea and still has a lot of friends and relatives there, including Crimean Tatars, I'm sorry to say that you failed SPECTACULARLY at your attempt at emulating the Crimean POV. And thank you for calling the majority of Crimeans "happy slaves" for having guts to oppose our mock government (peacfully, I might add). You are being very kind.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

As a person who grew up in Crimea and still has a lot of friends and relatives there, including Crimean Tatars, I'm sorry to say that you failed SPECTACULARLY at your attempt at emulating the Crimean POV. And thank you for calling the majority of Crimeans "happy slaves" for having guts to oppose our mock government (peacfully, I might add). You are being very kind.

I am always very kind - that is my natural feature, Mohammad. To provide correct formulations: of course it was MY POV on what is going on in Crimea and on what is going on in Ukraine as a consequence of Crimean annexation.

I can agree that some people had guts protesting and fighting tatars with plastic bottles full of water before Russian invasion. And I can agree that many (maybe most - now we have no chance to know it for sure) Crimeans have a POV different from my. As for slaves, we'll see - for example Abkhazians proved that they are not puppets of the Kremlin but actual people, when raised against the decision provided by the Kremlin in 2004-2005. Obviously some day Kremlin's decision will come in contradiction to local interests and then I'll have a chance to change my opinion about slaves and guts. Keep in touch with your friends to not miss the situation.

One doesn't need guts to oppose mock government but one needs guts to oppose Kremlin.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Thanks for this response. It took a while to take it in.
I am just not that shocked about Crimea. If it was AGAINST the will of the people there, I would condemn it.
But they seem really happy with very few exceptions.

After being told what a horrible and aggressive country Russia is for over 10 years now - if this is the worst that Russia does, then I am just not that impressed. The USA does MUCH worse things.

Of course, it's easy for me to say - it's not my country that is losing a region.

On the other hand - I live in the UK at the moment, and Scotland is voting about independence. If the independence wins (which it won't...) then they are welcome to leave. 100%, it's their call. If they wanted to join France they'd be welcome too, as far as I am concerned.

I think Russia acted in an opportunistic way. Not 100% sporting. Discussing the matter with Kiev first, and setting a later date for the referndum would have been more respectful of Ukraine. On the other hand, there was nobody to discuss with, at the time, and the Crimeans were the driving force as far as I understand.

And as for "naughty" behaviour by a country; we see so much worse than that in international politics, thinking primarily of the US All Russia did was without bloodshed annex an area they previously had, with people who want to be Russians. Granted, they took advantage of Ukraine's misfortune.

I think Ukrainians could have prevented it from happening by being a stable and non-corrupt country. Instead, it was in such a poor state that it could have an area snatched from right under its nose.

I think that unless Ukraine gets its house in order, this type of thing could continue. Europe / USA will run the economy cream all the profits out of the country. And if total chaos breaks out, Russia might decide to annex more of Ukraine.

Ukraine needs to sort itself out. The EU and USA are no more friends than Russia. They stirred up people and brought on the situation that lead to this, and now they are using the situation for propaganda purposes.
Meanwhile the Ukrainians are the losers and victims.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...I am just not that shocked about Crimea. If it was AGAINST the will of the people there, I would condemn it.
But they seem really happy with very few exceptions.

I don't care much about USA crimes for now. Anyway I believe USA in not a threat to the peace in Europe, but Russia is. Europe becomes much less safe place with this new situation.

Russia is weak. It is really weak, that is why it can't make really much evil and that is why its evil is not compensated by its good because it has neither resources nor will to make good left after making evil. As for USA, it is, for example, still world scientific and technological engine (I doubt that other world together is able to support notable practical sci/tech progress without USA - the money spent and number of papers published are giant but the effect is...) - and many other things you know as well as I do.

Ukrainian economy and courts are corrupt but Russian economy and courts are corrupt even more - the difference in income is made by money from oil and gas export. Ukraine wants to change. Russia does not want to change and does not want Ukraine to change. I believe the only reason of the Crimea annexation is to prevent Ukraine to change - to keep it poor and to accuse Europe and USA in the poverty of Ukraine to keep Russian citizens calm. Because Crimea is a great encumbrance to Russia economically and politically and I see no reason to annex it other than hurt Ukraine and distract Russians from internal problems.

USA and Europe are neutral to the Ukraine, but Russia proved to be a sworn enemy and we are forced to seek any help we can get. Also we want to share European values even if sceptical about European buerocracy.

Annexation wasn't made against the will of the majority of Crimeans, but they had not been asked (whatever referendum performances are made) and they will not be asked about anything any more. And you will not see unhappy Crimeans any more even if they are.

That's my point.

I think Ukrainians could have prevented it from happening by being a stable and non-corrupt country.

Yes, as I say before, rape victims are mostly responsible for being raped because of their bad behavior, provocative clothes and being too weak to resist. I congratulate you with such kind of logic.