Thread: Yushchenko Poisoning

Originally Posted by Елена *

[
Besides, from what sources you have learned that in Russia poisoning people is normal?

It is not normal, but there have been a few poisoning stories going around.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004 ... aine_x.htm

There was poison in Rasputin"s wine.

Some say that Stalin was injected with poison by the guard Khrustalev, under the orders of his master, KGB chief Lavrenty Beria.

It is not normal, but there have been a few poisoning stories going around.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004 ... aine_x.htm

There was poison in Rasputin"s wine.[/quote]

It proves nothing. Not a secret that sometimes they make away with "inconvenient" people. It can take place in any country. Even with the most democratic mode

Originally Posted by Елена *

It proves nothing. Not a secret that sometimes they make away with "inconvenient" people. It can take place in any country. Even with the most democratic mode

I am not trying to prove anything. I am just answering your question about poisoning in Russia. I can tell you this, when "they" want to get rid of "incovenient" people here, they usually use some means other than poison. Bullets are popular here!

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Елена *

It proves nothing. Not a secret that sometimes they make away with "inconvenient" people. It can take place in any country. Even with the most democratic mode

I am not trying to prove anything. I am just answering your question about poisoning in Russia. I can tell you this, when "they" want to get rid of "incovenient" people here, they usually use some means other than poison. Bullets are popular here!

I always know that the Russians have fertile imagination

Originally Posted by DDT

I am not trying to prove anything. I am just answering your question about poisoning in Russia. I can tell you this, when "they" want to get rid of "incovenient" people here, they usually use some means other than poison. Bullets are popular here!

As well as torture. And torture combined with public humiliation. And more subtle forms such as beatings at police stations, rape and pillage during arrests. I have a satellite dish at home so I can watch YOUR channels - I'm horrified how often they show acts of human rights violation in YOUR countries. Knock YOUR countries into democratic shape before you come here to pontificate on the vileness of Russians.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by DDT

I am not trying to prove anything. I am just answering your question about poisoning in Russia. I can tell you this, when "they" want to get rid of "incovenient" people here, they usually use some means other than poison. Bullets are popular here!

As well as torture. And torture combined with public humiliation. And more subtle forms such as beatings at police stations, rape and pillage during arrests. I have a satellite dish at home so I can watch YOUR channels - I'm horrified how often they show acts of human rights violation in YOUR countries. Knock YOUR countries into democratic shape before you come here to pontificate on the vileness of Russians.

Well done VendingMachine!

Oh no, you've got it all wrong. I can personally attest that all that torture and police beatings in our police stations is done in "good cheer" and with the utmost consideration for each other, with no hard feelings and everyone later is invited out for icecream at Dairy Queen where they eagerly await their sundaes with tiny American flags on toothpicks in them, to arrive at their tables.
As for the rape and pillaging. I feel certain that this is merely an unfortunate mistake down at the TV studio where it is commonly known that some of the late night staff, with many pimples, occasionally push the wrong buttons and accidentally broadcast live the XXX movie that they have been secretly watching. So you see, all is well here.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Give me proof that the US went on the Moon.

Actually, this is debatable subject.
But I tend to believe, what these NASA video records were true.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Give me the proof Stalin lived.

Probably, the superpower he built is sufficient proof?

Originally Posted by Mordan

Give me proof that you live at all and are not a bot managed by an apparatchik? Give me proof...

Why I must bother? Think of me as of bot, if you like.
If "ad hominem" arguments are a best you can think of...

Originally Posted by Mordan

I only have my eyes, my reasoning, my experience to infer that he was poisoined. He was leading the poll when he was poisoned, or so I heard.

Do you have any medical experience?

Originally Posted by Mordan

Look at his face god damn it. @##$% look at his face! That's proof enough for me.

For me, too, it's quite sufficient proof, what this person is ill and demands some medical treatment.
However, I'll leave to qualified doctors the decision about nature of his illness.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I just heard at the radio that an Amsterdam based laboratory had found that his dioxin level was actually 6000 times higher than normal. I consider him lucky if he survives this ordeal.

First: I'm no medic. My knowledge in this area is close to zero.
The only thing I can do is to quote media sources. Well, nearly all of them state, what if "dioxin level was actually 6000 times higher than normal" -- he is not only lucky -- he is absolute medical phenomenon! AFAIK, no normal human can survive such massive poisoning (maybe only Rasputin, if somebody resurrects him . Also: no normal person can ingest needed amount of dioxine during one dinner -- even if he do it intentionally, and dioxine was served unlimitely as first, second and third course.
How do your favorite radio explain all these?

Originally Posted by Mordan

Moreover I tend to trust a lot more the independent western clinics than the enslaved and corrupted russian clinic officials.
I'm afraid that anything told by russian officials cannot be trusted at all.

Did I quote "russian clinic officials"?
I just quoted the doctors from this Austrian clinic -- with their totally contradictory statements.
I think, what if someone claims, that 2*2 = 4 -- and than claims, that 2 *2 = 5 -- such person or organisation just can't be trusted. And you even don't need to know basic arithmetics to make such conclusion.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Reason: look at the culture of secrecy and authoritrianism that is the one of the KGB. And unless I'm really malinformed, but the KGB now rules Russia.

You're seriously malinformed. KGB ceased to exist in 1991.

Originally Posted by Mordan

This argument is paramount to discard nearly automatically russian's officials words. Give me a russian free media and I will listen again.

"Moskovskie Novosti" ("MN") -- http://www.mn.ru/
"Moskovskiy Komsomolets" ("MK") -- http://www.mk.ru/
"Argumenty i Fakty" ("AiF") -- http://www.aif.ru/

If this is not enough, I can give you 10-20 links more.

Originally Posted by Mordan

That's sad, but you got to know it takes a long time to earn and built up credibility and just a second to lose it all.

You're overpessimistic. Believe me, in Russia people did believe the western media for tens of years! Real shame to remember...

Originally Posted by Mordan

I might sound harsh, but you guys got to face it, Putin ain't doing much good to your country, with all those "siloviki" (?) around him. Raping Yukos while not touching other russian oil companies? WTH? What is that if not super high corruption. Everyone is equal in front of the law. Why Khodorkovsky and not the others? As a result western investors are being extremely wary and when oil prices go down, Putin = kaput. I was hopeful he was the man, but no more. Once in the KGB, forever ...
I support Kasparov

*yawn*
There is *one* criterium for which politics can be judged -- the result of their actions.
Look at Russia in 1999, then Putin became premier.
Look at Russia in 2004.
Try to compare.

Originally Posted by drew881

Your statement here is a little flawed. Perhaps the lesions, acute pancreatis and rash or ulcers were caused by the poison?

Disclaimer again: I'M NOT A DOCTOR.
So, the only thing I can do is to consults the free medical on-line sources. For example, WikiPedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_pancreatitis:

Acute pancreatitis is a rapidly-onset inflammation of the pancreas. Depending on its severity, it can have severe complications and high mortality despite treatment. While mild cases settle with conservative measures or endoscopy, severe cases require surgery (often more than one intervention) to contain the disease process.

A common mnemonic for the causes of pancreatitis is: "GET SMASHED", an acronym for Gallstones, Ethanol (alcohol), Trauma, Steroids, Mumps, Autoimmune, Scorpion venom, Hyper- (calcemia and triglyceridemia), ERCP and Drugs.

So, as I can see, there's a choice of possible reasons -- including Ethanol, Steroids, Drugs, and even Scorpion venom (my favorite! ) -- but, alas, excluding dioxine. Dioxine is never mentioned in this article.

Originally Posted by drew881

On an off topic question. What do the Russians on this forum think of the presidential candidate from Russia Rybkin who was supposedly drugged and kidnapped and taken to Kiev to film some dirty tapes to blackmail him. When did this happen, two years ago? Is he lying or maybe something like this happened.

Not "two ears ago", but this spring, right before elections.
For me it looks like a some extremelly dirty (and, most probably, failed) political provocation.
Rybkin was backed by Berezovsky -- who is a true master of extremely dirty political provocations.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Originally Posted by Mordan

Even though there is no proof about the link between the government and the Yushchenko poisoning, there is a high probability that is indeed what happened.

Mord

Please, give me some proof, what Yuscenko was poisoned!

Give me proof that the US went on the Moon. Give me the proof Stalin lived. Give me proof that you live at all and are not a bot managed by an apparatchik? Give me proof...

I only have my eyes, my reasoning, my experience to infer that he was poisoined. He was leading the poll when he was poisoned, or so I heard.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

AFAIK, the only proof we currently have is the statement made by director of Austrian clinic, where Yuscenko was examined.

Look at his face god damn it. @##$% look at his face! That's proof enough for me.
I just heard at the radio that an Amsterdam based laboratory had found that his dioxin level was actually 6000 times higher than normal. I consider him lucky if he survives this ordeal.

Moreover I tend to trust a lot more the independent western clinics than the enslaved and corrupted russian clinic officials.
I'm afraid that anything told by russian officials cannot be trusted at all. Reason: look at the culture of secrecy and authoritrianism that is the one of the KGB. And unless I'm really malinformed, but the KGB now rules Russia. This argument is paramount to discard nearly automatically russian's officials words. Give me a russian free media and I will listen again.
That's sad, but you got to know it takes a long time to earn and built up credibility and just a second to lose it all.

I might sound harsh, but you guys got to face it, Putin ain't doing much good to your country, with all those "siloviki" (?) around him. Raping Yukos while not touching other russian oil companies? WTH? What is that if not super high corruption. Everyone is equal in front of the law. Why Khodorkovsky and not the others? As a result western investors are being extremely wary and when oil prices go down, Putin = kaput. I was hopeful he was the man, but no more. Once in the KGB, forever ...

I support Kasparov

[/quote]

Your experience is a result of reading newspapers and watching TV. Do you think it's enough? Maybe he decided to commit suicide in such perverted way or he ate some poison to create a scandal around himself. Or maybe it's his wife. It's very convenient. Everything will be taken out on a policy.

Originally Posted by DDT

Oh no, you've got it all wrong. I can personally attest that all that torture and police beatings in our police stations is done in "good cheer" and with the utmost consideration for each other, with no hard feelings and everyone later is invited out for icecream at Dairy Queen where they eagerly await their sundaes with tiny American flags on toothpicks in them, to arrive at their tables.
As for the rape and pillaging. I feel certain that this is merely an unfortunate mistake down at the TV studio where it is commonly known that some of the late night staff, with many pimples, occasionally push the wrong buttons and accidentally broadcast live the XXX movie that they have been secretly watching. So you see, all is well here.

OK, DDT, I like your sence of humour, so I'm determined to spare you this time. Keep cracking those jokes, kid.

Originally Posted by Елена *

Or maybe it's his wife.

Absolutely. Chercher la femme. Think harder next time, Sherlock.

Good poem, addressed to Yuscenko followers. Just can't resist...

Стороннику Ющенко, митингующему на площади

Ты – один из толпы. Средь кричащих людей
Ты, конечно, считаешь себя гражданином,
Глотку рвя за ничтожных, продажных вождей,
Что, гоняясь за долларом, рвут Украину.

Обещаньями сладкими манят тебя,
Призывая стоять под оранжевым флагом,
Те, кто, русских соседей своих невзлюбя,
Говорит, мол, нам Запад подарит все блага.

Ты от гнева и ярости сжал кулаки
И считаешь, что Ющенко – твой избавитель.
Но смотри, как извечные любят враги
Тех, кто учит сегодня тебя ненавидеть!

Может быть, твой отец или дед воевал
Рядом с русскими против фашистской оравы
И, в атаку стремясь, он, конечно, не знал,
Что вернется на Родину призрак кровавый.

Что ж, в палатке ночуй, митингуй, замерзай,
Пред лгунами-вождями склоняйся в поклоне!
А в награду тебе – «апельсиновый рай» –
Незавидная участь беднейших колоний!

Вспомни Сербию, Грузию. Что получил
Одураченный люд? Нищету и страданья!
С твоей помощью к власти идут палачи!
Как потом ты отыщешь себе оправданье?!

Возвращайся домой! Перестань, наконец,
Быть послушной игрушкой в руках кукловодов!
Над такими, как ты, лишь смеется делец,
Продающий фальшивку с названьем «свобода»!

Ты им веришь? Неужто наивный такой?
Нет, не злобы, а мудрости ждет Украина!
Возвращайся домой! Возвращайся домой!
Уходи с этой площади! Будь гражданином!

Originally Posted by Елена *

Your experience is a result of reading newspapers and watching TV. Do you think it's enough? Maybe he decided to commit suicide in such perverted way or he ate some poison to create a scandal around himself. Or maybe it's his wife. It's very convenient. Everything will be taken out on a policy.

Well I know it might be him or his wife, but to me it looks much less likely. It is thinking that George Bush is behind 9/11. Such thinking serves people who are in denial, people who can't face the most likely outcome because it teachs them something they don't want to hear.

You are right about my experience, but I trust my newspapers, especially the Economist.

Originally Posted by Mordan

You are right about my experience, but I trust my newspapers, especially the Economist.

Доверять нельзя никому. Мне можно.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Why I must bother? Think of me as of bot, if you like.
If "ad hominem" arguments are a best you can think of...

I meant that 100% certainty does not exists for you and me. You cannot prove me anything at 100% certainty, nor can I do that for you.
We are simply talking about likeliness and probability once you consider all the parameters you have in hand that is : History of Russia and Putin, medical facts, History of Yushchenko, Psychology of humans etc. Facts like strong support of Putin to Yushchenko opponent (btw a strong state interference).

As for medical experience, I trust our laboratory (like Amsterdam) to make good analysis of Yushchenko blood.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

For me, too, it's quite sufficient proof, what this person is ill and demands some medical treatment.
However, I'll leave to qualified doctors the decision about nature of his illness.

Lol do you reeally believe he is "ill" ?

So doctors around Europe are not qualified. They did say clearly this week that he was poisoned. Don' t you agree in the past they might have doubts about it. No of course, all you want to point out is the stuff that conforts you in your denial.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

"Moskovskie Novosti" ("MN") -- http://www.mn.ru/
"Moskovskiy Komsomolets" ("MK") -- http://www.mk.ru/
"Argumenty i Fakty" ("AiF") -- http://www.aif.ru/

If this is not enough, I can give you 10-20 links more.

I knew about mn, thanks for the other two. But I don't think many ordinary people go read those sites. I want to hear a russian TV network free of state interference before I take hope again in the future of Russia.

Of course if this network is just a stupid government basher, I would agree with you that this would be counter-productive and useless. That is one of the argument of Putin actually.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Originally Posted by Mordan

That's sad, but you got to know it takes a long time to earn and built up credibility and just a second to lose it all.

You're overpessimistic. Believe me, in Russia people did believe the western media for tens of years! Real shame to remember...

So today western medias are laughed at by Russians?

I hope for Russia that indeed the results of Putin's politics will be good.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

*yawn*
There is *one* criterium for which politics can be judged -- the result of their actions.
Look at Russia in 1999, then Putin became premier.
Look at Russia in 2004.
Try to compare.

While I might agree on the whole, be careful about one thing: if you compare Yeltsin and Putin, don't forget to draw a graph of oil prices during their terms and factor that in. The Russian economy is so heavily dependent on it. We can hope that will change, but it will be slow, for sure.

As a foreigner who has some experience of Russia, I'd say that I had a much more positive impression of Putin 2-3 years ago than I do today.
(I feel the same way about Tony Blair too).
The Western media's opinions about Putin do seem irritating and ridiculous sometimes, but not much more ridiculous than the Russian media's fawning.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Originally Posted by Scorpio

"Moskovskie Novosti" ("MN") -- http://www.mn.ru/
"Moskovskiy Komsomolets" ("MK") -- http://www.mk.ru/
"Argumenty i Fakty" ("AiF") -- http://www.aif.ru/
If this is not enough, I can give you 10-20 links more.

I knew about mn, thanks for the other two. But I don't think many ordinary people go read those sites. I want to hear a russian TV network free of state interference before I take hope again in the future of Russia.

Argumenty I Fakty is popular all around Russia and can be bought in any kiosk. I used to enjoy trying to decipher it from time to time, but it was very difficult for me. A lot of strange jokes.

From what I've heard and seen, I agree that there is a bit of an issue with Russian TV (one thing about Putin I don't like). At the same time, don't fall into the trap of thinking that a privately-owned media is necessarily 'free'. The big corporations can end up producing the most horrendous propaganda - witness 'Fox News', comparable with anything dreamed up by Goebbels.

Originally Posted by Mordan

So today western medias are laughed at by Russians?

Laughed at? Perhaps not. Believed? Not really.
Read, watched or listened to at all? Only by a tiny fraction of the population!
Should it be believed? Certainly not.
Although the French language media is admittedly far more worthy of attention - it's a shame that most Russians only learn English.

Originally Posted by waxwing

Should it be believed? Certainly not.
Although the French language media is admittedly far more worthy of attention - it's a shame that most Russians only learn English.

Well people should read www.lefigaro.fr. It is a right wing paper, but it is really good and the editorials from Adler are awesome. I'm glad to speak French indeed.
Nevertheless I don't see anything wrong about CNN international edition and BBC news. And The Economist. The Economist was pro-putin, a few years ago, as I was. But no more since the gangbang of Yukos and Ukraine elections.

And why should russian media not believe it? Because they say things they don't want to hear?
Well at least by listening to western media you have a clear picture of how We see Putin and today's russia

Originally Posted by Mordan

But no more since the gangbang of Yukos and Ukraine elections.

And what clear information you have?

Originally Posted by Mordan

And why should russian media not believe it? Because they say things they don't want to hear?

Beacuse they live there and see something you don't see.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Well at least by listening to western media you have a clear picture of how We see Putin and today's russia

The media is projecting the picture right in your mind.