Предлагаю прочитать статью "Сны разума", опубликованную в журнале "Однако". В статье кратко и чётко сформулированы идеологические причины распада СССР, с которыми я полностью согласен.
#19 (83)::Сны разума
Предлагаю прочитать статью "Сны разума", опубликованную в журнале "Однако". В статье кратко и чётко сформулированы идеологические причины распада СССР, с которыми я полностью согласен.
#19 (83)::Сны разума
Риторика в стиле "Главный демократ Ельцин и вся российская либеральная тусовка..." показывает, что статья не претендует на серьезность анализа причин распада СССР. И больше ставит автора на уровень "Московского Методологического Кружка"))
Дальше читать не стал.
Ну, честно говоря статья не впечатлила. Там намешано и много правдивого и много спорного. Многие положения уже не раз мы тут обсуждали в разных вариантах. Основное положение, которое утверждает, что мы не очень знали, чего хотели - верно. А подспудное, обычно высказываемое положение в таких случаях, что мы были наивны, а Америка этим воспользовалась - ложно. Красивые слова про "демократизацию" были, но про этом был и резкий дефицит товаров, были талоны и на сахар и на водку. И принудительный обмен денег в 3 дня был. И однодневная инфляция, когда все цены ВНЕЗАПНО подскочили в 3 раза, тоже была. Многие верили в рыночную экономику, но не верили, что может быть такой уровень коррупции. Многое было.
Мы не были наивны? Америка этим не воспользовалась?Quote:
А подспудное, обычно высказываемое положение в таких случаях, что мы были наивны, а Америка этим воспользовалась - ложно.
А мне понравилась статья, хоть я и читал её с некоторым предубеждением после двух последних комментариев. Вспомнил себя тогдашнего, да и других. Узнаваемо.
Ох, вопрос вопросов. Понимаешь, если тебя выпускают из страны в исключительных случаях, то ореол недоступности - штука непростая. Если практически всё, что тебя окружает хорошего качества - импортное. Если ты постоянно слышишь истории от тех, кто там был, про то, что в США можно жить не сильно хуже, чем у нас и при этом нигде не работать. Если ты слышишь истории, что в США обычный инженер живёт в своём доме с двумя машинами и т.д. В этом случае наша пропаганда про пользу построения развитого социализма в одной, отдельно взятой стране совсем не канает. Это при том, что вся бодяга-то собственно и замышлялась ради светлого будущего состоящего из чего? Правильно, в идеале от каждого по возможностям, каждому по потребностям. А разница между потребностями и их практическим "удовлетворением" познавалась в сравнении с ним, вечно загнивающим. По ходу дела, за правое дело удовлетворения потребностей наломали кучу дров, вроде как движемся ударными темпами от пятилетке к пятилетке, а воз и ныне там. А авторитетные источники эманируют нам серьёзные исследования про количество потребления белков, жиров и углеводов в СССР и в США на душу населения. А белок - он и есть белок. И из рябчика и из второсортной курицы. Ферштейн за нашу наивность?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
А про то, как США воспользовались этой нашей наивностью - это другая история, которую я расскажу тебе в следующую ночь, о повелитель. ;)
The sad thing is that the people gave up on the USSR which had many good points along with the bad,but for what?
So that oligarchs could "steal" everything that was worth having, lots of wars between people who had previously managed to live together without killing each other... and the rest of the country fell into chaos and disrepair, and Russians got a bad reputation
Everyone in Western Europe at least, at that time, knew that Eastern Europeans were "naive" and did not know the true value of things + lots of other things that people need to know in a capitalist society. There were lots of funny stories from Eastern Germany about that, because things happened so fast there. I am sure America took as much advantage of it as they could.
CIA analysts and others have scenarios for "what to do if x happens".
I am sure they had tons or ready-made plans for what to do in lots of different spheres, if the USSR started falling apart. From the point of view of economy, military. It was their dream come true anyway, and I think it has played out almost exactly as they wanted up until Putin came along.
If I was Russian, I think I would have preferred to keep the USSR together, and reform it at a slower pace, or perhaps revise why there were problems with Communism. Like Gorbachev tried, but without letting things get out of hand.
That said, I am really happy that Russia and the other countries are more open now, and that there is more freedom for regular people.
Hanna, have read the article? If yes, was it difficult?
Gorbachev is just a traitor. He deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union.Quote:
Like Gorbachev tried, but without letting things get out of hand.
Many Russian people have said on this forum that Gorbachev was a traitor.
It seems to be a common opinion.
What is it exactly that you don't like, that he did? The Glasnost idea? The perestroika idea? Allowing the USSR to disintegrate, or what?
What should he have done differently? Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?
What do people in other ex USSR countries think about him, for example Ukraine and Belarus?
Я не считаю Горбачёва плохим парнем. В любом случае менять что-то надо было. И в ту страну я не хотел бы, пожалуй, вернуться.
He did not ALLOW to desintegrate, he deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union. First, STATE Media started making anti-soviet propaganda in 1987. They also allowed to do the same to Radio Liberty and many other Western organizations. Then they allowed to convert cashless ruble into cash, private international trade and something else, that lead to deficiency (latent inflation) in 1988. I've heard that they deliberately caused shortage of food by sabotage. They destroyed all the socialist allies in Europe in 1989. Finally, in 1990 the law that described the procedure to quit the Union by a republic was accepted. Gorbachev allowed Eltsin to take power, who started the process of leaving of Russia the Soviet Union.Quote:
Allowing the USSR to disintegrate,
В истории нет "бы". (There is no "would" in history).Quote:
Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?
Probably the same, but you have more opportunities to ask them than me.Quote:
What do people in other ex USSR countries think about him, for example Ukraine and Belarus?
Have converted some part of military industry and gradually change stupid socialist ideology.Quote:
What should he have done differently?
You haven't answered my question, Hanna.
Well I didn't want to admit that the article was super hard to read and I gave up about 1/3 through... :-(Quote:
You haven't answered my question, Hanna.
=) Сегодня случайно наткнулся:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
http://www.ostashkov.ru/foto/free/FE61C218.jpegQuote:
Среднестатистический россиянин, по мнению чиновников, должен съедать по 366 г хлеба или макарон в день. При этом в 1941 г. паек для немецкого военнопленного, содержащегося в местах лишения свободы или в пути следования, составлял почти вдвое больше — 600 г. В пересчете на день немцы получали в три раза больше рыбы, немного больше овощей, а также вчетверо больше «соли, чая и специй».
Зато в продуктовом минимуме у россиян появились фрукты — по 63 г в день, яйца и молоко, чем немцев обделили. Россиянам также положено в два раза больше мяса, а москвичам — почти в три. Можно порадоваться и за то, что россияне должны получать, по мнению властей, на 40 г больше сладкого, чем немцы в дни войны, а также потреблять на 16 г больше масла. Хотя в пайке немцев, в отличие от общероссийской корзины, присутствовали еще и мука, томат-пюре, а в лучшие времена и горох, фасоль, сухофрукты и кофе.
Фото, видимо, предвоенное.
Hanna asked: What do people in other ex USSR countries think about Gorbachev?
So, there comes an answer :)
Lithuania also was a part of Soviet union back then and I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore.
I guess Gorbachev actually was the most normal president of Russia compared with other ones that ruled before him...
And actually I'm really happy that Lithuania was the first country who regained independence after these terrible years of occupation and other countries did the same. ( I guess now a lot of Russians who will read this will start to hate me because of what I said but, anyway, it's my oppinion)
Actually, I don't think that Soviet union do not exist anymore because of the things that Gorbachev did.
It's existance wouldn't have lasted much longer even if he hadn't ruled this country. I think that it's really naive to think that you can create a stong union by occupying the country, starting killing and deportating it's people to Siberia... destroying culture and language of this country... trying to make all it's people atheists, nationalizing all their lands and forcing them to work in these terrible farms and of course paying almost nothing for it...and doing many other terrible things and then expect that these countries will want to be a member of such union, even though they never wanted to be a part of it at all!!!
If such a union existed even now, the only one quite good thing would be just that now there wouldn't be any need for me to study Russian language by myself. And you know why? The answer is: because I would have been FORCED to learn that while I was still in primary school! Anyway, noone can change history and it would be quite stupid to start blaming someone now for the things that was done in my country, because nothing would change because of it anyway. But these things can never be delated from peoples' memory.
And many many many many thanks him for that :)Quote:
He did not ALLOW to desintegrate, he deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union.
And after him too :DQuote:
I guess Gorbachev actually was the most normal president of Russia compared with other ones that ruled before him...
Maybe except Yeltsin.
That's right - most of Baltic people think that way.Quote:
I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore.
Guess the only countries that liked being in the USSR and gained anything from that were its Asian republics. Whereas it was torture for its European territory. I totally understand you, guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Я думаю, что он был беспомощен в экономике и занимался только пиаром своих "реформ". Китайцы наоборот, начали с экономических свобод.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Горбачёву нужно было разрешить и организовать мелкий бизнес. Тем бы он решил проблему дефицита. А он вместо этого разрешил болтовню (гласность). А зачем голодным болтовня? Александр II освободил крестьян, но не дал им земли. А зачем стране крестьяне без земли? В общем, Горбачёв по моему мнению - слабый политик, который начал не с того. Да он вообще не политик, а аппаратчик. У него навыки проводить совещания и переговоры, а не страну строить.
Классная фотка. Выражение лиц - отпад. Все взгляды в одну точку и чувствуется, что посещение этого магазина - событие для людей не маловажное. В общем, узнаю нашу жисть...Quote:
Originally Posted by BappaBa
He should have given independence to Baltics much sooner - in 1985 when he got power.Quote:
What should he have done differently? Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?
And also should have ended war in Afghanistan much sooner.
But I agree that he should have given economic freedoms first and transistion to capitalism should have been more controlled.
Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual.:bad:
What makes you think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Their posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well. And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime. But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Все имеют право на своё мнение, любое. Не надо обзываться.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
It's pathetic. So what that I killed your family - I brought you a cake (that i stole from a neighbor) - or if you did not like what I have done, then you should give me my cake back.
I think most Lithuanians would rather choose independence instead of Vilnius region + Soviet occupation.
These are facts of history - ignoring them wont make them go away.Quote:
constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc.
Yes, but nothing like that happened in Baltics before occupation. Even when Kārlis Ulmanis got power in military coup - he killed no one.Quote:
such repressions took place all over USSR
Soviet occupation did not give us anything good - so it's no surprise that we are not particularly excited about it.
I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand.Quote:
The general attitude towards Russians
It is no surprise that Soviet Union disintegrated. Sad that it did not happen sooner.
It was not a normal country, but a giant prison.
First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS and try to remember it if you are able to do it. And this capital city was founded by Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (this city was mentioned in written resources in 1323) therefore, from the beginning of it’s existence it’s Lithuanians who always lived there, and the fact that in 1920 Armija Krajova occupied Vilnius and it became part of Poland till 1939 doesn’t mean that Vilnius is a Polish city. And I completely don’t understand what Belarus has common with Vilnius because this city hasn’t ever been a part of this country and Belarussians have no right to it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Vilnius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS
I'm not denying these facts, but constanly talking about it makes YOU pathetic - look that Germans did to Russians during WWII (and Balts were happily helping them in this): 27 million killed, 18 million from this number are civillians, but we don't blame modern Germans for this, actually attitude to modern Germans in Russia is rather friendly, we blame Hitler and Nazism wich are secretly admired in Baltics nowdays. How about acting like grown-ups and forgive&forget like we did?Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
I do not hate Balts either, it's just the behavior of some of them that pisses me off. Btw, what so-called "Putin regime" did to you that you can't stand it? Prohibited sprats export to Russia or what? I thought Russia can't affect you now when you are in EU and NATO, so unless you live in Russia I don't see how current Russian goverment could do you any harm.Quote:
I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand.
I don't care how it's called in your language, it was called Вильно in Russian through most of it's history, so I prefer to call it so along with Reval, Helsingfors etc. And it doesn't matter who founded what, you would be the first who would scream out loud about Russian imperialism if Russians would demand back all cities we founded. And btw, majority of Wilno population in 1939 were Jews (44%), how convinient that soon nazis came and murdered them all (not without help of Lithuanians), huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by mergike
Most of Russians see the annexation of Baltic republic (actually Baltic governments requested USSR membership, under Stalin's pressure, yes, you could resist as Finland successfully did but your governments had chosen to not) as a necessary evil wich were needed to keep nazi forces further from Russian borders in aticipation of big war, wich was obviously inevitable, also it's viewed as an unsignificant side-event, so actually we don't pay much attention to this.Quote:
Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...
You shouldn't worry, I call these Russians faggots too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
And what makes a regime legal? AFAIK in the modern world it's a UN membership and following international agreements. It's funny that this "illegal" regime as you called it was one of the founders of UN itself.Quote:
And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime.
Russians "took over and opressed many neighbor contries", my ass. First, attitude to the people in national republics from the goverment didn't differ from the attitute to the people in ethnic Russian regions. Second, USSR was an empire "upside-down" actually: almost all national republics comsumed more overall GDP than produced and were leeching metropoly instead of feeding it. So it's a big question who opressed whom, please stop writing nonsense about Russians who thinks that it's good that we "opressed" somebody.Quote:
But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...
Haha you do not hate Balts:D but you call us faggots! This greatly shows how much you love us! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much. So how you‘ll explain this???
And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
LOL :D So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you?? :D That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum :D whahahahah :D then maybe you can explain for to me this fact :D if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘ :D then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free demokratic respublics????? :D
you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this :D :
Quote:
Originally Posted by BappaBa
Do you think that if you put there fake photos and will say that it was Lithuanians who killed these Jewish people in Lietūkis it will be a proof? It won‘t be a proof at all.
Because the first photo has appeared in Polish press and under it was said that it‘s Polish prosecuted pogrom in Kelcai (city in south of Poland) but not the killings in Lietūkis garages. So how should one understand this fact???
But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake :) This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars???
Of course, I don‘t say that there was no Lithuanian who killed a Jewish (some were forced by Nazis), but as I said before most of Lithuanian people tried to save lives of Jewish people because we never had anything against them.
Doesn‘t it really seems strange to you that since middle ages there was no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish and just suddenly when Nazis occupied Lithuania all Lithuanians started to ‘‘hate‘‘ Jewish so much?
It‘s silly to put the blame on Lithuanians for Jewish massacres in my country, when most of the people risked their own lives to save these Jewish people.
But anyway, why are you delving in topics about holocaust, when this thread was started do talk about Russia and collapse of Soviet Union? Don‘t you think that holocaust is off this topic????
I called so not the Baltic people in general, but only the ones who expressed such opinions as yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by mergike
By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).Quote:
Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much. So how you‘ll explain this???
How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.Quote:
And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man!
See photos in ВарраВа's post.Quote:
I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified
You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now:Quote:
So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you?? :D That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum :D whahahahah :D then maybe you can explain for to me this fact :D if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘ :D then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free demokratic respublics????? :D
you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4...iousbaltic.png
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
1940 06 14 Lithuania received ultimatum from Russia which demanded to make a new government and guarantee entrance for red army which will be located in main strategic points in Lithuania. Lithuania had to answer to this ultimatum till June 15th, 10 o’clock in the morning. However, in 1940. 06. 15 morning soviets were already there and occupied Lithuania (bringing to Lithuania 15 red army divisions, about 150 thousands of soldiers).
Therefore SSRS with this ultimatum broke:
1920 07 12 peace treaty between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1926 september 28th nonaggression and neutrality pact between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1939 october 10th mutual help agreement.
In 1940 June 17th USSR also occupied Užnemunės region, which under 1939 September 28th treaty between Germany and Russia belonged to Germany, therefore later on Russia paid 7,5 million dollar compensation to Germany. And then all Lithuania belonged to USSR. This is what is called ILLEGAL OCCUPATION which left no choice for Lithuanians to resist (however, there was a partizanian war against USSR in 1944-1953), because red army already was in Lithuania’s territory.
Learn some history first of all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Then you still hate most of them because most ot Baltic people think the same way.