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About LinkBacksI don't care where it's from. The article is found on other sites and it's to demonstrate how much pressure (and PROPAGANDA) the Ukrainians are getting to choose the EU.Originally Posted by Hanna
I don't care where it's from. The article is found on other sites and it's to demonstrate how much pressure (and PROPAGANDA) the Ukrainians are getting to choose the EU.
Об украинцах я бы не волновался. Чем бы дело не закончилось, Украина будет в выигрыше. Не на тех напали!
"Проиграл ли, выиграл ли Карлсон, он всегда сияет, как начищенный пятак"
"Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."
These Ukrainians are, sadly, uninformed. Perhaps, they need to figure things out, maybe watch some youtube videos of 'EUSSR' and ask some Britons what they think of the EU. At last check, many want to leave. They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave.
Norway is not part of the EU and they are not struggling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBCaB_mRFg
The Orange Revolution was a farce and so will this be.
По моим ощущениям на Украине в ЕС хотят подонки-нацисты и идиоты-лирики. Украина долго играла с Россией в игру под названием "дайте низкие цены на газ и откройте свой рынок для наших металлургов, так как мы с вами братья-славяне". Путин, будучи идиотом, конечно поддавался на эту уловку, и выполнял их условия. Янукович думал, что и сейчас этот приём сработает, но Путин дал понять, что он перестанет поддерживать экономику Украины, если Украина попытается сидеть на двух стульях.
Лично я может и хотел бы посмотреть на крушение иллюзий украинцев по поводу ЕС, но продвижения НАТО на восток не хотел бы. Россию никто экономически не поддерживал извне, как мы Украину и Белоруссию. Поэтому мы избавились от иллюзий по отношению к Западу. А украинцы (особенно западные) ещё мечтают. Первая их мечта: вечно сидеть на нашей газовой трубе. Вторая мечта: получить с Запада дешёвые товары. Вообще, надо учитывать менталитет украинцев. Для этого достаточно почитать Гоголя (например, "Вечера на хуторе близ Деканьки"). Их национальный приоритет - это дешёвое сало, горилка, возможность с важным видом называть себя панами. Насчёт горилки я слышал, что на Украине разрешено самогоноварение (самодельное изготовление водки). Насчёт сала - это газовая труба и ЕС. Насчёт панов - это нежелание дружить с Россией (так как друзья равны, а панство равенства не подразумевает).
По-моему, такое называлось великодержавным шовинизмом.
Так им и предлагают открыть границу для товаров из ЕС (а не членство в ЕС). По этой причине Россия и закроет границу с Украиной (чтобы товары из ЕС не хлынули к нам). Это Украина и называет давлением со стороны России.
Шовинизм у меня или у Гоголя?
As a Cypriot my simple advice to Ukraine is: Stay away from European Union.
Just form a Trade Union with EU where products, services, labor and capital will move freely.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.
As a Scandinavian you know perfectly well that they won jackpot in the oil lottery, and if it wasn't for that, they'd be begging to join the EU. Their only other natural resource is fish, and that's where their previous expertise laid. When the oil runs out, they will join the EU or whatever has replaced it.
That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.ask some Britons what they think of the EU. At last check, many want to leave. They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave.
The UK is used to running things, but is only the 3rd biggest country/economy in the EU, and has to compromise and work with French, Germans and others as equal. Having to compromise with Germans and others is just a bit of a blow to national self esteem.
Another reason is that Britain uses different measurements, drives on the other side of the road, has different electronic plugs and some other aspects that don't gel well with the EU - and that the EU has tried to change, to the fury of many here. Again it's minor stuff. Educated people in the UK know that regardless of their feelings about it, it's not feasible to leave the EU at this point and nobody has any illusions that it will happen any time soon. Hell will freeze over before there is a refendum - or they will announce a referendum when they are already certain what the outcome will be.
The situation with Cyprus may be different - I'm not up to scratch, likewise a few countries in Eastern Europe who got a more favourable assesment than they perhaps should have, for political/ideological reasons. And a few countries in Southern Europe who cooked the books together with Goldman Sachs, to qualify for the Euro, when really they did not meet the requirements.
As for Ukraine: If it completely turned its back on Russia (and sorted out a few other things) I am sure things would be back on track. I visited both Ukraine and Romania in 2011 and my impression was that Ukraine was in a better shape economically than Romania which qualified for the EU. Unlike Turkey, Ukraine is fully located in Europe and has a Christian heritage (some EU countries are against Turkey for these two reasons). Ukraine's human rights may not be world class but it's probably better than Turkey and no worse than Romania.
If not a full membership, then certainly free trade and a customs union in a longer perspective.
Latvia is another example of an ex USSR country that qualified and completely turned its back on Russia.
Perhaps a fraction better off than Ukraine, from the point of view of a visitor, but not much.
Social benefits in Latvia consists of a sack of oatmeal for food and a couple of hundred dollars to cover rent according to a man I spoke with. He was a perfectly competent techie, but unable to get a job and support himself were he lived.
I would be extremely surprised, if Latvia's factories are EU standard. Parts of the country is literally falling to pieces because they haven't done maintenance in 25 years. It was quite shocking to see. People living in absolute squalor next to a site where the EU is spending big bucks on renovating some old fortress that few would care about and that can surely wait a few more years.
If Ukraine REALLY wanted to, it could become a partner, or a member - I think.
Whether it would help the economy is another story. Like Antonio said - it was a recipe for disaster, for some, and it leaves the door open for exploitation as people in Romania are saying.
Plus, it would be at the expense of relations with Russia.
I don't care either way; I just want the people in Ukraine to have more hope for a good future. I think they need to choose East or West and the sooner they do it, the better.
LOL! Norway would be begging while several countries in the EU are near bankruptcy and would be already under if not for being enslaved by IMF loans/bankers?!? Please...
'That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.'
LOL! That's ridiculous. They know the EU is a sham and they see what happens with other countries which become slaves to the EU system. Check EUSSR videos and notice how the overwhelming pattern is that those in charge are not elected but appointed. The freedoms are reduced or eliminated and 'free trade?' LOL! Tell that to every country not named Germany.
(Deleted. L.)
Last edited by Lampada; November 27th, 2013 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Переход на личности против правил форума
A couple of pictures to the topic:
Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!
I think those pictures says it all.
Maybe another picture is needed, in which Ukraine can't unite on this, splits up and each side joins the group they prefer. Tragic, but it's happened to countries before.
And perhaps another picture, where Ukraine finds some new friends altogether!?
I think the truth of the matter is that you have to be part of an economic block these days, and have some solid allies. Wish it weren't so, but it is. Particularly for a "new" country like Ukraine.
What about Belarus?
We know that the EU absolutely HATES Lukashenko and is convinced that Belarus is completely undemocratic (I don't think that's necessarily true; there are different types of freedom - anyway it's the Belarussians problem, not the EUs.)
But Belarus is also not on the best of terms with Russia - so maybe Ukraine can also look at how to work closer with Belarus? Not exactly a substitute for the EU or Russia, but at least a "friendly neighbour".
Kazakhstan, Turkey, Iran are not too far away and not closely aligned to either bloc and might also be open for co-operation.
Not sure what Ukraine has to offer but no doubt, something.
(just thinking, if there is a third way for Ukraine, since the Russia-Ukraine-EU unhappy triangle drama has been going on for a decade now.
По-моему, карикатуры говорят не всё. На Украине официальная пропаганда говорит следующее: "мы всей душой хотим в ЕС, а Россия грубо не пускает нас туда, используя экономические рычаги". На картинках украинец не знает, что выбрать, а в реальности голова украинца уже в ЕС, а грубая реальность не пускает его туда.
Получается шизофрения: мечты расходятся с реальностью. И эту шизофрению поддерживает официальная пропаганда Украины.
Кажется Стросс Кан сказал, что "глобализация - это война". Когда-то немцы начинали войну ради того, чтобы другие европейцы работали за копейки на их заводах. Теперь глобализация позволяет достигать тот же эффект без войны. Треть населения Литвы уехало из страны ради поиска работы. То же ждёт и Украину.
Now Germany is to blame for the poor wages in other countries?? You mean that one country with the hard-working, efficient and savings-orientated people and a very disciplined fiscal policy?
please always correct my (often poor) russian
You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.
Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.
please always correct my (often poor) russian
The "expert" has spoken.
Like I said, I spent quite a while there, and reported a bit about it here at MR. (before the trolling started properly, and you could still have a interesting exchanges on this site)
The bigger cities in Belarus are renovated, clean, free of graffiti and very few ads.
Belarus is in a better state of repair/renovation than Ukraine.
It's true that their salaries are lower, but everything you need there, for everyday life, is subsidised. They are not paying market prices for a lot of things. The rents are extremely low, public transport is next to free, their jobs pay for room and board during their holidays etc, Healthcare, university etc free. So for everyday expenses they need less money. And everybody has a job, essentially.
I don't think the salaries there are lower than in places like Romania or Latvia. I'm pretty sure they are better off than Romanians and a lot of people in Ukraine. However, I think retired people on state pensions can just about make it through the month. That's not unique for Belarus though, and I understand that the older generation supports Lukashenko almost universally, regardless.
The problem kicks in if they want a new car, a lot of petrol, expensive electronic gadgets, designer clothes or a foreign holiday. Imported "luxury" stuff. I think there's also a housing shortage, not massive, but affecting young people.
I asked lots of people there what they thought about the current gov't because I was genuinely interested. About 70% were ok with it. Although they had some criticism they felt "better-the-devil-you-know" about Lukashenko. About 30% really hated Lukashenko, out of the people I spoke with. Those were younger people, in Minsk, essentially. One woman I spoke quite a lot with, in Minsk, said that she thought that Lukashenko was mentally ill, lol. However, she was upper middle class or whatever, in Belarus, and from what I could tell, her lifestyle was similar to my own, apart from she was annoyed that she couldn't afford chic holidays abroad. I respect everyone's view who lives ther and what goes on in Belarus is not my business who runs Belarus. But it p-sses me off that there are so many blatant lies about this country in European media.
That kind of problem has been created artificially by their government, which I've been telling you several times now, but with no luck getting it through your pink colored glasses. The problem is that cars, "expensive electronic gadgets", designer clothes cost way more there than those in EU or in the U.S.! That's all because of the insane custom fees, tax rates for those resellers that sell them etc. Did you know that you cannot buy a car in that country for less than $5,000? (I mean a car that rides, of course) No matter how old it is, because the older a car is, the bigger custom fees they apply for it. Then, an iPad Air that you can buy for just $929 in the U.S. (128 GB, Wi-Fi + LTE) will cost you over $1,500 in that country!!! That's insane, especially considering how their salaries compare with the ones in the U.S.! A pair of Lewis jeans that you can get for $50-100 at any shopping mall in NY, will be priced at several hundred bucks in that country! Again, what a rich prosperous nation it must be to afford things at such prices... No wonder lots of people there hate that system and count days till its collapse.
Yes, because NOBODY can be TRULY happy and fulfilled in life until they have a pair of Levis, an iPad Air, purchased for the equivalent US retail price!
Get that wrong and you are doomed to eternal misery....Thanks for clarifying that, "Eric".
Alles klar!
And as for your info on Belarus; the last time this topic came up, you claimed that Belarussians were not allowed to leave the country, until somebody corrected you. So it's nice that you have read up a bit.
If you want to convince anyone with your iPad example, please post links to a Belarussian, Russian, German and American vendor selling iPad Airs. We are all aware that electronics and clothes are more expensive in Europe for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons and there is nothing sinister about that.
iPad Air - Buy iPad Air with Free Shipping - Apple Store (U.S.) <--- The U.S. Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs $929)
iPad <--- The German Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs 869 Euros, or around $1173)
iPad Air – Купите iPad Air с бесплатной доставкой - Apple Store ( <--- The Russian Apple Stores' offer (you'll have to do some math there, the top one costs 36,990 Russian rubles, that will be around $1121)
Yes, in Russia you can get it for a lower price than in Germany, but I wasn't talking about Russia, was I? =))
Now, the most interesting part. There are no official Apple Stores in Belarus at all!!! What I've been able to find is some kind of "premium reseller store", but it's doubtful it even has that status. Anyway, here's the webpage:
iPad Air купить в Минске i-Store
Don't get shocked with what you see at the first glance, because their currency rates can actually shock anyone! So, that nice price tag of "12,299,000" in their local currency becomes $1317, by their current rates. More expensive than that in Russia, more expensive than that in Germany. Yes, my information about the $1,500 price was a bit outdated, but you've got the idea. =))
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