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Yes, you are right, Ramil, we are somewhere in the middle when it comes to collectivism and individualism. We are nowehere near the Japanese in terms of collectivism, it would seem, but not individualistic enough either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
The East-West / Individualism-collectivism argument is interesting.
Well I think the Russian people here are fairly individualistic...???
But maybe you are not representative of Russians in general?
Also, Russian people I have met in the UK and Sweden have definitely been individualistic and independent. But then, they were people who moved abroad etc. Again, maybe not representative.
I guess things were a bit more "collectivist" during the Soviet era? Is that what you are referring to? But you kicked out that system, lol!! Probably partly because many people thought it was too regimented?
Actually thinking about it, I don't come from a massively individualistic country either... People tend to prefer consensus and not sticking out TOO much (just a little bit).
People of certain nationalities (none mentioned) can seem "too much" and "in your face" to us... Agree about Asians, they are too collectivistic for my taste.
Yes, and that makes us non-Asians, but we're not individualistic enough and that makes us non-Europeans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Of course, that's why they've left.Quote:
Also, Russian people I have met in the UK and Sweden have definitely been individualistic and independent. But then, they were people who moved abroad etc. Again, maybe not representative.
They were. But some things remain even now. Untill all of us, born in the USSR die out. :DQuote:
I guess things were a bit more "collectivist" during the Soviet era?
I'm not saying that we're collectivists to the bone, but still we were brought up in the times when people were throwing around 'we' pronoun for too often.
Not that system. To clarify a bit - maybe not all ex-Soviets will share my thought but the thing people were kicking out was the CPSU, not the USSR in general. People just didn't anticipate that once the CPSU domination had ended USSR would collapse as well. Nobody objected to the ideology it was the methods it was pushed in our heads with that angried people and also the corruption.Quote:
Is that what you are referring to? But you kicked out that system, lol!! Probably partly because many people thought it was too regimented?
I'm not talking about consensus, I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way. As a 9 y.o. kid I was required to take an oath that I would always put the interests of the socium above my personal interests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Pro ... g_PioneersQuote:
Actually thinking about it, I don't come from a massively individualistic country either... People tend to prefer consensus and not sticking out TOO much (just a little bit).
I agree, it was a part of culture, and kids were raised to respect or even to bend to the wishes of the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
"Я" is the last letter of the alphabet" ("Я" - последняя буква в алфавите) was a common saying, used to berated young (or not so young) children for being too focused on their own persona. :)
A person who insisted on his own desires that went against the wishes of people who surrounded him was not percieved in a positive light (individualistic, initiative, etc.), he was considered stuck up and selfish.
One notable difference between the US and Russia "наша." You usually don't "our" in the US, it's all 3rd person, "the American team won, American troops were killed, etc." It's interesting that at least part of "наша" stems from indoctrination and training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I was always fascinated with European culture, I grew up with Alexandre Dumas', Conan Doyle's, Walter Scott's, Robert Stevenson's and Jules Verne's novels and I think that Russian culture without doubts has European origin, but of course it has it's own unique features due to geographic, religion and ethnic profiles. Asian culture is great, but I always feel like it's kind of alien and exotic for me. Also as far as I know all my ancestors were of Slavic origin (mostly ethnic Russians), who lived in European part of Russian Empire (particulary in Nizhny Novgorod, Vyatka, Vladimir and Ryazan provinces). The only exception I know of, well, may be one of them was French. There is some kind of legend in my family (my father's line) that the founder of the family was a Napoleonic soldier, who was captured by Russians in 1812, and later adopted Orthodoxy, married a Russian girl and changed his surname Savigny to СавИнов. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
But aside from my humble person, I wonder if we compare percentage of people who belongs to European race in such without doubts European cities as Paris or London and in Russian cities located in Asian continent such as Novosibirsk or Krasnoyarsk? I guess they (the Siberian cities) wouldn't look more Asian from this point.
Well, considering the above, my answer is mostly a) and maybe a little d) (at least that's the way I feel like).
It's an interesting thought.. Though I don't think that this is the best explanation. "Наша страна" and similar expressions have more to do with traditions and language than some kind of deliberate training.Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
There's one more "мы" vs. "я" example in Russian, you must have been seen: "Мы с Петей пошли в кино" (Petya and I went to the cinema). "Я и Петя пошли в кино" is also possible, but "мы" sounds more natural. Again, it's not the result of some training or forcing people to use "мы" instead of "я". It's a part of culture, Russians have been talking this way for centuries, they got used to this, so "мы" does sound better style-wise in this case.
It's an interesting point, indeed... "У меня в доме", "у меня в подъезде", "у меня на этаже" do sound a bit off... Well, the house is not only mine, after all; it's a big block of flats. But I noticed that I really prefer to use "мы" instead of "я" in many cases, even if it's really only "я".
I think it's a part of the language, first of all; gRomoZeka is absolutely right.
And still, I must admit that I am very, very individualistic, and, I hope, independent, too. :oops:
To me, one of the main distinctive features of Russian people is indiscipline. I'd even say that's our Russian form of independence. I don't mean that a Russian can't discipline himself, although it's open to question, too. I mean he can't be disciplined by someone else (and that's the thing I can definitely say about myself). You can't make bus drivers open the front door if they don't want to. You can't make clerical people and shop assistants smile and be polite if they don't feel to smile and to be nice with this particular person. You can't make a man go to work if he wants to go on a drinking bout. You have no power over souls and wishes of Russian people.
The European independence is reasonable and rational; the Russian one is turbulent and has no limits.
Probably I sound too apocalyptical, but that's how I really see it. :)
Nothing in this world happens without a reason. And if this phenomenon has become part of the language then there is a reason for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Good for you, but this is different. We (again 'we') still try to find some common features, traits, etc in people that surrounds us. We can judge for the whole country or haven't you noticed?Quote:
And still, I must admit that I am very, very individualistic, and, I hope, independent, too. :oops:
Well, I don't think we have the monopoly for that. Quite the opposite - Asians are very disciplined because the lack of discipline (something that is common to a large group of people) is a sign of individual approach. We're more Europeans in this regard.Quote:
To me, one of the main distinctive features of Russian people is indiscipline.
... бессмысленная и беспощадная. :DQuote:
The European independence is reasonable and rational; the Russian one is turbulent and has no limits.
(не удержался).
Ну в таком случае мы еще более "индивидуалистичны", чем европейцы. Потому что я не думаю, что в Европе есть какие-то трудности с объяснением людям их обязанностей и их выполнением. С этой точки зрения европейцы как раз очень дисциплинированы. Оговорюсь - если судить по тому, что я о них знаю и слышала, потому что в Европе я не была, в магазины там не заходила, на автобусах не каталась. :) Но говорят, что персонал там везде вежливый, клиентам улыбается. Это ведь тоже дисциплина. Им просто один раз объяснили, вот и всё. А русский человек, извиняюсь... кладет на то, что ему указывают и объясняют. Он по форме-то сделает, а вот душу вложит только если сам решит, что это нужно, и решать будет только он сам в каждом конкретном случае. А для русского человека улыбнуться - это тоже значит душу вложить. Не может он просто так, просто потому что надо. Даже за деньги не может. Когда его не контролируют, не стоят над душой и не стучат по голове, он будет таким, каким ему удобно быть. И ничего ты с ним не поделаешь.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Well, yes, mentality affects the language, and language affects the mentality. It's like a chicken or the egg paradox.Quote:
if this phenomenon has become part of the language then there is a reason for it.
In other words, grammar constructions we use without thinking reflect the history of the nation,and they still influence us on some level. For example, Russian language is famous for its lack of 'initiative' in grammar. :)
e.g. "Мне холодно"~"Something is making me cold" vs "Я замерз"~"I'm feeling cold" (the latter is quite fine, but the former is used more often)
or "У меня есть сестра"~"There's a sister by me" (?) vs. "I have a sister"="Я имею сестру" (the latter is unacceptable)
Some people draw all kinds of conclusions from that (a fatalistic outlook, passive nature, etc.). You can decide for yourself if it means anything. ;)
Сфера обслуживания - да, да и то... раз на раз не приходится. Если брать Германию, то там да - alles in Ordnung, но это Германия и это, быть может, единственная страна в Европе, где так (может быть ещё Скандинавия, хотя я там не был). А взять, к примеру, Францию или Италию - то там нахамить могут на раз, и вообще отношение весьма пофигическое. Да и работать из-под палки тоже могут не только россияне. По большей части все так и работают. Шевеление начинается только, когда пахнет деньгами. Это уже из моего опыта работы со шейцарскими коллегами.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Да, роботизированный персонал. Должностные инструкции разрабатываются для дебилов (т.е. дебил вполне сможет работать по такой инструкции). Между прочим, такая практика активно внедряется и у нас в стране. От человека не требуется вообще никакой инициативы: "Лопата - Копать - Здесь - Кидать - Туда - До 6 вечера."Quote:
Им просто один раз объяснили, вот и всё.
Ага, а европейцы душу вкладывают. Как же, жди! Они вообще только по форме и могут делать. Разница в том, что у европейцев форма индивидуальная, а у азиатов - для целого коллектива.Quote:
А русский человек, извиняюсь... кладет на то, что ему указывают и объясняют. Он по форме-то сделает, а вот душу вложит только если сам решит, что это нужно, и решать будет только он сам в каждом конкретном случае.
Ещё как может. Ты в какой-нибудь дорогой магазин зайди - улыбнутся, поднесут, унесут, кофе/чай, иногда шампанское. В общем-то разницы никакой, за деньги - улыбнётся, а за твои 300 рэ. - пошлёт куда подальше. Между прочим, обслуживание по ценовой категории, скажем, "выше среднего" в Европе зачастую гораздо хуже, чем у нас. У нас, конечно, цены бешенные, но зато клиента буквально "облизывают" со всех сторон.Quote:
А для русского человека улыбнуться - это тоже значит душу вложить. Не может он просто так, просто потому что надо. Даже за деньги не может.
Это любой человек в любом уголке земного шара. И европеец, и американец, и азиат, и африканец. И, мне кажется, даже пингвин в Антарктиде.Quote:
Когда его не контролируют, не стоят над душой и не стучат по голове, он будет таким, каким ему удобно быть. И ничего ты с ним не поделаешь.
Uh-huh. And mentality is formed by life conditions. And life in Russia is hard because it's cold, I suppose. Lack of sunlight is notorious for making people depressed and gloomy --> problems with alcohol... I've heard of a lot of people who went to extreme North, like Norilsk, and became really mentally ill there and committed suicide. Thankfully, we have a lot of sunshine here in Novosib... A climate that is too hot doesn't seem to be conducive to progress, either, though. It's interesting that Northern European countries, like Sweden adopted socialism, isn't it? So Russia and Sweden must really have something in common, when it comes to national character, Johanna! :friends:Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
And it's very interesting indeed, about the language. How are you supposed to adequately translate "наши" into English? As in ecstatic exclamations, like "Наши победили!" or something of that sort? Part of meaning will be lost...
Да, только им еще платят по-человечески. А у нас некоторые работодатели требуют по-европейски, а платят... Если бы мне платили $1000 как нормальному европейскому продавцу, а не 7000 рэ, то я, так и быть, подумала бы о том, чтобы получше эти требования соблюдать. :roll: Это не значит, что я буду хамить покупателям, а просто именно так -- улыбаться, если покупатель тоже вежлив и не очень-то держаться за это место. А так я эти 7000 зарабатываю с гораздо меньшими усилиями, сидя дома и занимаясь переводами. Тепло, светло и мухи не кусают. :-) Все-таки работа по специальности и есть перспективы...Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Ну и в ментальности дело тоже, конечно. Наверно, русский человек привык, чтобы ему сильно на мозги не капали. У нас тут недавно скандал был -- в местную школу пришла новая директриса, вся такая требовательная -- у нас в универе она 4 года преподавала французский, так что я её знаю. Начала наводить в школе "порядки", заставлять учителей делать какие-то вещи, которых раньше не было или на которые смотрели сквозь пальцы. Чтоб всё по букве закона, по бумажке. Они, как люди другой закалки взбунтовались, естес-но.
С другой стороны, немцы перед второй мировой тоже старательно изучали русский характер -- читали "Обломова", диссертации защищали... Типа, ленив русский. Ха-ха. Лучше бы про 1812 читали.
Может быть потому, что европейские богатеи не приравнивают холуйство персонала к качеству обслуживания?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Приравнивают, даже более требовательны в этом плане, чем наши нувориши, которые во многом ещё не избавились от советского стереотипа обслуживания. Потом, они там именно для того, чтобы холуйствовать, это часть "добавленной стоимости" товаров, выставляемых в подобных торговых точках.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Вот именно, что у нас "смех без причины -- признак дурачины." Американцы пущай улыбаются своими дежурными улыбками, если им надо... А так, какой в этом смысл? Мне всегда казалось, что доброжелательного тона голоса, который показывает, что я хочу помочь человеку и сделаю "всё от меня зависящее", вполне достаточно. Потом, среди покупателей тоже каждый день есть хоть одна такая заноза и неадекват, что на весь день может настроение испортить. С такими уж извините -- нас как бы учили, что в нашей стране все равны и никто его "вылизывать" не будет ни за какие деньги. Терпеть и молчать в тряпочку приходилось, это да.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
It's interesting to see how harshly many of you judge your own country/people. I have read that Putin is trying to improve national self esteem.
Compare your harsh view of your own country with the Chinese! Or the Americans and their positive view of their country and themselves, despite many, many faults and wrongdoings. Ask a French person for example what's wrong with America vs Russia. I think you'd be surprised how favourably you'd come out!
In Scandinavia, the view of Russians is:
-Lots of people are serious intellectuals and very smart.
-Lots of people are heavy drinkers of alcohol (same as us but booze is cheaper and easier to buy.)
-"Intensive" people, passionate and with a temper. "Arctic Italians"
-Guys are quite macho and girls quite feminine compared with us.
-Lots of "urban myths" about extreme stuff: - Have you heard that in Russia..... [something extreme]
Personally I wouldn't have said "collectivistic" and I can't remember having heard anything about that.
I am aware of the socialist principle of putting society's needs before ones own. But it doesn't seem like people in Russia are doing that at the moment. Haha Ramil, listen to the "pioneer" inside you! Do a good deed!
It must be doing very strange things with a nations "soul" to go from viewing itself as the spearbearer of a righteous ideology, to "the bad guy" of the 20th century (essentially the US view). First trying to turn people into collectivist solidarity minded communists, and then suddenly being hit by the nastiest sort of capitalism (oligarchs and gangsters), denouncing the past and tearing down what socialism created.
If Russia was a person, it might be suffering from "post traumatic shock" and maybe schizophrenia!"
I see LOTS of parallels between Russia and the Britain where I live right now. I mean the loss of an "empire" if you don't mind the word.... Followed by the need to "reinvent" itself in a new incarnation, which takes some time.
Example:
Britons can be SO hard on themselves when they speak about the country, the climate, language skills, the stupidity of many Brits and the imperial past. It seems that there is no national pride at all. "Multiculturalism" is a big theme and the culture of the large immigrant groups is treated with almost as much respect as British culture. Being pro-British is seen as almost the same as being racist.
But suddenly Brits can change 360 degrees and start implying that in fact, they brought "civilisation" to the colonies, built most of their current infrastructure, hospitals etc. Not to mention their view that they saved Europe from Nazism and suffered tremendously during the war etc.
Then there is the situation whereby people in the ex-colonies idealise Britain and even its past rule enormously. Millions try to get to Britain to live there... Despite the fact that Britain was a colonial imperialistic exploiter and seriously discriminated against them! (I don't think that can be said about the USSR).
After the loss of the empire Britain went through hard economic times for two decades, and allied itself really closely with the US and its "ideology".
Am I right to think that most people in Russia aren't terribly interested in a Western style democracy...? I get the feeling people are more interested in law and order plus increased living standards, and that they aren't convinced anymore, that democracy is the best way to achieve that.
If so that would be a BIG difference with Europe, since all countries in the EU believe that democracy is the only good form of government. (BTW, the EU is not democratic at all, it's largely an illusion. But that's a different story)
The "positive" aspect was that "we" implied less individual responsibility... :hlop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Having said that, I'm somewhat curious about that notorious "individualistic" European culture. I'd like to dispute that. It's true that the language is full of I's and the sayings such as "think for yourself", "you want the best for yourself", and so on. However, all I can hear around is the choir singing slogans praising "team work", "approach as a team", "solve as a team", "give back to the community", etc. The Team seems to be a holy cow. If you're not a "team-payer" you won't get a job. :roll:
I think the difference between Russian and European culture has vastly been stretched out. Russian traits are much more European than Japanese. No one in Russia would even slightly entertain the idea of cutting off their limbs out of shame. :instruct:
Yes, but we reserve the right to do so only for ourselves. Foreigners are not allowed to be hash on our 'beloved Russia' :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
That's the point. In our childhood everyone was talking about that but when we'd finally grown up everything turned upside down. This was the reason of 'inner conflict' in many Russians (especially of older age). The young adapted faster. The ideas that had been planted into your head in your earliest childhood haunt you from time to time.Quote:
I am aware of the socialist principle of putting society's needs before ones own. But it doesn't seem like people in Russia are doing that at the moment. Haha Ramil, listen to the "pioneer" inside you! Do a good deed!
Well said. Schizophrenia it is! :DQuote:
If Russia was a person, it might be suffering from "post traumatic shock" and maybe schizophrenia!"
Yep, but Britain got 'lucky' and has lost the 'superpower' title during the WW2. It didn't happen overnight and nobody had noticed the change right at first.Quote:
I see LOTS of parallels between Russia and the Britain where I live right now. I mean the loss of an "empire" if you don't mind the word.... Followed by the need to "reinvent" itself in a new incarnation, which takes some time.
:) Perhaps you wanted to say 180 degrees... :roll:Quote:
But suddenly Brits can change 360 degrees...
It's hard to say for all. Judging by the people I know personally, the answer is yes. But there is a strong brain-washing about 'democratic values', etc and I really don't know. Most probably, there are very few has left who does care about political organization of our country. There has always been someone higher up who decided everything (during more than 1000 years of Russian history it has always been so, by the way). Who cares? Monarchy, oligarchy, socialism, democracy - there have always been those in power and common folks. Nothing really changes in Russia in this field.Quote:
Am I right to think that most people in Russia aren't terribly interested in a Western style democracy...?
I think that whoever gives all this to people would have universal popularity, even if this peson is a cannibal with sadistic instincts.Quote:
I get the feeling people are more interested in law and order plus increased living standards, and that they aren't convinced anymore, that democracy is the best way to achieve that.
Yes, but europeans are biased. They've been told that there are no good alternatives. And they keep hearing this even now.Quote:
If so that would be a BIG difference with Europe, since all countries in the EU believe that democracy is the only good form of government. (BTW, the EU is not democratic at all, it's largely an illusion. But that's a different story)
To change something, as Lenin wrote, one need a revolutionary situation in the country. Content people don't revolt. So if I keep my population well fed (as it is the case with Europeans) I can do anything I want. I can even give these people the illusion of choice (and by doing so I will transfer the responsibility for my actions to them - after all, it was them who 'elected' me).
This too. It's a part of the overal scheme. That's why I don't like democracy. There's always noone to blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
But they remain just that - slogans. Nobody really cares if your teammate suddenly gets fired. :DQuote:
Having said that, I'm somewhat curious about that notorious "individualistic" European culture. I'd like to dispute that. It's true that the language is full of I's and the sayings such as "think for yourself", "you want the best for yourself", and so on. However, all I can hear around is the choir singing slogans praising "team work", "approach as a team", "solve as a team", "give back to the community", etc. The Team seems to be a holy cow. If you're not a "team-payer" you won't get a job. :roll:
From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.Quote:
I think the difference between Russian and European culture has vastly been stretched out. Russian traits are much more European than Japanese. No one in Russia would even slightly entertain the idea of cutting off their limbs out of shame. :instruct:
I'm not trying to say that Russia is typically asian, I only try to say that it's more Asian than France, for example. And from the other hand it's more European than Turkey (or Georgia for that matter). The correct term will be 'Eurasian'. This word reflects the real position of Russia among the world's cultures.
We're not Asians by all means, but we're not Europeans either.