Thread: Russ/Georgian Conflict subtitled Интервью́ c Ковалёвым

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MeUPAy ... re=related

Many thanks, DDT, to you and to Mr Kovalev for the evidence that there is no "totalitarian regime" in Russia (of which existence Kovalev and other "human rights activists" try to convince us all the time). As you all can see, Mr Kovalev is free and safe which would never happen under a totalitarian regime.

By the way, the translation of his speech is biassed. Kovalev says pro-Georgian and anti-Russian things as it is, but the translation makes them even more pro-Georgian and anti-Russian.

What I remember about Kovalev is that during the first Chechen war when the fisrt storm of Grozny failed, Kovalev arrived at the battlefield and asked the federal soldiers (very young boys) to give up. He promised them that in a case they gave up, Chechens would let them go to their parents. However, when the soldiers believed him and came out, the Chechens had them their ears cut off, and chopped off the heads, beat them and torchered them and so on.

Originally Posted by Оля

By the way, the translation of his speech is biased. Kovalev says pro-Georgian and anti-Russian things as it is, but the translation makes them even more pro-Georgian and anti-Russian.

And Putin and Medvedev outright lie on the Russian Television news and newspapers and so do history programs on Russian television. I have watched it all. I have seen demonstrators and protesters arrested by the hundresds in St petersburg with little TV News coverage. So who are we to believe?
I have listened to the constant blaming of "the West and USA" by Putin for Russia's problems. Most of it outright lies. Russians are being manipulated, most obviously, by the Kremlin these days. I notice this because i have lived in both places.

I can't believe the mainstream Russian media is still quoting that 1500 South Ossetian civilians died. Everyone now knows those figures are false.


http://www.rian.ru/osetia/20081219/157622193.html. That's just from a few days ago, and they're still adding at the end their token paragraph:

"Грузинские войска практически полностью разрушили Цхинвали и многие населенные пункты, убив, по данным югоосетинских властей, более полутора тысяч мирных жителей. В Тбилиси также планировали массированную агрессию в отношении Абхазии."

Even the Russian Procurator's Office is investigating only 365 deaths, yet Russia's main news agency is blatantly using the dubious initial claims which were blown ridiculously out of proportion. That kind of propaganda makes Fox News look like Reuters!

Originally Posted by DDT

and so do history programs on Russian television.

How do you know if history programs lie or not? Did you live then and there? Or do you think only American view on history is infallible?
What Saakashvili says about Russian "occupation" in XIX century, is totally cr@p.

I have listened to the constant blaming of "the West and USA" by Putin for Russia's problems.

How strange. I never heard anything like that from him.
If you mean the crisis, the whole world knows that it came from the USA.

Russians are being manipulated, most obviously, by the Kremlin these days. I notice this because i have lived in both places.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how a tourist could "notice" that "Russians are being manipulated". You must have been living here for several years, eh?

Well I'm not a tourist...but even a tourist would notice!
All of Russian talk shows are biased too! Putin basically OWNS Первый Канал, or haven't you bothered to read the news. Putin has been making it increasingly obvious that there is an agenda to turn average Russians against the US and the West in general, though media outlets since I arrived in Russia over a year ago. It will be only a matter of time before American's general safety will be at risk simply by being a foreigner in Russia.

If you haven't noticed these things mentioned in other post, then I must worry about your reasoning abilities. You are subtly being manipulated, be careful.

I find it interesting how every Russian I meet has something to say or has thoughts about about USA daily, usually negative, while the thought of Russia never even enters into American's heads.

Lets's not forget that there are about 6,000 ex KGB officers still working in the Russian government!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1 ... 373306.htm


Ion Mihai Pacepa, former acting chief of Communist Romania’s espionage service. In 1987 he published Red Horizons. In 1999 The Black Securitate.
He is now finishing a book on the origins of current anti-Americanism. As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take direct orders from the Soviet KGB, is obviously armed with a wealth of information.

Pacepa: It certainly is. In the last dozen years, Russia has been transformed for the better in unprecedented ways. Nevertheless, that country has a long way to go until it will tear down the legacy of Soviet Communism. As of June 2003, some 6,000 former KGB officers were reportedly holding important positions in Russia’s central and regional governments. Three months later, nearly half of the top governmental positions were also held by former KGB. It is like putting the old, supposedly defeated Gestapo in charge of rebuilding Germany.

Originally Posted by DDT

All of Russian talk shows are biased too! Putin basically OWNS Первый Канал, or haven't you bothered to read the news.

I don't watch any talk shows, and as for Первый Канал, I only watch programs like КВН or Что? Где? Когда? And I usually do not read the news. Only sometimes on the Internet. I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.

Putin has been making it increasingly obvious that there is an agenda to turn average Russians against the US and the West in general

That's nonsense.

It will be only a matter of time before American's general safety will be at risk simply by being a foreigner in Russia.

I am sorry, DDT, but you sound really stupid. I don't know with who you contact in Russia, but it's obviously that you don't even suspect that there are many very different Russians in Russia. And not everyone of them thinks of America, by the way.
And FYI, Moscow and Petersbourg is not the whole Russia.

I find it interesting how every Russian I meet has something to say or has thoughts about about USA daily, usually negative

Yes. That's true. But this situation began after the Caucasian conflict. That's because we have completely different view on it. And please don't think there are only "white" and "black" sides. Mr. Kovalev lies at least because he didn't mention the fifth scumbag: Bush. Americans never cared about Ossetians' lifes. Like they are not people, like their children are not children, like sitting in basements without water and food is okay if you're separatists. Do you know that Bush WANTED Russian troops to enter Tbilisi? He didn't care about Russian or Georgian lifes, he only wanted Moscow to look bad. When Sarkozy was going to fly to Moscow, Bush called him and said "There is no needed to fly there [for truce talks]. We just need to denounce them". Sarkozy told that himself at a press conference, I heard that with my own ears.

Kovalev mentioned Gamsakhurdia who "protected" Georgians in Abkhazia. Do you know that Gamsakhurdia's slogan was "Georgia for Georgians!" He was a violent nationalist and he was the first who caused Ossetians to quarrel with Georgians. Do you know what Georgians did to Ossetians (and maybe vice versa) in 199xx? They buried them alive, they made them gulp down their teeth. Do you really think people can forget it? That they can forget those days in August? Do you really think these nations can live together?

while the thought of Russia never even enters into American's heads

I actually don't think so.

Originally Posted by basurero

I can't believe the mainstream Russian media is still quoting that 1500 South Ossetian civilians died. Everyone now knows those figures are false.

Думаю, что если бы ты посидел недельку в Цхинвале под обстрелом или просто побывал бы в нём, то не мог бы поверить, что жертв меньше полутора тысяч.

Originally Posted by Оля

I am sorry, ..., but you sound really stupid.

Нда... Аre you really, really sure you are sorry?

Originally Posted by Оля

while the thought of Russia never even enters into American's heads

I actually don't think so.

Would you believe me that it doesn't, ever... even if you don't think so?

You are subtly being manipulated, be careful.

Lets's not forget that there are about 6,000 ex KGB officers still working in the Russian government!

lol... you are the one that is being manipulated.
You see, the fact that you say those things about KGB officers simply perfectly proves that. There is nothing wrong with KGB officers being in the government. But american propaganda during cold war made you think that kgb is something comparable to .. i don't know... like Sauron's nazguls from Lord of the Rings.

Originally Posted by Waterlaz

You are subtly being manipulated, be careful.

[quote:3c1no2q4]Lets's not forget that there are about 6,000 ex KGB officers still working in the Russian government!

lol... you are the one that is being manipulated. ...[/quote:3c1no2q4]
People, would it be possible please that you've added "IMHO" or "IMO" or "I think" to some of your statements? I think then they would sound a little less offensive. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Lampada

I actually don't think so.

Would you believe me that it doesn't, ever... even if you don't think so?

Что "doesn't"? Что средний американец не думает о России?
Вообще-то я не стала продолжать свою мысль, потому что мне было трудно написать это по-английски. Могу по-русски, пожалуйста:
Я недавно пообщалась с парочкой американцев в чате на одном из сайтов по изучению языков (не только русского, но всех вообще, самых разных). Так вот, разговор переходил на политику и на обсуждение России после буквально нескольких приветственных слов (привет + как тебя зовут). Один из них мне сказал, что чуть ли не у каждого американца сейчас на уме недавний конфликт на Кавказе. Он мне твердил как зомби, что Украина и Грузия "сами вправе решать, хотят ли они в НАТО". Прям такой наивный, и правда думает, что эти страны хотят в НАТО, а США стоит в сторонке и никакого вообще отношения к этому не имеет. Ему даже в голову не приходит, что это Саакашвили и Ющенко хотят в НАТО, и еще США хотят их там видеть, а вовсе не народы этих стран (про Грузию не могу сказать точно, - если и слышала цифры, то давно и плохо помню - а вот 80% Украины туда не хочет). Он как заведенный повторял, что Грузия вправе делать, что угодно на своей территории, и ему в голову не приходило пожалеть об убитых осетинах в Цхинвале, о заживо сгоревших в машинах семьях, о молодых девчонках, застреленных снайперами. Кстати, этот человек голосовал за Обаму. А потом я пообщалась с другим, и он тоже говорил о России, и оказался на удивление гораздо более адекватным, притом, что голосовал за МакКейна. Это к вопросу о нашей, русской точки зрения на выборы в США.

Нда... Аre you really, really sure you are sorry?

Лампада, я не знаю, может у наших стран и у наших народов слишком большие культурные различия, может, с американской точки зрения это ультра-супер-пупер-запредельно неполикорректно, но тут уж ничего не поделаешь - такие мы разные. Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию из-за того, что "Путин с экрана нас против них настраивает" - это реально ГЛУПО.

Originally Posted by Оля

Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию - это реально ГЛУПО.

Да-да. Присоединяюсь к Оле. DDT живёт стереотипами, хоть и в России. Наверное, повёлся с плохими мальчиками.

Originally Posted by Оля

... Один из них мне сказал, что чуть ли не у каждого американца сейчас на уме недавний конфликт на Кавказе.

Может быть, и только потому что многие американцы представления не имели, что в России тоже есть Georgia и решили, что русские напали на их штат Georgia. Здесь было много шуток в связи с этой путаницей.

Originally Posted by Оля

Нда... Аre you really, really sure you are sorry?

Лампада, я не знаю, может у наших стран и у наших народов слишком большие культурные различия, может, с американской точки зрения это ультра-супер-пупер-запредельно неполикорректно, но тут уж ничего не поделаешь - такие мы разные. ...

Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?

Originally Posted by Оля

... Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию - это реально ГЛУПО.

Здесь тоже можно было бы употребить более приемлемые слова, например, можно было бы сказать это несомненно ошибочно или это сильное заблуждение. Я думаю, что это не сделало бы твои доводы менее убедительными.

Originally Posted by basurero

I can't believe the mainstream Russian media is still quoting that 1500 South Ossetian civilians died. Everyone now knows those figures are false.

What everyone really knows is that the Russian law system is too unskillful to provide any evidence of the fact.

These sorts of debates always get polarised until two sides are yelling equally silly slogans at each other.

Of course Putin is using the media to manipulate public opinion. And so does Bush, and so does Brown, and so does every other political figure on the planet. The vast majority of people (in whatever country) accept more or less uncritically what they see on TV or read in the papers regardless of how clumsy and obvious the agenda might be, even more so if the issue doesn't particularly interest them or affect them directly, so politicians would be incredibly stupid not to use the media to manipulate public opinion.

And of course there is an anti-western bias on Russian TV, just as there is an anti-Russian (or, more specifically, anti-Putin) bias in the western media. If you want an example I'll avoid going for an easy target like Fox news and instead use the good old BBC: anyone who can find an article on the BBC site concerning Anna Politkovskaya that doesn't contain a paragraph starting with the sentence "Politkovskaya, a [fierce] critic of Vladimir Putin, was murdered..." wins a cookie, and a bonus point if you can find one that lists any realistic suspects. There might be one or two out of the hundreds of articles written about her, but if there is I've never seen them. The BBC have never directly suggested that Putin was personally implicated in her murder (and they wouldn't do that, because no one else has ever suggested it including Politkovskaya's supporters and family), but that doesn't matter because the drip-drip-drip of this sort of guilt-by-innuendo means that most people I speak to have simply joined the dots up themselves and are completely satisfied that Putin ordered the hit, no question. And exactly the same thing goes for the reporting on Perviy Kanal, only the other way around. You should hear some of the nonsense I get asked when I'm in Russia. It's every bit as silly as the nonsense my missus gets asked in the UK.

Now, there's an argument to had about who initiated the current antagonism and hostility between Russia and the Anglophone Alliance, what each side has to gain from it, and how each side pulls the media levers in order to get their populations on-side, but to deny that it exists at all is, to me, ludicrous.

Anyhoo, speaking of media manipulation, I'll tell you what made me laugh during the war in August: Saakashvili's PR people who were wheeled out to be interviewed by western TV stations. The reason I found them so funny was that they'd clearly been educated and prepped in the US and taught to push all the buttons that US networks and viewers would respond to (you know, repeating "freedom" and "democracy" and "KGB" and other jingoisms over and over again without ever actually saying anything), and the Georgian government had clearly made the same mistake that a lot of ad agencies make in assuming that just because we share the same language as the Americans that the same shtick would work on UK news shows. But of course it doesn't, the whole tone of UK news broadcasting is completely different from anything in the US, and they just ended up looking ridiculous and completely out-of-place. In fact Saakashvili himself was interviewed on Channel4 and Jon Snow made him look like a raving lunatic. Then about five minutes later he interviewed Lavrov, and he had clearly been watching the earlier interview because he couldn't keep a straight face for the first minute or so.

[quote=Юрка][quote="Оля":3tshgwuk]Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию - это реально ГЛУПО.[/quote]Да-да. Присоединяюсь к Оле. DDT живёт стереотипами, хоть и в России. Наверное, повёлся с плохими мальчиками. [/quote:3tshgwuk]
Не скоро, а уже. И не из-за Путина, а из-за нас, россиян, добрейшей души людях.

[url="http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/342801.html"]http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/342801.html[/url]

http://www.newsru.com/russia/02feb2008/voro.html

http://steer.ru/archives/2008/12/22/007748.php

http://www.rg.ru/2006/01/25/izbienie-in ... anons.html

Так что "ГЛУПО", об этом молчать.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?

Лампада, ЧТО С ТОБОЙ??
DDT мне вообще написал "I must worry about your reasoning abilities" - этого ты не заметила? Мне-то даже "сорри" не сказали. А я написала "извини, но это звучит глупо / то, что ты говоришь, звучит глупо / ты говоришь глупости" (не знаю, как точнее на русский перевести, но это уж точно не то же самое, что "ты глупый") - и ЭТО кажется тебе оскорблением?
DDT пишет "You are subtly being manipulated, be careful" - ты ничего не замечаешь (я, впрочем, тоже не вижу ничего криминального в этой фразе), а когда Waterlaz ему отвечает "lol... you are the one that is being manipulated. ..." - ты пишешь свое модераторское замечание.

И да, в России допустимо в дискуссии с улыбкой говорить человеку (кстати, причем тут "малознакомому"?): "извините, но это же просто глупо!". И уж ТОЧНО в России ГОРАЗДО грубее будет звучать "если вы не согласны с тем, что я сказал, мне придется усомниться в ваших умственных способностях".

Originally Posted by Оля

... Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию - это реально ГЛУПО.

Здесь тоже можно было бы употребить более приемлемые слова, например, можно было бы сказать это несомненно ошибочно или это сильное заблуждение. Я думаю, что это не сделало бы твои доводы менее убедительными.

Ну, во-первых, сделало бы.
Во-вторых, я повторяю, может, мы, русские, совершенно невоспитанные, но когда мы хотим сказать "извини, но это глупо", мы говорим "извини, но это глупо", а не те фразы, которые ты предложила. Они вообще-то звучат очень книжно, я не представляю, чтобы кто-то их употребил в хоть мало-мальски эмоциональной дискуссии.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Не скоро, а уже. И не из-за Путина, а из-за нас, россиян, добрейшей души людях.

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/342801.html

http://www.newsru.com/russia/02feb2008/voro.html

http://steer.ru/archives/2008/12/22/007748.php

http://www.rg.ru/2006/01/25/izbienie-in ... anons.html

Так что "ГЛУПО", об этом молчать.

Это не имеет никакого отношения к американцам, Путину и политике вообще. Это нападения на расовой почве. Не надо мешать все в одну кучу. Еще скажите, что Путин расист и призывает нас мочить индийцев, негров, таджиков и т.д.