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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
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Having said that, I'm somewhat curious about that notorious "individualistic" European culture. I'd like to dispute that. It's true that the language is full of I's and the sayings such as "think for yourself", "you want the best for yourself", and so on. However, all I can hear around is the choir singing slogans praising "team work", "approach as a team", "solve as a team", "give back to the community", etc. The Team seems to be a holy cow. If you're not a "team-payer" you won't get a job. :roll:
But they remain just that - slogans. Nobody really cares if your teammate suddenly gets fired. :D
Neither would Russians. :D
The fact that Europeans typically are more reserved and less outward emotional is only a bit wider gap of the same type that St.Peterers and Moscovites exhibit. I fail to notice the "bottomless abyss that divide our cultures". Location-wise Russia is between Europe and Asia and as such has adopted some of each culture. However, the "managing top" has been pan European for a couple of recent centuries, and so, as starrysky has mentioned, the European culture (especially French and German) was considered the high-class/educated.
Having said that, not all Europeans were high-class/educated themselves. The word "villain" means "villager" in French. :instruct:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by Ramil
But they remain just that - slogans. Nobody really cares if your teammate suddenly gets fired. :D
Neither would Russians. :D
Agreed. But you were pointing out that Europeans are not so individualistic as it might appear.
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I fail to notice the "bottomless abyss that divide our cultures".
Yes, because you have Russian background. But imagine you were a rural Portugese guy. What would you know of Russia and its culture?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Agreed. But you were pointing out that Europeans are not so individualistic as it might appear.
Exactly. So, the "fired team mate" example wasn't able to demonstrate that Russians are less individualistic for that matter.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
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I fail to notice the "bottomless abyss that divide our cultures".
Yes, because you have Russian background. But imagine you were a rural Portugese guy. What would you know of Russia and its culture?
Being a rural Portuguese guy I would probably not know much about the high-class Russian culture as much as a rural Russian guy would not know a lot about Portuguese high-class culture.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Johanna
It's interesting to see how harshly many of you judge your own country/people.
Johanna, I think it would be an important and interesting point for you if I say that we, or at least one of us who speak so "harshly" about our country - I mean myself - don't actually find that view a harsh one, and don't see anything that terrible in all I've described. To me, personally, an undisciplined person are nicer than a disciplined one. I can't explain it. Probably because I myself can't be disciplined by anybody else; although it can be and is unreasonable, sometimes. Probably because my own idea about freedom is turbulent. Also, I prefer someone not to smile to me just because it's supposed to smile. I don't need exorbitant courtesy from a clerk or a salesperson; just a neutral tone and minimal politeness (like "hello", "thank you" and "good bye") is quite enough for me. I wouldn't like everyone around me to smile and to be extra-nice; it looks like idiocy. I prefer to think that a rude shop assistant has a kind heart somewhere deeply inside, and I believe in many cases that's how it really is. I could say more, but it would sound very stilted and stupid.
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Am I right to think that most people in Russia aren't terribly interested in a Western style democracy...?
I'd say definitely yes.
In fact, democracy is a slogan. Like "Да здравствует Ленин" or "Слава КПСС". Been there, done that. It's no longer interesting. For western people, slogan games are something of a novelty. Let them play with slogans and democracy then. But we have something more serious to do. :)
To me, personally, a true valuable slogan could be love, kindness, friendship, fidelity, and so on, and so on. What is called "вечные ценности". And I am really amazed how western people can change these valuables (which are not invented and discovered just yesterday) for that stupid word, "democracy".
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Оля
For western people, slogan games are something of a novelty.
And may I ask for the source, please?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Agreed. But you were pointing out that Europeans are not so individualistic as it might appear.
Exactly. So, the "fired team mate" example wasn't able to demonstrate that Russians are less individualistic for that matter.
I didn't indend to illustrate this point, I simply was objecting using 'slogans' for illustrating the collectivism of Europeans.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
[quote:1k1vif6a]I fail to notice the "bottomless abyss that divide our cultures".
Yes, because you have Russian background. But imagine you were a rural Portugese guy. What would you know of Russia and its culture?
Being a rural Portuguese guy I would probably not know much about the high-class Russian culture as much as a rural Russian guy would not know a lot about Portuguese high-class culture.[/quote:1k1vif6a]
Come on, don't say you didn't hear all those stereotypes that surround Russia and the Russians in the minds of Europeans (or Americans)? Bears, vodka, balalayka, that sort of cr@p.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by Оля
For western people, slogan games are something of a novelty.
And may I ask for the source, please?
Я не очень поняла твой вопрос. Я имела в виду лозунги. Типа "Слава советскому народу" и "Да здравствует КПСС" на каждом доме. Типа "догоним и перегоним", "даешь пятилетку" и т.д. На Западе вроде ни под одним лозунгом не жили 70 лет.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
I didn't indend to illustrate this point, I simply was objecting using 'slogans' for illustrating the collectivism of Europeans.
I can share your point of view. I used the certain "collective" slogans to balance the other "individualistic" slogans as they are usually referred to as a proof of the individualistic nature of Europeans. Rarely are there other proofs provided.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Come on, don't say you didn't hear all those stereotypes that surround Russia and the Russians in the minds of Europeans (or Americans)? Bears, vodka, balalayka, that sort of cr@p.
That crap is well-known. As much as the other sort of crap like cowboys, whisky, and banjo. Crap, in general, doesn't prove anything. Judging by crap, the "bottomless abyss that divide our cultures" is defined as follows: :mosking:
vodka = whisky
bears = cows
balalayka = banjo
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
[quote=Оля] Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by "Оля":gxhop5rc
For western people, slogan games are something of a novelty.
And may I ask for the source, please?
Я не очень поняла твой вопрос. Я имела в виду лозунги. Типа "Слава советскому народу" и "Да здравствует КПСС" на каждом доме. Типа "догоним и перегоним", "даешь пятилетку" и т.д. На Западе вроде ни под одним лозунгом не жили 70 лет.[/quote:gxhop5rc]
Ну здрасти! А чем, по твоему, дядя Сэм убеждал сам себя в своей правоте в период холодной войны? Всё той же демократией, свободой, и т.д. Нет ничего нового под солнцем. Лозунги - они лозунги и есть. И в современной России они просто другие. "Не ляжем под Америку!", "У нас свой, особенный путь!", и т.д. :mosking:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
vodka = whisky
bears = cows
balalayka = banjo
Abyss indeed! :lol:
So you don't agree that Europeans are more individualistic than the Russians in general?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
So you don't agree that Europeans are more individualistic than the Russians in general?
Here's the thing. Before I agree or disagree, I would like you to somehow quantify the "more" in the "more individualistic". And the quantification is relative, as you know. So, what is your scale? I strongly disagree about the "abyss" though.
As a side word to you, Ramil, I know you're leaning towards the "cryptocracy", so ask yourself, who would benefit from the aforementioned "abyss"? I mean, let's get real here. You know some of European culture, and Europeans know some of yours. Would you know Japanese culture better than European? What culture more influenced you personally European or Japanese? What name rings the bells better for you: Walter Scott or Chikamatsu Monzaemon?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Ну здрасти! А чем, по твоему, дядя Сэм убеждал сам себя в своей правоте в период холодной войны? Всё той же демократией, свободой, и т.д. Нет ничего нового под солнцем. Лозунги - они лозунги и есть. И в современной России они просто другие. "Не ляжем под Америку!", "У нас свой, особенный путь!", и т.д. :mosking:
Я не согласна, что в современной России есть лозунги. Люди больше заняты собой, своей частной жизнью. Даже то, что ты назвал - если и есть, то не в форме лозунгов. На западе же демократия - это именно лозунг, красная тряпка, библия, святая святых. У нас сейчас ничего такого нет.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Оля
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Ну здрасти! А чем, по твоему, дядя Сэм убеждал сам себя в своей правоте в период холодной войны? Всё той же демократией, свободой, и т.д. Нет ничего нового под солнцем. Лозунги - они лозунги и есть. И в современной России они просто другие. "Не ляжем под Америку!", "У нас свой, особенный путь!", и т.д. :mosking:
Я не согласна, что в современной России есть лозунги. Люди больше заняты собой, своей частной жизнью. Даже то, что ты назвал - если и есть, то не в форме лозунгов. На западе же демократия - это именно лозунг, красная тряпка, библия, святая святых. У нас сейчас ничего такого нет.
Ну, вот видишь, у нас с тобой есть разногласие на эту тему. Я как включаю русское телевидение, то только и слышу, что про "особый путь" и про "соблюдение национальных интересов". А если на Западе остановить человека и спросить про жизнь, то он тоже ничего про демократию и свободу рассказывать не станет. Больше про что купил и где отдыхал.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
И, мне кажется, даже пингвин в Антарктиде.
Whoa! Are you into the Antarctic penguins too? :hlop: :beer:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by starrysky
And it's very interesting indeed, about the language. How are you supposed to adequately translate "наши" into English? As in ecstatic exclamations, like "Наши победили!" or something of that sort? Part of meaning will be lost...
"Yes we can?" :mosking:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Я как включаю русское телевидение, то только и слышу, что про "особый путь" и про "соблюдение национальных интересов".
"Соблюдение национальных интересов" - это клише и стандартное политическое бла-бла-бла любого правительства любой страны. Что касается "особого пути" - ну а что в этом нового? Это вообще банальность. Про особый путь России в России говорят не первое столетие. Не знаю, кто начал. Может, Достоевский. И что в этом плохого, кстати? И повторяю, никто это не воспринимает здесь как лозунг. Лично для меня это скорее прописная истина. :D (в этом есть доля шутки, но поверь, даже если бы это было 100% серьезно, то "вдолблено" мне это никак не телевидением, а скорее, тем же Достоевским).
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Я как включаю русское телевидение, то только и слышу, что про "особый путь" и про "соблюдение национальных интересов". А если на Западе остановить человека и спросить про жизнь, то он тоже ничего про демократию и свободу рассказывать не станет. Больше про что купил и где отдыхал.
Наверное, сейчас новости по общефедеральным каналам смотрят только бабушки в деревнях и иностранцы (включая эмигрантов). :) НИКТО из моих знакомых, с кем я общался на эту нему, не смотрит эту хрень, разве что иногда, ради прикола, что там, мол, ещё весёлого порасскажут. Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа :) . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Оля
"Соблюдение национальных интересов" - это клише и стандартное политическое бла-бла-бла любого правительства любой страны. Что касается "особого пути" - ну а что в этом нового? Это вообще банальность. Про особый путь России в России говорят не первое столетие. Не знаю, кто начал. Может, Достоевский. И что в этом плохого, кстати? И повторяю, никто это не воспринимает здесь как лозунг. Лично для меня это скорее прописная истина. :D (в этом есть доля шутки, но поверь, даже если бы это было 100% серьезно, то "вдолблено" мне это никак не телевидением, а скорее, тем же Достоевским).
Что-то мы всё по-русски, да по-русски.. вроде как англицкий практикуем. Ну да ладно.
Первым делом про особый путь. Разумеется не правительство изобрело этот термин. Но во времена оные, если мне не изменяет память, это имело контекст культурной конфронтации между славянофильством и западничеством. (Знаменитые "мокроступы" и т.п.) В наши дни этот термин стал употребляться в политической жизни совершенно в другом контексте. А именно - смена курса правительства времён Ельцина на Путина. Типа: "Ну делали мы как на Западе, и ничего хорошего не получилось. Наоборот, всё разворовали и утащили на Запад. Значит теперь надо заниматься укреплением вертикали власти. И что, это наступает на какие-то там свободы? Увы и ах! У России особый путь (=самый крутой в мире), ихние свободы - не для нас."
Простой подменой понятий из давнишней культурной дискуссии сформировался лозунг, имеющий вполне конкретные политические последствия.
Немного другая ситуация про "национальные интересы", но превращение в лозунг очевидно. Ты права в том смысле, что это - общий термин для чего угодно. Но в современном политическом контексте в России это означает примерно то же самое, что и "защита демократии" для США.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Basil77
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Я как включаю русское телевидение, то только и слышу, что про "особый путь" и про "соблюдение национальных интересов". А если на Западе остановить человека и спросить про жизнь, то он тоже ничего про демократию и свободу рассказывать не станет. Больше про что купил и где отдыхал.
Наверное, сейчас новости по общефедеральным каналам смотрят только бабушки в деревнях и иностранцы (включая эмигрантов). :) НИКТО из моих знакомых, с кем я общался на эту нему, не смотрит эту хрень, разве что иногда, ради прикола, что там, мол, ещё весёлого порасскажут. Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа :) . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.
Тут я с тобой полностью согласен. Самое наипрекраснейшее место для хорового распевания политических лозунгов.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Originally Posted by Ramil
So you don't agree that Europeans are more individualistic than the Russians in general?
Here's the thing. Before I agree or disagree, I would like you to somehow quantify the "more" in the "more individualistic". And the quantification is relative, as you know. So, what is your scale?
Well, let's see, who would you think will sooner understand the motives of a man, a person who lives nearby or a person from another continent?
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I strongly disagree about the "abyss" though.
You're not in a position to speak here, by the way. You're not from Western Europe, aren't you?
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As a side word to you, Ramil, I know you're leaning towards the "cryptocracy", so ask yourself, who would benefit from the aforementioned "abyss"?
I had to google about cryptocracy. :)
We're not discussing whether it goo or bad. In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.
Of course, the better educated person is the more he or she knows and the less that abyss I was speaking of. But FYI there is only about 1% of people in the world who has higher education.
And regardless of me being unfamiliar to my shame with Asian culture to the extent I'm familiar with the European one I still think that Russia is neither European nor Asian country.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Well, let's see, who would you think will sooner understand the motives of a man, a person who lives nearby or a person from another continent?
You lost me here. Would you be able to elaborate? Earlier I mentioned that St.Peterers are more reserved and less outwards emotional than Moscovites. So, are St.Peterers more individualistic than Moscovites? You see? The word "more" is a very bad word to be applied here. It can mean as much as 1% or as much as 90% inclusive.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
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I strongly disagree about the "abyss" though.
You're not in a position to speak here, by the way. You're not from Western Europe, aren't you?
And I strongly disagree with that as well. On the contrary, only the person who is familiar enough with BOTH cultures is in a position to evaluate the differences.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
We're not discussing whether it goo or bad. In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.
Ok, so now well-educated Johanna is asking well-educated yourself about the difference and you're saying it is huge. Why?
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Originally Posted by Ramil
Of course, the better educated person is the more he or she knows and the less that abyss I was speaking of. But FYI there is only about 1% of people in the world who has higher education.
Ok, so do you mean that the difference (individualistic-wise) between the well-educated Europeans and Russians is minimal? Or, do you mean that a French peasant is more individualistic than a Russian peasant?
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Originally Posted by Ramil
And regardless of me being unfamiliar to my shame with Asian culture to the extent I'm familiar with the European one I still think that Russia is neither European nor Asian country.
That is correct to the extent that France is not England, Spain is not France, Portugal is not Italy, Greece is not Scotland, etc. But (since I assume you normally eat with the fork and not with the chopsticks) do you agree that you were influenced much more by European culture than any other foreign culture? Ok, Russia was conquered by Mongols some time back, but how much do you know Mongolian culture?
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
And I strongly disagree with that as well. On the contrary, only the person who is familiar enough with BOTH cultures is in a position to evaluate the differences.
Crocodile, read again the original quote:
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Originally Posted by Ramil
From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.
If you see something alien (not familiar) and you don't understand it you see the difference.
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Originally Posted by Crocodlie
Ok, so now well-educated Johanna is asking well-educated yourself about the difference and you're saying it is huge. Why?
Read the original quote please.
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
Ok, so do you mean that the difference (individualistic-wise) between the well-educated Europeans and Russians is minimal?
No, but an educated man tries to find the common features.
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Or, do you mean that a French peasant is more individualistic than a Russian peasant?
Yes, I think so.
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
That is correct to the extent that France is not England...
No, I'll rephrase the original Johanna's question the way I understood it:
Do you believe that Russia is a European or Asian country. (Just like that, without definitions, clarifications, elaborations, etc).
My answer was - neither (again - just a simple answer to a simple question).
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа :) . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.
Кто-то мешает переключиться на РенТВ или Йэху Мацы, и насладиться чернухой? =)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
ихние свободы - не для нас."
Во многом это так и есть.
Вообще, свобода - она внутри человека. Ее нельзя привить политическим путем. Если и можно, то суррогат получается. Люди на западе думают, что они свободны уже потому, что они живут в некоей политической системе, которая априори делает их свободными. И всерьез рассуждают об отсутствии и защите свободы в стране, в которой они никогда не были.
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Простой подменой понятий из давнишней культурной дискуссии сформировался лозунг, имеющий вполне конкретные политические последствия.
Это твое личное видение, и на мой взгляд, довольно притянутое за уши. Я или кто-то другой может увидеть в словах про особый путь России в устах Медведева или Путина любой другой подтекст, какой ему больше нравится.
И все же ты путаешь лозунг с концепцией или национальной идеей, сокрытой в разных мудреных контекстах, которые еще надо уловить, объяснить и расжевать. Лозунг - это то, что для всех. Одно-два слова, просто и ясно. Так вот, демократия на западе - это лозунг для всех. Я даже не представляю себе, чтобы где-нибудь на американском ТВ организовали какое-нибудь ток-шоу на тему "Демократия - это хорошо или плохо?" А у нас на тему "особого национального пути" сколько угодно диспутов. Только свистни.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Da Croc is back on form!
:roll: My highly scientific expert opinion which has been empirically proven in numerous clinincal studies: :lol:
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SOME European countries are a bit more "individualistic".
In my opinion, Italian, Dutch and French people value individualism a lot. To some degree English people too.
Germans are a law unto themselves. Hard to say whether they are "individualistic" or not, but less than the French, Italians and English I think.
Swedes get critisized for being obsessed with consensus and that everybody tends to have very similar opinions about everything. Similar story in Finland and Austria, but Norwegians and Danes are a bit more individualistic.
I don't know enough about Eastern Europe, Greece or Portugal, so I don't have a view of that.
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Originally Posted by Ramil
In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.
Well, in the eyes of the same people that you are talking about, Russia fills a "vital role" as the "scary" country in Europe! (even though, based on history, it ought to be Germany...)
If people didn't worry about Russia, they might start worrying about why exactly there are still US bases in Europe and lots of other undesirable questions. The Georgia war was great for such people because it "proved" that Russia is aggressive. Lots and lots of strategists could start plotting how to deal with a similar situation in one of the Baltic States...
There is probably at least a million people in Europe who are making a living one way or another from the general paranoia about Russia. Not to mention companies etc.
Propaganda, silly or funny?
The Simpsons clip about Russia... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrqcUeTcmH4
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
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No, I'll rephrase the original Johanna's question the way I understood it:
Do you believe that Russia is a European or Asian country. (Just like that, without definitions, clarifications, elaborations, etc).
My answer was - neither (again - just a simple answer to a simple question).
Two possible responses to this, either:
1) Your answer is invalid since Russia is not a continent.
2) Your answer makes sense because the country is geographically split between two continents.
Option two places you in the same category as Turkey who is viewed with great suspicion by many Europeans, certainly the EU.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by BappaBa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа :) . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.
Кто-то мешает переключиться на РенТВ или Йэху Мацы, и насладиться чернухой? =)
Ящик я смотрю только на кухне (когда ем или готовлю), и только 2 канала: Euronews и Viassat History (в основном второй). Эхо в машине бывает слушаю, грешен, хотя политику радиостанции и не долюбливаю во многом. Но не Вести ФМ же слушать в конце концов! :lol:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
:beer: Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
We have an answer :tease:
Yury Grymov's "Stangers" about respectable american families =) http://www.chuzhiemovie.com/
http://s57.radikal.ru/i156/0812/c0/692740c2bde4.jpg
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Насчёт свободы - опять же, что вы называете свободой?
Вот, например, буддисты (если я не ошибаюсь) считают, что истинную свободу человек обретает, когда перестаёт желать. Человек должен освободиться от мирских желаний, страстей и т. п.
В этом плане западное общество является самым порабощённым. Они прикованы к своим вещам, деньгам и пр. ТАКИМИ оковами, что о свободе никакой речи не идёт. Россия сейчас идёт по тому же пути.
И о новостях: в последнее время я всё больше убеждаюсь, что сведения о действительно важных для меня событиях я могу почерпнуть из своего окружения - т.е. - из слухов. Если происходит что-то важное, то об этом начинают говорить люди, вот тогда я лезу на какой-нибудь малоизвестный новостной сайт и выясняю подробности.
Таким образом я избавляюсь от кучи "мусорной" информации, которая не засоряет мой мозг. Пропущенная через множество "фильтров" информация сохраняет лишь ключевые слова, по которой можно обратиться к поисковику. Остальные комментарии и рассуждения про то, что "демократическая общественность опять в шоке" остаются в головах тех, кто смотрит новости.
Может быть смешно, но слухи становятся более достоверным источником информации, чем зомбоящик.
А в машине я слушаю "Наше радио".
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
В этом плане западное общество является самым порабощённым. Они прикованы к своим вещам, деньгам и пр. ТАКИМИ оковами, что о свободе никакой речи не идёт. Россия сейчас идёт по тому же пути.
Yes, this is true. But now Russians are just as materialistic! Right?
Or do you think you personally are less materialistic because of the old socialist ideals from your childhood?
There must be something very tragic about growing up as a child with the ideals of socialism (solidarity, friendship, equality ETC) and then just when you become an adult, the whole thing is dropped! "Welcome to adult life and the capitalism; your money is worth nothing and your ideals are dead! Have a Coca Cola!"
:sorry:
I think this might have happened to some people on this forum? (My country changed its views a lot, and became much more commercially oriented. But the change was nowhere near as extreme as Russia. But I got disillusioned anyway.)
I will watch this! Look out for my review :mosking:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Your answer makes sense because the country is geographically split between two continents.
Option two places you in the same category as Turkey who is viewed with great suspicion by many Europeans, certainly the EU.
Unlike Turkey, which annexed a small part of European continent, all Russian lands in Asia are some sort of colonies. Until XVI century Russia hadn't any Asian lands and the story of conquering Siberia reminds me strongly about Cortés and Pizarro cases:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermak
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ермак_Тимофеевич
And Middle Asia and Caucasus were annexed much later, in XIX century.
BTW, what do you think about Denmark in this context since 95% of it's territory (Greenland) is outside of European continent either? :wink:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.
I'm not trying to say that Russia is typically asian, I only try to say that it's more Asian than France, for example. And from the other hand it's more European than Turkey (or Georgia for that matter). The correct term will be 'Eurasian'. This word reflects the real position of Russia among the world's cultures.
We're not Asians by all means, but we're not Europeans either.
Wow, bottomless abyss. I'm glad I don't see that otherwise I wouldn't be studying Russian.
How is the abyss between Russian and China?
How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)
Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)
Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.
Ramil, talking about Mongols.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)
Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.
Ramil, talking about Mongols.
Hehe :) Then no more questions, just remember that Ramil, as far as I know, not a serious scientist in the field of ethnography and anthropology, so I wouldn't take too serious his allegations in that field :) .
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Hehe :) Then no more questions, just remember that Ramil, as far as I know, not a serious scientist in the field of ethnography and anthropology, so I wouldn't take too serious his allegations in that field :) .
LOL
If you happen to look what I wrote about the Mongols and also the context... :roll:
Nobody reads my posts it appears... :(
Here, I'll help you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
How is the abyss between Russian and China?
I'd say, gigantic.
But my point of view is European, Muscovite. I know that there are a lot of the Chinese in the Far East of Russia. I have never been there.
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
я смотрю ... Euronews ...
Тогда мне вообще удивительно слышать эти претензии к нашим новостям. По Евроньюз Обамку пиарят покруче, чем ВВП по Первому. =)
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
If you happen to look what I wrote about the Mongols and also the context... :roll:
Nobody reads my posts it appears... :(
Here, I'll help you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.
Ramil, sorry, I didn't mean to insult you by any means. :beer: I'v read this exact post and agree with you that this statement takes place. I was thinking that sperk meant some other post. :upset:
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Re: Ukraine Elections 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by BappaBa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
я смотрю ... Euronews ...
Тогда мне вообще удивительно слышать эти претензии к нашим новостям. По Евроньюз Обамку пиарят покруче, чем ВВП по Первому. =)
А причём тут Обамка? Мне на него вообще плюнуть и растереть. Меня в новостях интересуют факты и только, причём факты об основных значимых событиях у нас в стране и в мире. Извиняюсь, но мне не интересно смотреть, как Путин передал какой-то там областной больнице десять новых автомобилей скорой помощи, а Медведев провёл очередное совещание с руководителями санэпидемслужбы Мухосранского района.
