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Ukraine Elections 2010 + various political off-topics
Apparently the Ukraine is Europe's second biggest country, after Russia.. :unknown: (!)
-- what about Germany? I thought that was bigger... Maybe not.
But with this in mind, the Ukranian elections are important for everyone in Europe! I follow a Finnish/Swedish blog about the Russian-speaking world (kniivila.net). Here is what it says (sorry, it is a bit blunt/rude, but it is a blog, not a paper...)
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Gas queen Julia Tymosjenko or ex youth criminal Viktor Janukovytj? Does it matter in light of the fact that the country is close to national bankrupcy? On Sunday disappointed Ukrainians will be voting in the first election after the "orange revolution".
Youth criminal? And what in particular are people disappointed about?
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Both candidates' mother tongue is Russian, but they speak only Ukrainian in official functions (...)
Huh? Why does this matter if everyone speaks both languages?
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Viktor Janukovytj has promised to organise a referendum about giving Russian official status. He has also hinted that Ukraine might acknowledge the Georgian breakaway republics Abchazia och South Ossetia.
Good.
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...neither of the candidates have been bringing up any crucial questions, or matters of principles, therefore it does not matter much who wins, says political journalist Vitalij Portnikov: (...) Whichever candidate wins it is likely that the other does whatever he/she can to plot against the president. We will have the same chaos as before, just without Jusjtjenko.
The other option is that Tymosjenko and Janukovytj make peace after the election and lead together with one as prime minister and the other as president. But that too would mean no change.
In contrast with Russia and Belarus, Ukraina has real elections where the outcome is not known beforehand.[!?!] None of the eighteen candidates are expected to get a majority on Sunday. There will be a second vote on 21 February to determine which one of the two leaders from Sunday's election is the winner.
Ex treasury manager, bank owner and manager of "Swedbank", Serhij Tihipko's support has been below ten percent, however last week the offical Russian opinion poll institute VTsIOM published a survey that surprisingly put Tihipko ahead of Julia Tymosjenko.
However most Ukrainian observers are sceptical about his possibilties of knocking Julia Tymosjenko out of her seat and getting to the second round of voting. It has been suggested that the Russian figures were a veiled attempt to affect the outcome of the election.
Participation is expected to be over 70%
Respect at the high level of participation! In the UK it's more like 60% I think! Just as a comparison.
If you are Ukrainian, are you going to vote?
Do you agree with this representation of politics in Ukraine or is it exaggerating the negative sides?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Johanna
Apparently the Ukraine is Europe's second biggest country, after Russia.. (!)
Nope. It is the third biggest in territory European country. Guess three times which country is the second?
Spoiler: Denmark.
And why?
Spoiler: It owns Greenland.
*)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
If you are Ukrainian, are you going to vote?
I am not going to vote. Ukrainian politics is crazy and I do not see the effective way it can be improved.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
I totally understand Iti-ogo... It looks a bit dark...
But you know, you should vote... Either that, or start plotting a revolution....!
:flazhok: :mosking:
Another important thing about Ukraine is where it's going to direct itself in the future: East towards Russia in some kind of union... or West, to join the EU..... Or is both possible?
Right now Ukraine seems a bit "lonely" while facing some serious problem. Not a great situation....
It's such a big country that this stalemate can't last for long..
I am sure Ukraine would be an asset to the EU in the long run.... Personally I would absolutely support its inclusion if Ukrainians were interested. But on the other hand there are so many historical and cultural ties to Russia. Not to mention the language. So perhaps some kind of co-operation with Russia makes more sense.
I wonder what regular people in Ukraine prefer?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by it-ogo
And why?
Spoiler: It owns Greenland.
For now, probably, but I've heard they have plans for secession.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I totally understand Iti-ogo... It looks a bit dark...
But you know, you should vote... Either that, or start plotting a revolution....!
:flazhok: :mosking:
We tried both of these but the result is as usual. :sorry:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
First of all, why are the names spelled so strangely in this blog? :-o It should be Timoshenko and Yanukovich -- at least that's how they're written in Russian -- Тимошенко, Янукович.
I too was surprised recently after looking at the map and finding Ukraine bigger than Germany.
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It is the largest whole-Europe country and the second largest country in Europe (after the European part of Russia, before metropolitan France).[3]
(wiki)
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Originally Posted by Johanna
I am sure Ukraine would be an asset to the EU in the long run.... Personally I would absolutely support its inclusion if Ukrainians were interested. But on the other hand there are so many historical and cultural ties to Russia. Not to mention the language. So perhaps some kind of co-operation with Russia makes more sense.
I wonder what regular people in Ukraine prefer?
I wish Russia could join the EU and NATO so that all the idiocy and confrontation over Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO and so on would stop... :roll:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by starrysky
I wish Russia could join the EU
I was wondering the other day why isn't Russia in the EU? Is it like Turkey, they're not invited because some EU countries are for and some against? Or do they not want to join?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by sperk
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Originally Posted by starrysky
I wish Russia could join the EU
I was wondering the other day why isn't Russia in the EU?
1) Any country which is fully or partially located on the European continent can apply for membership. Ukraine, Russia, Caucasus and even Kazakhstan meet this criteria.
2) EU puts requirements on membership states. It requires a stable economy, reasonably solid democracy and full respect for human rights in member states. Member states must not be in conflict with any of its neighbours regarding the countrys' borders. All this must be fixed BEFORE the country can join.
3) Countries are represented based on the size of their population and a few other factors. But the representation of the smallest countries is inflated a bit to ensure that their interests are represented despite their small size.
Turkey does not fully meet the human rights criteria. Albania and several others do not meed the economical requirements. The countries on the Balkan have not fully resolved all of their border conflicts and war legacy issues.
The thing about Russia is that it is a country that is a continent... It is almost like the EU within its own borders. It would shift the power balance in the EU. Moscow would be the biggest city in the EU. Right now it's London or Paris. Germany, France, UK etc would be facing a member that is as big as all of them put together. Plus a few EU member states have a suspicious view of Russia right now. They might try to sabotage EU negotiations with Russia. Greece is doing that right now, for Macedonia.
I am pretty sure that the EU would have some reservations about democracy and human rights in Russia.
Another point is whether it would interest the population of Russia and the leadership to be in the EU? I don't know... Perhaps they'd rather remain fully independent. A country gives up some of its sovereignity when it joins.
If Russia was to join the EU in the future the EU would become a superpower unlike anything the world has ever seen. stretching from the Pacific to the Atlantic from the Arctic down to the Meditteranean.
IF EU expands further Eastwards, I think the Ukraine or Moldova are the first possible candidates. It's unlikely to happen in the near future though, but perhaps within ten years.
I think the EU and Russia ought to drop visa requirements and enter a customs union as a start.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Russia disputes borders with Japan, Georgia, Ukraine (though I might be wrong about this one), Lithuania and probably China. Technically we're still at war with Japan (since 1945) :D
There are many 'human rights' issues in Russia, but many of them are invented by human-rights activists to get grants for their continued doing nothing.
And finally, I don't think Russia will benefit from joining the EU. I see more drawbacks than benefits in this. I would be perfectly content with merely a treaty regarding simplified transit of people and merchandise across borders.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by sperk
Or do they not want to join?
71% россиян не считает себя европейцами. Только 20% считают, что Россия относится к европейской культуре.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/rus...00/6340165.stm
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by BappaBa
I think this survey is suspect, and I see that they have no commenting enabled. I bet, if they had, lots of people would comment and say that they felt European!
Remember, remember with surveys: Who paid for it and what are their interests/agenda, what are they trying to prove? You can prove "anything" with statistics, you just have to ask questions in a certain way, select the right statistics and present it in a certain way.
Perhaps they asked these people "What do you feel more like: Russian or European? People would then probably say "Russian" and you could say "A majority of those questioned "do not feel European!"
Who here is a Russian person that does NOT feel European? If so, what do you feel like? Asian? People who live on the European continent, are white and/or Christian are considered to be European by most other Europeans! I'd be a lot more sceptical towards Turkey as a European country than about Russia.
But the problem remains that Russia is "too big" in every sense of the word to fit very well in the EU. I think it only would work if the EU became a federation (which is quite possible). Then the Russian federation could join republic-by-republic.
Plus, Russia might think: We do not need the EU and are not interested in adapting to EU rules.. Switzerland and Norway have opted out - they do not want the EUs influence on their internal affairs, and they are rich enough to manage without.
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Originally Posted by BBC Survey
Approximately 65% of respondents were unable to explain what the phrase "liberal democracy" means.
They would get the same answer if they asked that anywhere in the EU! People know what a democracy is, but what is liberal democracy?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Александр Блок
СКИФЫ
Панмонголизм! Хоть имя дико,
Но нам ласкает слух оно...
Владимир Соловьев
.Мильоны — вас. Нас — тьмы, и тьмы, и тьмы.
. Попробуйте, сразитесь с нами!
.Да, Скифы — мы! Да, азиаты — мы, —
. С раскосыми и жадными очами!
.Для вас — века, для нас — единый час.
. Мы, как послушные холопы,
.Держали щит меж двух враждебных рас —
. Монголов и Европы!
.Века, века ваш старый горн ковал
. И заглушал грома лавины,
.И дикой сказкой был для вас провал
. И Лиссабона и Мессины!
.Вы сотни лет глядели на Восток,
. Копя и плавя наши перлы,
.И вы, глумясь, считали только срок,
. Когда наставить пушек жерла!
.Вот — срок настал. Крылами бьет беда,
. И каждый день обиды множит,
.И день придет — не будет и следа
. От ваших Пестумов, быть может!
.О, старый мир! Пока ты не погиб,
. Пока томишься мукой сладкой,
.Остановись, премудрый, как Эдип,
. Пред Сфинксом с древнею загадкой!..
.Россия — Сфинкс. Ликуя и скорбя,
. И обливаясь черной кровью,
.Она глядит, глядит, глядит в тебя,
. И с ненавистью, и с любовью!..
.Да, так любить, как любит наша кровь,
. Никто из вас давно не любит!
.Забыли вы, что в мире есть любовь,
. Которая и жжет, и губит!
.Мы любим все — и жар холодных числ,
. И дар божественных видений,
.Нам внятно все — и острый галльский смысл,
. И сумрачный германский гений...
.Мы помним все — парижских улиц ад,
. И венецьянские прохлады,
.Лимонных рощ далекий аромат,
. И Кельна дымные громады...
.Мы любим плоть — и вкус ее, и цвет,
. И душный, смертный плоти запах...
.Виновны ль мы, коль хрустнет ваш скелет
. В тяжелых, нежных наших лапах?
.Привыкли мы, хватая под уздцы
. Играющих коней ретивых,
.Ломать коням тяжелые крестцы,
. И усмирять рабынь строптивых...
.Придите к нам! От ужасов войны
. Придите в мирные объятья!
.Пока не поздно — старый меч в ножны,
. Товарищи! Мы станем — братья!
.А если нет, — нам нечего терять,
. И нам доступно вероломство!
.Века, века — вас будет проклинать
. Больное, позднее потомство!
.Мы широко по дебрям и лесам
. Перед Европою пригожей
.Расступимся! Мы обернемся к вам
. Своею азиатской рожей!
.Идите все, идите на Урал!
. Мы очищаем место бою
.Стальных машин, где дышит интеграл,
. С монгольской дикою ордою!
.Но сами мы — отныне — вам — не щит,
. Отныне в бой не вступим сами!
.Мы поглядим, как смертный бой кипит,
. Своими узкими глазами!
.Не сдвинемся, когда свирепый Гунн
. В карманах трупов будет шарить,
.Жечь города, и в церковь гнать табун,
. И мясо белых братьев жарить!..
.В последний раз — опомнись, старый мир!
. На братский пир труда и мира,
.В последний раз — на светлый братский пир
. Сзывает варварская лира!
30 января 1918
The majority of Russian territory is in Asia :)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
The majority of Russian territory is in Asia :)
Yes, but this areas were appended during 1000 years of existence. The tribes that formed Russia (Rus) lived in Europe, and its center & capitals were in a European part of the continent too.
Just a stray fact: total area of British empire clononies was about 37 000 000 km², Britain's was only 245 000 km² (about 150 times less). Funny, but I don't remember anyone thinking that Britain was an Asian country because of that. I think it's weird, that in modern atlases they list Russia as an Asian country. I remember that I could not find it once because of that. :) There's less connections with Asia (different language system, for example), than with Europe, don't you think?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
The majority of Russian territory is in Asia :)
Yes, but this areas were appended during 1000 years of existence. The tribes that formed Russia (Rus) lived in Europe, and its center & capitals were in a European part of the continent too.
Just a stray fact: total area of British empire clononies was about 37 000 000 km², Britain's was only 245 000 km² (about 150 times less). Funny, but I don't remember anyone thinking that Britain was an Asian country because of that. I think it's weird, that in modern atlases they list Russia as an Asian country. I remember that I could not find it once because of that. :) There's less connections with Asia (different language system, for example), than with Europe, don't you think?
Language is not everything. They speak English in Australia, remember? Besides, there are many words in Russian that came from the Turkic languages. We're partly Scythians (who were Asians and here Alexander Blok is right). Russia spent 300 years under the Mongol occupation so Russians are not pure Europeans by all means.
Well, personally, I've never considered Russia a strictly European or Asian country. Russia is unique because its geography and it has always been a bridge between the East and the West. Russia is just Russia and I don't think it requires any further classification.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
So Ramil, how would you answer this question?
Please select one option:
a) I am European
b) I am Asian
c) I consider myself to be both Asian and European (Eurasian)
d) I do not consider myself to be either of the above.
e) Decline to respond.
Anyone else please answer too if you want!
Obviously my answer is "a"
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Johanna
So Ramil, how would you answer this question?
c) I consider myself to be both Asian and European (Eurasian)
d) I do not consider myself to be either of the above.
I am torn between c) and d). :D
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Please select one option:
a) I am European
b) I am Asian
c) I consider myself to be both Asian and European (Eurasian)
d) I do not consider myself to be either of the above.
e) Decline to respond.
I'd choose either a) or c). I do love Asian cultures -- was re-watching my favourite Indian film just yesterday *nuts about Shahrukh Khan* :roll: But if I were to choose where to live -- in Iran or, say, France, I'd definitely choose France. I'm sorry but I think this stuff about Russians being "Asian" is bunk, for the most part. We are Europeoids in terms of race. :upset: We don't have slanted eyes. Russian character, or soul, if you will, is different from the European one due to the severity of climate and centuries of suffering. Suffering elevates your soul, as Buddha taught, that's why Russians and Western people make an ado about "mysterious Russian Soul" and that's why Russians may be hard to understand.
I used to think I was half English, half Russian, actually, because I love English lit and when you immerse into the language and culture of another country, you unwittingly assume some of its traits. Russia always aspired to be more European -- from Peter I to the Russian aristocrats who spoke French among themselves and knew it better than their native language. :? I don't presume to say that the European culture is *better* than the Asian ones. I think we are special, just like any other culture and we would do better to adopt and absorb all the good traits of different cultures. I def wouldn't want Russia to become completely like the US, say. I'm sorry but the extreme competitiveness and chase after money and wealth aren't very appealing as a national identity but some ideas are worth borrowing, that's for sure. :wink:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Please select one option:
a) I am European
b) I am Asian
c) I consider myself to be both Asian and European (Eurasian)
d) I do not consider myself to be either of the above.
e) Decline to respond.
Anyone else please answer too if you want!
It's an interesting pool. My first intention was to choose the answer "a"; but it would be not actually true, I think. Well, of course, the closest culture for us Russians is the European one. Also, I don't think we are as close to Asia culturally as it's usually considered. I'd rather agree with Ramil's statement that "Russia is just Russia and I don't think it requires any further classification." I think that we and Europeans, although we have close cultures, have many differences in our everyday life, way of life, psychology. I think a European is more predictable in his psychology than a Russian. He's also more... erm... "calm"; and I think things are more clearly "black-and-white" to him. But a Russian can strogly love and at once hate the same thing. As someone said, "only a Russian can be arguing to a foreigner that Russia is a bad country, and give him a box on the mug when he agrees".
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
For me, it's a) and d). I definitely don't have any ties to Asia, so b) is out of the question. I feel more like I don't belong anywhere, and it's partially because of this 'nationality confusion' you discussed in another topic (you can call it identity crisis, if you want).
I'm usually vague about my country of residence (often I say something like "I'm from Eastern Europe", if I feel that I can go away with it). If not, then I tell people that I'm from Ukraine. Though I prefer to avoid it, because it often cause people to jump to the wrong assumptions, for example that I'm Ukrainian (which I'm not), or that I don't like Russia (which is not true), etc. It's getting ridiculous sometimes. I told one person that I'm from Ukraine, and he started badmouthing Russians right away. I'm sure he didn't feel strongly on the subject, it looked more like he tried to be pleasant. Then I said "I'm Russian, actually". And he was like "Oh". Yeah.. Awkward.
I can say that I'm from Europe only if I talk to a person who lives outside of Europe and CIS (like Latin America or Africa), because I suppose that for many of them Europe is a distant clump of similar countries, and it saves time.
And sometimes I respond (quite illogically, but truthfully nonetheless) to "Where are you from?" with "I'm Russian", and let them fill the blanks. :D
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
I think that the difference between East and West is the difference between collectivism and individualism. This is what concerns mentality. Considering this, Russian curture is not European since we're not such individualists as the Europeans, but certainly it's not of the Asian type also. As I said, our culture and mentality is a fusion of the Asian collectivism and Western individualism.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I think that the difference between East and West is the difference between collectivism and individualism. This is what concerns mentality. Considering this, Russian curture is not European since we're not such individualists as the Europeans, but certainly it's not of the Asian type also. As I said, our culture and mentality is a fusion of the Asian collectivism and Western individualism.
Yes, you are right, Ramil, we are somewhere in the middle when it comes to collectivism and individualism. We are nowehere near the Japanese in terms of collectivism, it would seem, but not individualistic enough either.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
The East-West / Individualism-collectivism argument is interesting.
Well I think the Russian people here are fairly individualistic...???
But maybe you are not representative of Russians in general?
Also, Russian people I have met in the UK and Sweden have definitely been individualistic and independent. But then, they were people who moved abroad etc. Again, maybe not representative.
I guess things were a bit more "collectivist" during the Soviet era? Is that what you are referring to? But you kicked out that system, lol!! Probably partly because many people thought it was too regimented?
Actually thinking about it, I don't come from a massively individualistic country either... People tend to prefer consensus and not sticking out TOO much (just a little bit).
People of certain nationalities (none mentioned) can seem "too much" and "in your face" to us... Agree about Asians, they are too collectivistic for my taste.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
The East-West / Individualism-collectivism argument is interesting.
Well I think the Russian people here are fairly individualistic...???
Yes, and that makes us non-Asians, but we're not individualistic enough and that makes us non-Europeans.
Quote:
Also, Russian people I have met in the UK and Sweden have definitely been individualistic and independent. But then, they were people who moved abroad etc. Again, maybe not representative.
Of course, that's why they've left.
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I guess things were a bit more "collectivist" during the Soviet era?
They were. But some things remain even now. Untill all of us, born in the USSR die out. :D
I'm not saying that we're collectivists to the bone, but still we were brought up in the times when people were throwing around 'we' pronoun for too often.
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Is that what you are referring to? But you kicked out that system, lol!! Probably partly because many people thought it was too regimented?
Not that system. To clarify a bit - maybe not all ex-Soviets will share my thought but the thing people were kicking out was the CPSU, not the USSR in general. People just didn't anticipate that once the CPSU domination had ended USSR would collapse as well. Nobody objected to the ideology it was the methods it was pushed in our heads with that angried people and also the corruption.
Quote:
Actually thinking about it, I don't come from a massively individualistic country either... People tend to prefer consensus and not sticking out TOO much (just a little bit).
I'm not talking about consensus, I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way. As a 9 y.o. kid I was required to take an oath that I would always put the interests of the socium above my personal interests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Pro ... g_Pioneers
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I'm not talking about consensus, I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way.
I agree, it was a part of culture, and kids were raised to respect or even to bend to the wishes of the majority.
"Я" is the last letter of the alphabet" ("Я" - последняя буква в алфавите) was a common saying, used to berated young (or not so young) children for being too focused on their own persona. :)
A person who insisted on his own desires that went against the wishes of people who surrounded him was not percieved in a positive light (individualistic, initiative, etc.), he was considered stuck up and selfish.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I'm not talking about consensus, I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way.
One notable difference between the US and Russia "наша." You usually don't "our" in the US, it's all 3rd person, "the American team won, American troops were killed, etc." It's interesting that at least part of "наша" stems from indoctrination and training.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Please select one option:
a) I am European
b) I am Asian
c) I consider myself to be both Asian and European (Eurasian)
d) I do not consider myself to be either of the above.
e) Decline to respond.
I was always fascinated with European culture, I grew up with Alexandre Dumas', Conan Doyle's, Walter Scott's, Robert Stevenson's and Jules Verne's novels and I think that Russian culture without doubts has European origin, but of course it has it's own unique features due to geographic, religion and ethnic profiles. Asian culture is great, but I always feel like it's kind of alien and exotic for me. Also as far as I know all my ancestors were of Slavic origin (mostly ethnic Russians), who lived in European part of Russian Empire (particulary in Nizhny Novgorod, Vyatka, Vladimir and Ryazan provinces). The only exception I know of, well, may be one of them was French. There is some kind of legend in my family (my father's line) that the founder of the family was a Napoleonic soldier, who was captured by Russians in 1812, and later adopted Orthodoxy, married a Russian girl and changed his surname Savigny to СавИнов. :D
But aside from my humble person, I wonder if we compare percentage of people who belongs to European race in such without doubts European cities as Paris or London and in Russian cities located in Asian continent such as Novosibirsk or Krasnoyarsk? I guess they (the Siberian cities) wouldn't look more Asian from this point.
Well, considering the above, my answer is mostly a) and maybe a little d) (at least that's the way I feel like).
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
It's interesting that at least part of "наша" stems from indoctrination and training.
It's an interesting thought.. Though I don't think that this is the best explanation. "Наша страна" and similar expressions have more to do with traditions and language than some kind of deliberate training.
There's one more "мы" vs. "я" example in Russian, you must have been seen: "Мы с Петей пошли в кино" (Petya and I went to the cinema). "Я и Петя пошли в кино" is also possible, but "мы" sounds more natural. Again, it's not the result of some training or forcing people to use "мы" instead of "я". It's a part of culture, Russians have been talking this way for centuries, they got used to this, so "мы" does sound better style-wise in this case.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
It's an interesting point, indeed... "У меня в доме", "у меня в подъезде", "у меня на этаже" do sound a bit off... Well, the house is not only mine, after all; it's a big block of flats. But I noticed that I really prefer to use "мы" instead of "я" in many cases, even if it's really only "я".
I think it's a part of the language, first of all; gRomoZeka is absolutely right.
And still, I must admit that I am very, very individualistic, and, I hope, independent, too. :oops:
To me, one of the main distinctive features of Russian people is indiscipline. I'd even say that's our Russian form of independence. I don't mean that a Russian can't discipline himself, although it's open to question, too. I mean he can't be disciplined by someone else (and that's the thing I can definitely say about myself). You can't make bus drivers open the front door if they don't want to. You can't make clerical people and shop assistants smile and be polite if they don't feel to smile and to be nice with this particular person. You can't make a man go to work if he wants to go on a drinking bout. You have no power over souls and wishes of Russian people.
The European independence is reasonable and rational; the Russian one is turbulent and has no limits.
Probably I sound too apocalyptical, but that's how I really see it. :)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Оля
I think it's a part of the language, first of all; gRomoZeka is absolutely right.
Nothing in this world happens without a reason. And if this phenomenon has become part of the language then there is a reason for it.
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And still, I must admit that I am very, very individualistic, and, I hope, independent, too. :oops:
Good for you, but this is different. We (again 'we') still try to find some common features, traits, etc in people that surrounds us. We can judge for the whole country or haven't you noticed?
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To me, one of the main distinctive features of Russian people is indiscipline.
Well, I don't think we have the monopoly for that. Quite the opposite - Asians are very disciplined because the lack of discipline (something that is common to a large group of people) is a sign of individual approach. We're more Europeans in this regard.
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The European independence is reasonable and rational; the Russian one is turbulent and has no limits.
... бессмысленная и беспощадная. :D
(не удержался).
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Quote:
To me, one of the main distinctive features of Russian people is indiscipline.
Well, I don't think we have the monopoly for that. Quite the opposite - Asians are very disciplined because the lack of discipline (something that is common to a large group of people) is a sign of individual approach. We're more Europeans in this regard.
Ну в таком случае мы еще более "индивидуалистичны", чем европейцы. Потому что я не думаю, что в Европе есть какие-то трудности с объяснением людям их обязанностей и их выполнением. С этой точки зрения европейцы как раз очень дисциплинированы. Оговорюсь - если судить по тому, что я о них знаю и слышала, потому что в Европе я не была, в магазины там не заходила, на автобусах не каталась. :) Но говорят, что персонал там везде вежливый, клиентам улыбается. Это ведь тоже дисциплина. Им просто один раз объяснили, вот и всё. А русский человек, извиняюсь... кладет на то, что ему указывают и объясняют. Он по форме-то сделает, а вот душу вложит только если сам решит, что это нужно, и решать будет только он сам в каждом конкретном случае. А для русского человека улыбнуться - это тоже значит душу вложить. Не может он просто так, просто потому что надо. Даже за деньги не может. Когда его не контролируют, не стоят над душой и не стучат по голове, он будет таким, каким ему удобно быть. И ничего ты с ним не поделаешь.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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if this phenomenon has become part of the language then there is a reason for it.
Well, yes, mentality affects the language, and language affects the mentality. It's like a chicken or the egg paradox.
In other words, grammar constructions we use without thinking reflect the history of the nation,and they still influence us on some level. For example, Russian language is famous for its lack of 'initiative' in grammar. :)
e.g. "Мне холодно"~"Something is making me cold" vs "Я замерз"~"I'm feeling cold" (the latter is quite fine, but the former is used more often)
or "У меня есть сестра"~"There's a sister by me" (?) vs. "I have a sister"="Я имею сестру" (the latter is unacceptable)
Some people draw all kinds of conclusions from that (a fatalistic outlook, passive nature, etc.). You can decide for yourself if it means anything. ;)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Ну в таком случае мы еще более "индивидуалистичны", чем европейцы. Потому что я не думаю, что в Европе есть какие-то трудности с объяснением людям их обязанностей и их выполнением. С этой точки зрения европейцы как раз очень дисциплинированы.
Сфера обслуживания - да, да и то... раз на раз не приходится. Если брать Германию, то там да - alles in Ordnung, но это Германия и это, быть может, единственная страна в Европе, где так (может быть ещё Скандинавия, хотя я там не был). А взять, к примеру, Францию или Италию - то там нахамить могут на раз, и вообще отношение весьма пофигическое. Да и работать из-под палки тоже могут не только россияне. По большей части все так и работают. Шевеление начинается только, когда пахнет деньгами. Это уже из моего опыта работы со шейцарскими коллегами.
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Им просто один раз объяснили, вот и всё.
Да, роботизированный персонал. Должностные инструкции разрабатываются для дебилов (т.е. дебил вполне сможет работать по такой инструкции). Между прочим, такая практика активно внедряется и у нас в стране. От человека не требуется вообще никакой инициативы: "Лопата - Копать - Здесь - Кидать - Туда - До 6 вечера."
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А русский человек, извиняюсь... кладет на то, что ему указывают и объясняют. Он по форме-то сделает, а вот душу вложит только если сам решит, что это нужно, и решать будет только он сам в каждом конкретном случае.
Ага, а европейцы душу вкладывают. Как же, жди! Они вообще только по форме и могут делать. Разница в том, что у европейцев форма индивидуальная, а у азиатов - для целого коллектива.
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А для русского человека улыбнуться - это тоже значит душу вложить. Не может он просто так, просто потому что надо. Даже за деньги не может.
Ещё как может. Ты в какой-нибудь дорогой магазин зайди - улыбнутся, поднесут, унесут, кофе/чай, иногда шампанское. В общем-то разницы никакой, за деньги - улыбнётся, а за твои 300 рэ. - пошлёт куда подальше. Между прочим, обслуживание по ценовой категории, скажем, "выше среднего" в Европе зачастую гораздо хуже, чем у нас. У нас, конечно, цены бешенные, но зато клиента буквально "облизывают" со всех сторон.
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Когда его не контролируют, не стоят над душой и не стучат по голове, он будет таким, каким ему удобно быть. И ничего ты с ним не поделаешь.
Это любой человек в любом уголке земного шара. И европеец, и американец, и азиат, и африканец. И, мне кажется, даже пингвин в Антарктиде.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Well, yes, mentality affects the language, and language affects the mentality. It's like a chicken or the egg paradox.
Uh-huh. And mentality is formed by life conditions. And life in Russia is hard because it's cold, I suppose. Lack of sunlight is notorious for making people depressed and gloomy --> problems with alcohol... I've heard of a lot of people who went to extreme North, like Norilsk, and became really mentally ill there and committed suicide. Thankfully, we have a lot of sunshine here in Novosib... A climate that is too hot doesn't seem to be conducive to progress, either, though. It's interesting that Northern European countries, like Sweden adopted socialism, isn't it? So Russia and Sweden must really have something in common, when it comes to national character, Johanna! :friends:
And it's very interesting indeed, about the language. How are you supposed to adequately translate "наши" into English? As in ecstatic exclamations, like "Наши победили!" or something of that sort? Part of meaning will be lost...
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Originally Posted by Оля
Но говорят, что персонал там везде вежливый, клиентам улыбается. Это ведь тоже дисциплина. Им просто один раз объяснили, вот и всё.
Да, только им еще платят по-человечески. А у нас некоторые работодатели требуют по-европейски, а платят... Если бы мне платили $1000 как нормальному европейскому продавцу, а не 7000 рэ, то я, так и быть, подумала бы о том, чтобы получше эти требования соблюдать. :roll: Это не значит, что я буду хамить покупателям, а просто именно так -- улыбаться, если покупатель тоже вежлив и не очень-то держаться за это место. А так я эти 7000 зарабатываю с гораздо меньшими усилиями, сидя дома и занимаясь переводами. Тепло, светло и мухи не кусают. :-) Все-таки работа по специальности и есть перспективы...
Ну и в ментальности дело тоже, конечно. Наверно, русский человек привык, чтобы ему сильно на мозги не капали. У нас тут недавно скандал был -- в местную школу пришла новая директриса, вся такая требовательная -- у нас в универе она 4 года преподавала французский, так что я её знаю. Начала наводить в школе "порядки", заставлять учителей делать какие-то вещи, которых раньше не было или на которые смотрели сквозь пальцы. Чтоб всё по букве закона, по бумажке. Они, как люди другой закалки взбунтовались, естес-но.
С другой стороны, немцы перед второй мировой тоже старательно изучали русский характер -- читали "Обломова", диссертации защищали... Типа, ленив русский. Ха-ха. Лучше бы про 1812 читали.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Между прочим, обслуживание по ценовой категории, скажем, "выше среднего" в Европе зачастую гораздо хуже, чем у нас. У нас, конечно, цены бешенные, но зато клиента буквально "облизывают" со всех сторон.
Может быть потому, что европейские богатеи не приравнивают холуйство персонала к качеству обслуживания?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Между прочим, обслуживание по ценовой категории, скажем, "выше среднего" в Европе зачастую гораздо хуже, чем у нас. У нас, конечно, цены бешенные, но зато клиента буквально "облизывают" со всех сторон.
Может быть потому, что европейские богатеи не приравнивают холуйство персонала к качеству обслуживания?
Приравнивают, даже более требовательны в этом плане, чем наши нувориши, которые во многом ещё не избавились от советского стереотипа обслуживания. Потом, они там именно для того, чтобы холуйствовать, это часть "добавленной стоимости" товаров, выставляемых в подобных торговых точках.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Оля
А для русского человека улыбнуться - это тоже значит душу вложить.
Вот именно, что у нас "смех без причины -- признак дурачины." Американцы пущай улыбаются своими дежурными улыбками, если им надо... А так, какой в этом смысл? Мне всегда казалось, что доброжелательного тона голоса, который показывает, что я хочу помочь человеку и сделаю "всё от меня зависящее", вполне достаточно. Потом, среди покупателей тоже каждый день есть хоть одна такая заноза и неадекват, что на весь день может настроение испортить. С такими уж извините -- нас как бы учили, что в нашей стране все равны и никто его "вылизывать" не будет ни за какие деньги. Терпеть и молчать в тряпочку приходилось, это да.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
It's interesting to see how harshly many of you judge your own country/people. I have read that Putin is trying to improve national self esteem.
Compare your harsh view of your own country with the Chinese! Or the Americans and their positive view of their country and themselves, despite many, many faults and wrongdoings. Ask a French person for example what's wrong with America vs Russia. I think you'd be surprised how favourably you'd come out!
In Scandinavia, the view of Russians is:
-Lots of people are serious intellectuals and very smart.
-Lots of people are heavy drinkers of alcohol (same as us but booze is cheaper and easier to buy.)
-"Intensive" people, passionate and with a temper. "Arctic Italians"
-Guys are quite macho and girls quite feminine compared with us.
-Lots of "urban myths" about extreme stuff: - Have you heard that in Russia..... [something extreme]
Personally I wouldn't have said "collectivistic" and I can't remember having heard anything about that.
I am aware of the socialist principle of putting society's needs before ones own. But it doesn't seem like people in Russia are doing that at the moment. Haha Ramil, listen to the "pioneer" inside you! Do a good deed!
It must be doing very strange things with a nations "soul" to go from viewing itself as the spearbearer of a righteous ideology, to "the bad guy" of the 20th century (essentially the US view). First trying to turn people into collectivist solidarity minded communists, and then suddenly being hit by the nastiest sort of capitalism (oligarchs and gangsters), denouncing the past and tearing down what socialism created.
If Russia was a person, it might be suffering from "post traumatic shock" and maybe schizophrenia!"
I see LOTS of parallels between Russia and the Britain where I live right now. I mean the loss of an "empire" if you don't mind the word.... Followed by the need to "reinvent" itself in a new incarnation, which takes some time.
Example:
Britons can be SO hard on themselves when they speak about the country, the climate, language skills, the stupidity of many Brits and the imperial past. It seems that there is no national pride at all. "Multiculturalism" is a big theme and the culture of the large immigrant groups is treated with almost as much respect as British culture. Being pro-British is seen as almost the same as being racist.
But suddenly Brits can change 360 degrees and start implying that in fact, they brought "civilisation" to the colonies, built most of their current infrastructure, hospitals etc. Not to mention their view that they saved Europe from Nazism and suffered tremendously during the war etc.
Then there is the situation whereby people in the ex-colonies idealise Britain and even its past rule enormously. Millions try to get to Britain to live there... Despite the fact that Britain was a colonial imperialistic exploiter and seriously discriminated against them! (I don't think that can be said about the USSR).
After the loss of the empire Britain went through hard economic times for two decades, and allied itself really closely with the US and its "ideology".
Am I right to think that most people in Russia aren't terribly interested in a Western style democracy...? I get the feeling people are more interested in law and order plus increased living standards, and that they aren't convinced anymore, that democracy is the best way to achieve that.
If so that would be a BIG difference with Europe, since all countries in the EU believe that democracy is the only good form of government. (BTW, the EU is not democratic at all, it's largely an illusion. But that's a different story)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way.
The "positive" aspect was that "we" implied less individual responsibility... :hlop:
Having said that, I'm somewhat curious about that notorious "individualistic" European culture. I'd like to dispute that. It's true that the language is full of I's and the sayings such as "think for yourself", "you want the best for yourself", and so on. However, all I can hear around is the choir singing slogans praising "team work", "approach as a team", "solve as a team", "give back to the community", etc. The Team seems to be a holy cow. If you're not a "team-payer" you won't get a job. :roll:
I think the difference between Russian and European culture has vastly been stretched out. Russian traits are much more European than Japanese. No one in Russia would even slightly entertain the idea of cutting off their limbs out of shame. :instruct:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Johanna
It's interesting to see how harshly many of you judge your own country/people. I have read that Putin is trying to improve national self esteem.
Yes, but we reserve the right to do so only for ourselves. Foreigners are not allowed to be hash on our 'beloved Russia' :D
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I am aware of the socialist principle of putting society's needs before ones own. But it doesn't seem like people in Russia are doing that at the moment. Haha Ramil, listen to the "pioneer" inside you! Do a good deed!
That's the point. In our childhood everyone was talking about that but when we'd finally grown up everything turned upside down. This was the reason of 'inner conflict' in many Russians (especially of older age). The young adapted faster. The ideas that had been planted into your head in your earliest childhood haunt you from time to time.
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If Russia was a person, it might be suffering from "post traumatic shock" and maybe schizophrenia!"
Well said. Schizophrenia it is! :D
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I see LOTS of parallels between Russia and the Britain where I live right now. I mean the loss of an "empire" if you don't mind the word.... Followed by the need to "reinvent" itself in a new incarnation, which takes some time.
Yep, but Britain got 'lucky' and has lost the 'superpower' title during the WW2. It didn't happen overnight and nobody had noticed the change right at first.
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But suddenly Brits can change 360 degrees...
:) Perhaps you wanted to say 180 degrees... :roll:
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Am I right to think that most people in Russia aren't terribly interested in a Western style democracy...?
It's hard to say for all. Judging by the people I know personally, the answer is yes. But there is a strong brain-washing about 'democratic values', etc and I really don't know. Most probably, there are very few has left who does care about political organization of our country. There has always been someone higher up who decided everything (during more than 1000 years of Russian history it has always been so, by the way). Who cares? Monarchy, oligarchy, socialism, democracy - there have always been those in power and common folks. Nothing really changes in Russia in this field.
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I get the feeling people are more interested in law and order plus increased living standards, and that they aren't convinced anymore, that democracy is the best way to achieve that.
I think that whoever gives all this to people would have universal popularity, even if this peson is a cannibal with sadistic instincts.
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If so that would be a BIG difference with Europe, since all countries in the EU believe that democracy is the only good form of government. (BTW, the EU is not democratic at all, it's largely an illusion. But that's a different story)
Yes, but europeans are biased. They've been told that there are no good alternatives. And they keep hearing this even now.
To change something, as Lenin wrote, one need a revolutionary situation in the country. Content people don't revolt. So if I keep my population well fed (as it is the case with Europeans) I can do anything I want. I can even give these people the illusion of choice (and by doing so I will transfer the responsibility for my actions to them - after all, it was them who 'elected' me).
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by Ramil
I'm talking about using 'we' instead of 'I'. We were taught this way.
The "positive" aspect was that "we" implied less individual responsibility... :hlop:
This too. It's a part of the overal scheme. That's why I don't like democracy. There's always noone to blame.
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Having said that, I'm somewhat curious about that notorious "individualistic" European culture. I'd like to dispute that. It's true that the language is full of I's and the sayings such as "think for yourself", "you want the best for yourself", and so on. However, all I can hear around is the choir singing slogans praising "team work", "approach as a team", "solve as a team", "give back to the community", etc. The Team seems to be a holy cow. If you're not a "team-payer" you won't get a job. :roll:
But they remain just that - slogans. Nobody really cares if your teammate suddenly gets fired. :D
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I think the difference between Russian and European culture has vastly been stretched out. Russian traits are much more European than Japanese. No one in Russia would even slightly entertain the idea of cutting off their limbs out of shame. :instruct:
From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.
I'm not trying to say that Russia is typically asian, I only try to say that it's more Asian than France, for example. And from the other hand it's more European than Turkey (or Georgia for that matter). The correct term will be 'Eurasian'. This word reflects the real position of Russia among the world's cultures.
We're not Asians by all means, but we're not Europeans either.