(Spin off from http://masterrussian.net/f16/elections-belarus-17265/ )
:lol: +1 I remember the time of my childhood in the USSR as the happiest time in my life.
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(Spin off from http://masterrussian.net/f16/elections-belarus-17265/ )
:lol: +1 I remember the time of my childhood in the USSR as the happiest time in my life.
If it was so great why did you give it up?
IMHO.... they just didn't know what was coming and everyone got swept away... It happened too fast. Nobody had time to think things through.
In 1991, hardly anyone in Eastern Europe knew how capitalism worked and there were plenty of people and organisations that were just waiting for an opportunity to take advantage of that. First Western Europeans, then Americans, then local people. Outside of the USSR, I think many Eastern Europeans imagined that if communism was gone, then they'd soon be rich and their daily problems would be gone. 20 years later they have not caught up and Western capitalism is in crisis.
I realise that I am out of my depth commenting on this..... but I think it might have been better (for the majority) to continue with Gorbatjov's reforms at a reasonable pace. Allow people to get used to market pricing and democracy before introducing big changes. Sell off property that needed to be sold in a controlled manner, after first establishing what the actual value was. Maybe have referendums about which republics wanted to stay in the USSR, or leave. Some of the USSR republics had economies that could not viably function in separation. Allow people to leave the country who didn't want to wait for gradual reforms.
But of course - it's easy to be wise in hindsight! And what I think is irrelevant. What would have been relevant would have been what the people directly affected thought, and what they wanted... But there was no tradition in the USSR of consulting the people. Maybe there was no really good solution.
At least it was a revolution in which hardly anyone got killed.
The comments from this film (Die Stille Nach dem Schuss) about that period are pretty good - just the first bit .YouTube
Actually there was a referendum on the future of the Soviet Union in 1991. The question was whether people want to preserve Soviet Union (a slightly improved version) or not.
The answer was "Yes" - from 70% up to 96% of people in 9 republicks voted for preserving USSR. The highest results were in Asian republicks.
Detailed results:
Soviet Union referendum, 1991 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The people's will was ignored which violated Soviet (and probably any other) Constitution.
Well if the capitalism thing is not working out for them. Apparently was great before (in USSR times). Maybe they should consider dropping capitalism elements and go back to a collective arrangment. Each to his own capability an such, workers paradise etc. Also it would be nice if China would do the same. Everybody wins then. East is in paradise...West in paradise. After all you dont want to subject your children to the grim realities of capitalism right. You should "DO IT" for your children. A new revolution throw those capitalist out.
Even more of a reason. They need to be rescued. What are you waiting for?Quote:
The people's will was ignored which violated Soviet (and probably any other) Constitution.
Nobody asked us...
In fact, they did ask, but then ignored us anyway.
The reality had not revealed itself until after several years of 'wild' capitalism. By the time people realized what had happenned, it was already too late. USSR had been disbanded, the state property was quicklyQuote:
Originally Posted by Nerms
soldstolen by the old Comsomol and party leaders and then every republic went its own way. There're still many people who regret that. Surprisingly there are young people among them as well. Even them, who'd been born after 1991.
USSR had its faults and there were many, but it was nothing compared to the nineties. And today, we surprisingly have nearly all these 'faults of the USSR' I mentioned and some new ones which are even worse.
Who ignored you? If all of you want to get together what can stop you? If its Soros or the US just ban them from your country. Do you wait for the future to come to you or do you grab for it. I encourage the workers in your countries to unite. Dont you want your childeren to have a better future?
First, your sarcasm is not funny.
Second, you can't bring time back. One of the best things in the USSR was a peculiar outlook on life, which will be impossible to recreate. Kids were allowed to be kids, that's why many people remember their Soviet childhood as a happy time.
And third, the struggle to reunite will lead to economical hardships, political chaos and social turmoil. We had enough of this cr@p already. 90's effectively ruined 10 years of my life, so personally I'm done with revolutions.
Putin tried something vaguely like that... Not sure what prompted it or what the reasons were. I think he kicked out... BP?? and some oligarchs... and put some restrictions on missionary activity. But what would that change now?
And even if they are banned, they can still fund people who work for their agenda, use media broadcasts from abroad etc, etc...
That is precisely the sort of things that that the CIA engages in.
And when Putin started doing that, incidentally, was the exact same time that all the talk about "Evil empire is back" and "Human rights abuse in Russia" started, at least in Western Europe.
When it was a free-for-all cowboy capitalism and people were getting shot on the street, and couldn't afford to pay for food.. then "democracy" in Russia was great....
I want to make a suggestion to our kind moderator. :) When topics are split in two for any reason it can be useful to post a link to the original discussion in the first post.
Otherwise the first post in a new thread (in this case Ramil's +1) seems strange.
If one drives 50km in the wrong direction (capitalism), it makes no sense to continue to drive in the wrong direction. You turn the car around and drive back to where you made your mistake. Continuing to drive in the wrong direction only makes it harder to fix the situation.
If its an issue of disruption...then say every 5 years change over 25% of your economy to a non-capitalist system. Throwing out all elements of capitalism of those 25% ecomonic elements. You should be back where you started in 20 years. Back to the workers paradise over what you have now which is a capitalist hell hole. If 25% is to much make it 10%. Things should get better as you go as well. I dont understand why if everyone wants to do this it doesnt happen?
IMHO, because there was no "workers paradise". I think warm memories from childhood have nothing to do with the real economic situation. People had to work hard for laughable money, but what was the worst was that there was no force to protect their interests, the trade unions were completely pro-governmental, and the second thing, sometimes even having plenty of money, one couldn't get what they wanted through official stores, they had to search for other ways around, sometimes illegal, and take the risk of being tricked or even detained by the soviet police...
Park 100 tanks at there door step. They will give it back. They will be happy to escape alive. Its your (Goverment) property after all. The alternative is to keep waiting. Its only going to get harder to fix.Quote:
Because the ones who grabbed the national property are no way going to give it back.
Actually the problem was that you did NOT have to work hard at all. You could be the worst worker ever, and you'd still get the same payment as everyone else, because such was the law. There was almost zero chance to get fired too.
It demotivated those who could work better (why bother if you still get your money despite your poor performance?), and it was one of the reasons Soviet economy was in trouble. Too many slackers.
This also sends a message to all the capitalists. I bet they will all run away and abandon all the national property if you do this.
Guys, Eric in particular; where are you getting this silly terminology from? Nobody here has claimed that modern Belarus or the USSR were a "paradise". (Quotes are supposed to indicate something that somebody has actually said.) No leader of any socialist country made such claims. They knew that they had a very long way to go. I agree with Gromozeka - if this is supposed to be irony, then you are hitting the wrong note. If you are really interested in such things, then read some Marx or Weber and get the terminology right! Otherwise I suggest you pass completely.
The idea of simply rolling back time and bringing the USSR, or even socialism back, is not realistic.
The most important thing is that people in Russia and the CIS countries get governments that are not corrupt and work to improve things for the population as a whole. The ideology is irrelevant, it's the results that count and there is no easy answer or solution. Anyway, the problem is common across the world.
Unfortunately in the world at large, things are moving in the exact opposite direction. Capitalism (large corporations, banks, media empire, defense industry) is getting increasingly greedy, corrupt and aggressive across the world and regular people are just pawns, at best. Traditional socialism never adapted itself to counteract modern capitalism. Socialism was "beaten" because it's opponent, capitalism, was more adaptive and more ruthless.
I got it from Basil. He used the terminology "workers paradise" Look back at his replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
"socialist paradise", "workers paradise". ...Where are you getting this silly terminology from?
"beaten" hardly. According to the posts it was going strong until everyone got caught by surprise(for 5 years) by some mysterious force. Everyone was pretty happy and doing well. According to Ramil was better then today. So they are worse off now. I am trying to facilitate a return to the happy days. But i am finding this harder then leading a horse to water. They simply wont do it. They have 9 million excuses. You are going in the wrong direction. I advise you turn around.Quote:
Socialism was "beaten" because it's opponent, capitalism, was more adaptive and more ruthless
Absolutely right. If they needed some kind of difficult surgery which would cost over $100,000 or even more, they could only get the money and get transferred to one of the countries of Western Europe or the US... Honestly, I don't understand why there're so many people who are dissatisfied with medical insurance system. You work, you carry insurance, you're protected from almost every disease that can be cured. That seems to be the best system ever...
Actually, they did. They had free healthcare, they could spend 24 days a year on some resort (for free also), people who worked in the north could have even more free days. Children went to school for free, and students even received stipendiums. There was nearly 100% employment. A ride in public transport cost 3-5 kopecks (less than $0.01 by the black market rouble rate). I'd call this rather fair dividends. In fact they received even more than the state could afford in its latter years.
Actually I said that modern Belorussia looks more like "socialist paradise" than "commie hell" as Eric called it. Calling it "hell" is completely retarded, it's not Khmer Rouge regime or North Korea. And the problem in modern Russia is not capitalism itself, but the way it works here. The current owners of most plants and factories don't manage them effectively because they still doesn't feel it's rightfully theirs. They try to make as much money as possible today and transfer it to foreign accounts, they don't invest a kopeck in industry because they still feel it could be taken from them.
This is the quote where it started. Ill let it speak for itself.Quote:
Eric, have you ever been there, little hater? "Commie hell" is only in your wet dreams. "Socialist paradise" as say from my impressions .
I say again go back. You are driving in the wrong direction. The US is circling the toliet bowl. Now is the perfect time to rise up and take back your country.
If you ask me, I don't mind at all. Especially if we could avoid some of the mistakes the soviets had made in the process. The problem is -- how to do that? We can't just assemble and wish our government surrender their power. ))) Yes, 70% of Russian population is poor, but nealy 90% of Russian industrial and natural resources are owned by 10% of population. Nationalization of private property is a very bad method of starting the new government. Russia had to go through a bloody civil war because of that same decision. If you're so smart, then, perhaps, you know how to accomplish what you are suggesting without bloodshed?
By the way, I called a private medical insurance company (get the insurance from work) for the first time of my life a couple of days ago. What a revolting experience! Feel so sorry for Americans to have to put up with that.
I was so put off by the experience that I decided to use the NHS (state healthcare) after all for this checkup. I keep meaning to use this private insurance but it never seems to make any sense.
@Nerms -- So are you actually saying you are a communist and you are in favour of a workers revolution against the capital? Hmmm..... Well, good for you ;-)Quote:
Now is the perfect time to rise up and take back your country.
If this is true... please start at home!
That's the "heart" of world capitalism... if you can topple the head of the snake then the rest of the world would follow quickly...And thanks to the Russian experiment you'd have a pretty good idea of some things NOT to do... (and some things which were good and can be used again).
But why worry about Russia when your own country is the most aggressively imperialist & capitalist country on earth? In which millions cannot get decent healthcare or a job and where the government is effectively in the hands of corporate lobbyists, where aggressive wars are started on a regular basis and tax payers money are used to bail out banks and pay the bankers bonus..
So, my dear comrade.. Start the revolutionary struggle on your own side of the Atlantic first..
OMG, what have we reduced to??? =))
Seriously, Hanna, I don't think he's a commie, he's more likely just joking... "revolution against the capital" ? hahaha, that's like a revolution against food, water, air, sure why not, filthy capitalists use them and hide much of that from their poor citizens, but we commies don't even need that at all!!! *LOL*
I never claimed to be so smart. I gave you a solution above. 5 year plan 10-25% of economy at a time. This gives people a chance to leave without bloodshed....for the most part. The Russians took down some oligarches without bloodshed. Why not for the whole economy. It does not appear to me to be impossible or that hard.Quote:
If you're so smart, then, perhaps, you know how to accomplish what you are suggesting without bloodshed?
@Hanna You sure your not a CIA spy? I suppose if you are one its not likely you would admit to it. I am trying to understand why if things were so good before (as stated many times) they wont go back to it. Basically it appears they are shy about trying. I am trying to give them some courage.Quote:
@Nerms -- So are you actually saying you are a communist and you are in favour of a workers revolution against the capital? Hmmm..... Well, good for you
If this is true... please start at home!
BTW Hanna you are working in a country that owns a good deal of the US businesses. So you are enabling the US to continue to do what it does. I would go so far as to say you are profitting from it. Also the argument is not about the US. The heading of this discussion is old soviet union vs new soviet union. Which is what i am arguing about.
New soviet union? What is this? Maybe you mean something like that :-):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FpD...eature=related
Sorry, couldn't find better quality.
But if seriously, I agree with Putin's saying: "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain".
Hmm, why no brain? Are things not worse now, under grim capitalism.