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Thread: What can be done to prevent terrorism?

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    Почётный участник Sgt. Cold's Avatar
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    What can be done to prevent terrorism?

    (Spin off from Suicide Murderer in Moscow airport. Why kill innocent people? )

    On what grounds were my posts deleted lampada? I read the MR rules and I did not break any. I made no Personal attacks! Those are my opinions and they are shared by millions of people. It seems that you have become the board nazi since your elevation to Moderator. This board has been steadily declining since then. Put 2 and 2 together!
    Speech that some people don't like is protected speech also, in fact that is why free people enacted laws to protect freedom of speech. Laws aren't needed to protect speech that everyone agrees with!

    We are all in a war here and I and my companions are the foot soldiers but not only do we have to fight for our freedom, we have to deal with fools on the sidelines.

    Fortheether asked a question and am answered it. Go read the question! .....Innocent people are dying because of Islam. This is not news to anyone, particularly Russians, who have actually read history of 10 or more wars against Islamic invasions. They have always done this type of thing, even up until recent times.

    They say Stalin did some bad things but if you look closer you will see that sometimes was protecting Russia from Muslims. Stalin deported many. Muslims were allies of Adolf Hitler while WWII and fought against Russians and Serbians peoples, killing hundreds of thousands. Why do innocent people die? Because Muslims invaded Chechnya and polluted the Slavic people. That is the only reason Chechnya is unhappy with Russia.
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck View Post
    Senseless acts of violence are just that: senseless. The only people to whom this makes sense are the same kind of fanatics who carry it out. To the rest of us it's just a tragic waste of life.

    I'm always amazed at just how stupid human beings can be, but it's when that stupidity harms or threatens other people that it makes me really angry.
    They can be violent acts but I doubt they are senseless. There are people who make politics and/or business this way. This is cruel, granted, this is inhuman, but somebody has paid quite an amount of money for this monstrosity to take place. People like that, despite what others may think of them, seldom do anything without expecting some political or economical dividends from that. Terrorism is a reality of modern society. This could have happenned at any time, at any place. I doubt there's a cure against this disease. It's a constant risk everyone should accept.


    @Sgt. Cold
    Are you so sure that those who did it were muslims? No, I'm not speaking about the brainless pawns who put explosives on and connect the wires. I'm speaking about those who make the decisions? Are you so absolutely sure? Well, I'm not.

    Look, people, just some facts that could have no connection whatsoever.
    1. There was nationalistic turmoil on Manezh square in December. Well, nothing breath-taking, but Putin DID meet the footbal fans leaders later and tried to talk sense to them (he'd never done anything like that with any other manifestants).

    2. Security measures against immigrants were strengthened

    3. Now this explosion.
    What feelings will it stir in common population (especially after they told on TV that this was done by the 'Caucassian underground')? Fear? No. We risk every day and the risk of getting into a car accident is much greater than the risk of being exploded... still. But hate? Yes. Hate.

    It appears that there are people in Russia who want to stir as much national antagonism in Russia as possible. And I doubt they can be possibly muslims.
    Send me a PM if you need me.

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    Почётный участник Sgt. Cold's Avatar
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    Possible that the money came from Islamists in Afghaninstan and Pakistan. Israel president Netanyahu says that Israel stands with Russia.
    Russia: Moscow attack may be linked to Afghanistan militias - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    They can be violent acts but I doubt they are senseless. There are people who make politics and/or business this way. This is cruel, granted, this is inhuman, but somebody has paid quite an amount of money for this monstrosity to take place. People like that, despite what others may think of them, seldom do anything without expecting some political or economical dividends from that. Terrorism is a reality of modern society. This could have happenned at any time, at any place. I doubt there's a cure against this disease. It's a constant risk everyone should accept.
    My point isn't that there's no rationale behind it (however f***ed up that rationale might be), it's that to anyone with a shred of humanity it's senseless.

    You doubt that there's a cure? Well, there will never be a permanent cure for stupidity, but I think eventually (and it will take a long time, possibly many generations) there will be a cure for this kind of fanaticism. Even if there are still evil men who would wish to corrupt others into doing this kind of thing, if the fanaticism dies out there will be no gullible young people left for them to use.

    What do you mean exactly by doubting that the people who make the decisions are Muslims? Are you saying they do not believe in their own minds that they are Muslims, or are you simply saying that they do not adhere to Islam as written in the Qur'an? I think you're wrong on both counts. Their political motive is to spread Islam and Islamic laws to the West. And if you're taking the "Islam is a religion of peace" line, it's all a matter of interpretation. The Qur'an contains many contradictions (as does the Bible). You can make these "holy books" say almost anything you want through the right lens of interpretation. There are many peaceful, respectable, level-headed Muslims, but who's to say their interpretation is any less valid than those crazy zealots hiding out in some cave? This is the problem - if you take an outdated, ambiguous "holy book" as your only moral guide, you're going to have problems.

    Here's an example of what I mean:
    religionofpeace.com
    thereligionofpeace.com
    Two websites - the only thing to separate them is the use of the definite article in their titles - however they take interpretations of Islam that couldn't be more different (the second one uses the title ironically). Both use plenty of quotations from the Qur'an and hadith to back up their claims. It all depends on which quotations one selects.
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck View Post
    You doubt that there's a cure? Well, there will never be a permanent cure for stupidity, but I think eventually (and it will take a long time, possibly many generations) there will be a cure for this kind of fanaticism.
    stupidity and fanaticism are the two words I do not agree with.
    These acts are planned and organized by people who can't be called stupid fanatics and that's what make them so dangerous.


    What do you mean exactly by doubting that the people who make the decisions are Muslims? Are you saying they do not believe in their own minds that they are Muslims, or are you simply saying that they do not adhere to Islam as written in the Qur'an?
    I'm saying that there can be non-muslim players who might want to stir as much antagonism between different religious confessions in Russia. If I was a crazy enough Russian nationalist (not stupid, but crazy) and wanted to carry out such an act to justify my planned atrocities against the muslims I would hire a stupid caucassian, brainwash him and make him blow himself out in the middle of the crowd. Then I would stand up and say 'Look, they attacked us, let's kill'em all!' Can you always rule out the possibility of a provokation completely? Russia is a very murky place right now and all kinds of wicked powerful people are lurking behind the scenes.

    I think you're wrong on both counts. Their political motive is to spread Islam and Islamic laws to the West. And if you're taking the "Islam is a religion of peace" line, it's all a matter of interpretation. The Qur'an contains many contradictions (as does the Bible). You can make these "holy books" say almost anything you want through the right lens of interpretation. There are many peaceful, respectable, level-headed Muslims, but who's to say their interpretation is any less valid than those crazy zealots hiding out in some cave? This is the problem - if you take an outdated, ambiguous "holy book" as your only moral guide, you're going to have problems.
    I'm not saying that all muslims are saint, nevertheless, I have many muslim friends (even relatives) whom I can't blame for what had happenned. Those seemingly easy ways to divide the people are usually wrong. You might even say that there are no 'easy way' to distinguish between bad people and good people and religion has nothing to do with it. I doubt that such distinction is possible at all. In fact I have a number of Slavic, ethnic Russians whom I hate more than Caucassians.
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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    If I was a crazy enough Russian nationalist (not stupid, but crazy) and wanted to carry out such an act to justify my planned atrocities against the muslims I would hire a stupid caucassian, brainwash him and make him blow himself out in the middle of the crowd. Then I would stand up and say 'Look, they attacked us, let's kill'em all!'
    Гмммм... а как будет по-русски "Troofer"?

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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    I'm not saying that all muslims are saint, nevertheless, I have many muslim friends (even relatives) whom I can't blame for what had happenned. Those seemingly easy ways to divide the people are usually wrong. You might even say that there are no 'easy way' to distinguish between bad people and good people and religion has nothing to do with it. I doubt that such distinction is possible at all. In fact I have a number of Slavic, ethnic Russians whom I hate more than Caucassians.
    Of course you can't blame all members of a particular group for something that was carried out by a small minority within that group. I never said you could. Like I say, I'm certain that many Muslims are decent, level-headed human beings. But the reason they are that way is because they don't blindly swallow the words of their holy texts.
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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    These acts are planned and organized by people who can't be called stupid fanatics and that's what make them so dangerous.
    +1

    I'm against blaming Islam per se. Religion has any excuse to any taste, you can tweak it the way you want.

    @Sgt. Cold
    I agree with what you're saying to some degree, but it's very complex. Your conclusion seems to be overly simplistic to me. Let me give you an example. Let's say a local governor declared a war on local mafia and started more intense prosecution of the criminals. So, when being asked, why had those criminals murdered people, they would claim their victims threatened their families, so it was their family thing ("cosa nostra") to punish the offenders. So, based on those claims, would you really believe that the family values is a wrong thing to believe in?

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cold View Post
    On what grounds were my posts deleted lampada? I read the MR rules and I did not break any. I made no Personal attacks! Those are my opinions and they are shared by millions of people. It seems that you have become the board nazi since your elevation to Moderator. This board has been steadily declining since then. Put 2 and 2 together!
    Speech that some people don't like is protected speech also, in fact that is why free people enacted laws to protect freedom of speech. Laws aren't needed to protect speech that everyone agrees with!

    We are all in a war here and I and my companions are the foot soldiers but not only do we have to fight for our freedom, we have to deal with fools on the sidelines. ...
    I am sorry that you feel this way about the forum and you might be right about me being an insufficient moderator, but I would never stand for any kinds of hate speech, especially on this forum.

    Really, what was you nick before? Бармалей?
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    As much as I want to agree with Sgt.C. and D.D. on this point, but I have to admit that Ramil has more solid and reasonable position in this discussion. I don't like those guys who show their @sses to their god while praying too, but we must admit: the problem is radical Islam, not Islam in general.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

  11. #11
    Hanna
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    Just to say I am so sorry that this has happened yet again.

    It's hard to understand this, harder I think than the "terrorism" (some might call it freedom fighting) in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I think Russia has shown that it accepts that Caucasus being quite seriously muslim (such as in Chechnya which seems to be operating under semi-sharia judging from what I read. Women wearing islamic dress in pictures and lots of laws from straight out of the Koran being in place. (If that's what the majority there prefer, then I think they should have it.... )

    I wonder what regular people in Caucasus make of this. Do they hate Russians and think that this is a great success. Or would they like these people locked up as much as anyone else?

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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    As much as I want to agree with Sgt.C. and D.D. on this point, but I have to admit that Ramil has more solid and reasonable position in this discussion. I don't like those guys who show their @sses to their god while praying too, but we must admit: the problem is radical Islam, not Islam in general.
    The phrase that springs to mind is: "don't hate the player, hate the game".

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I think Russia has shown that it accepts that Caucasus being quite seriously muslim (such as in Chechnya which seems to be operating under semi-sharia judging from what I read. Women wearing islamic dress in pictures and lots of laws from straight out of the Koran being in place. (If that's what the majority there prefer, then I think they should have it.... )
    Another thing I have to disagree with. By this logic, as long as there are more slave owners than slaves, slavery is perfectly acceptable (as the majority prefer it). Yes, laws should be made for the good of the governed, but not to the extent where the "greater good" steamrollers over the rights of a minority.
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Behind all this I see a thorough policy of alienation of Caucasus from the rest of Russia as a part of even greater strategy. Well, I could live with it if only this policy was not a policy of our own government. I'm afraid that Russian territory will shrink to barely fit the Central-Russian plain within the next 20-30 years. Caucasus will separate, the Far-Eastern territories and a part of Siberia will be slowly assimilated by the Chinese and there will be several independent republics to the east from the Volga river.
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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    but we must admit: the problem is radical Islam, not Islam in general.
    "Не 'исламисты' вообще, а 'вахабиты'." (К. Еськов)

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    Почётный участник Sgt. Cold's Avatar
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    Here is the root of the problem as I see it. We agree that many people who call themselves Moslem do not agree with these suicide bombings. But we must also understand that the inventor of Islam, Mohamed, did agree with this type of thing and recommended "terror" as a weapon as well as used such.

    So who are we going to blame? The Moslems who actually do what Mohamed says or the Moslems who say that they are Moslems but do not follow his example as they should? Then why do they call themselves Moslem? It is because of generations of brainwashing from birth into this all encompassing system. That would not be so bad if the system were pure. But this system is based on using fear and terror. This is not just a rumor. This is fact. Mohamed used attacked peaceful people, TORTURED survivors into revealing where valuables were hidden, and then Mohamed divided up the stolen things with his warriors. Mohamed kept 20% for himself because "Allah said he should do this".

    So the problem becomes that there are people on this planet who actually believe a person like Mohamed was a real prophet and they try to be like Mohamed. As long as people do this, believe that Mohamed was a good man, the whole world is in trouble.

    As for Ramil's suggestion that other evil men have used the Moslems to further a secret political agenda. This overlooks the fact that two enemies sometime join together to fight a third party. Both of these parties believe that they are using the other. Moslems are using these evil men too! But, as I am saying, if people did not believe that a 7th century warlord was "the next best thing to sliced bread" then there would be no Moslems with a gripe in the first place. This is the truth of the matter and the truth hurts all those who have been beguiled until they come to accept it as true. It is a hard process, but we all must face this process together or we can not face it at all. People who suffer from the mental disease of Islam need our help and we are not helping to them if we keep lying to them and telling them that we have respect for those who respect a madman.
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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    The only thing that I really disagree with you on Sgt. Cold is that Islam is a "mental disease". It's no more of a mental disease than any other form of self-deception, and I don't think Muslims are generally more self-deceptive than most other human beings (just that they succumb to one particular form of self-deception which happens to be more potentially dangerous than most).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck View Post
    Here's an example of what I mean:
    religionofpeace.com
    thereligionofpeace.com
    Two websites - the only thing to separate them is the use of the definite article in their titles - however they take interpretations of Islam that couldn't be more different (the second one uses the title ironically). Both use plenty of quotations from the Qur'an and hadith to back up their claims. It all depends on which quotations one selects.
    It's not just a matter of which quotations one uses. The principal difference is that there's a standard way of analyzing the Quran and hadith for nearly 1400 years (to be exact, there are a few different ways in which to do it, but the ways and the results don't vary greatly when it comes to issues of war). You use this verse or hadith in this circumstance while neglecting others, etc. The first link is based upon the standard method of analyzing. The second uses current events and tries to justify them using quotations as they see fit. It's easily documented the atrocities committed by Muslims. They try to show that it's inherent to Islam and Islamic law. The only way to truly analyze the Quran as a Muslim should is from a classical perspective. That's why those who commit terrorism are doing it outside of Islamic guidelines, they take the verses and traditions that they want to use and ignore what they don't. It's been happening for a while, first with the Kharijites and now with modern day terrorists.

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    Почётный участник Sgt. Cold's Avatar
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    The thing about the Koran is that Mohamed said that the verses that Mohamed wrote later take precedent over anything that he may have written earlier that it may contradict. Therefore it is easy to understand that all the so called peaceful verses have been replaced by the violent verses which were written later. The koran is not written in chronological order either, so you have to read Hadith and life of Mohamed to know which verses have been replaced. Very often Moslems do not know these things themselves and other times they do know, but they are intentionally lying to you about it in order to deceive you into thinking Islam is something it is not. This is called "Taqiyya" and it is the principle of lying to "Kafir" (That's a derogative term used by Moslems for anyone that is not a Moslem) Kafir according to Mohamed, can be lied to in order to spread Islam. So, can you imagine the possible implications that brings if you have a Moslem politician in your town!

    So, getting back to 'violent verses"....these verses were written LAST ...not first! These are the verses which apply to Moslems today, and this is why terrorists can be found that will blow our brothers and sisters up at the airport.

    Mohamed died before he wrote anything that would replace his system of using "terror" and "war". And even worse that that, Mohamed said that he was to be the LAST prophet! So there can be no change made to his doctrine of war, in Islam. In time of crisis, even a so called moderate Moslem will have to support his terrorist colleagues.
    Up until the 60s and 70s, all this was generally understood by most people. Sir Winston Churchill wrote, "Islam is to a man as Rabies is to a dog." There are people in Austria and England and Holland, right now, who have said less that that, who are now on trial or imprisoned. That is how dumbed down we have become.
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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cold View Post
    In time of crisis, even a so called moderate Moslem will have to support his terrorist colleagues.
    Please get me right, it's not that I support the terrorism, but just to be on a fair side... The terrorism is not a religious thing ("let's kill all the kafirs"), but a military tactics. As such, it is usually a "privilege" of the elite units and those who perform the terrorist acts the special operations have always been and still are regarded as heroes in their armies because those operations are very high-risk to the operatives. In general, most of the terrorist acts are committed in order to destroy the infrastructure and instill fear in order to disrupt the functioning of the enemy state. So, strictly speaking, there can never be a "war on [Islamic] terrorism" (i.e. the war with the operatives), but a war on those who design and supply the operations (i.e. the "terrorist organizations") or a war on those who practically BENEFIT from those operations in such a way that they have a very strong incentive to go on spend their resources and still benefit. I'm not sure a euphoric and dancing Palestinian mob on the September 11th would meet that criteria. It should be someone else. In my opinion, the real "war on the terror" should have been primarily financial, military to a lesser degree, and not at all ideological/religious. Perhaps, I'm just not that close to the financial world and that's why I don't know, but I've never heard of any kind of the financial war with the terrorist organizations. No money - no organization - no terrorist acts. These days all financial transactions could be tracked down relatively reliably. So, if it is rather apparent, why it is not being done on a large scale? Another question - why is that nobody claimed the responsibility for the airport bombing? Why nobody claimed the responsibility for the 9/11 attack? Put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist leader who had just made his f***** dream a reality. Wouldn't you be boasting? Why would you leave Russia the liberty of figuring out who is responsible? Why would you leave the US itself the liberty of figuring out who is responsible?

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    Почётный участник Sgt. Cold's Avatar
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    This is the latest on the investigation. It seems that there were unheeded warnings.
    Moscow airport bomb: suicide bombers were part of squad trained in Pakistan - Telegraph
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