Thread: Russia in EU

Originally Posted by begemot

Look at it this way. The world is dividing into huge economic blocks--NAFTA, the EU, China may become the center of an Asian block--will Russia be able to compete standing outside of those, or build its own with countries of the former Soviet Union?

True. Another way of putting it is Hunnington's "Clash of Civilizations", where the world is divided geo-politically along cultural lines. According to Hunnington, Russia stands at the center of the Orthodox bloc, which comprises Greece, Serbia, and the former Soviet republics.

This is also supported by the Russian geo-political thinker Alexander Dugin, who sees Russia at the center of the Eurasian bloc(Russia, China, and the Middle East) to counter the Atlantic bloc(mainly US and UK but also Western Europe).

Originally Posted by Jasper May

Oops, btw, I noticed you said 'world power'. I mentioned nothing of the sort. Of course world power is based on military might.

But world power isn't based on just military might; there's cultural and economic influences. This all relates to terms like 'hegemony' and whatever else social theorists think up.

Anyways, on the original point of the post, it wouldn't make sense for Russia to join the EU. For starters, there's the geographical issue: most of the country ain't even in Europe! Even the 'European-es' of the areas closest to Europe is debatable.

The very term 'European' is dodgey because it's extent, culturally and geographically, is questionable. The very definition of 'Europe' should be carefully considered and, if countries like Russia or Turkey were admitted to the EU, would need to be redefined.

I mean, one time, places like Russia and Asia Minor were what defined Europe because they were the 'others', outside of Europe and 'European-es'.

The point I guess I'm trying to make here is that Europe won't be, well, 'Europe', if places that are not traditionally European join it politically, economically, etc.

PS- Don't say that Russia is European, 'cause I don't think it really is; it's similar, but is too unique to be given that label.

Originally Posted by Czar Nicholas

Originally Posted by begemot

Look at it this way. The world is dividing into huge economic blocks--NAFTA, the EU, China may become the center of an Asian block--will Russia be able to compete standing outside of those, or build its own with countries of the former Soviet Union?

True. Another way of putting it is Hunnington's "Clash of Civilizations", where the world is divided geo-politically along cultural lines. According to Hunnington, Russia stands at the center of the Orthodox bloc, which comprises Greece, Serbia, and the former Soviet republics.

This is also supported by the Russian geo-political thinker Alexander Dugin, who sees Russia at the center of the Eurasian bloc(Russia, China, and the Middle East) to counter the Atlantic bloc(mainly US and UK but also Western Europe).

Huntington's "Clash of Civilisations" is pretty interesting. Isn't one of his main theories that the new power of the East, Islam, will inevitably come into conflict with the West?

It's a theory that is, obviously, abused by people trying to assert that fundamentalist terrorism represents all Arab countries and that, thus, Islamic nations are a great threat to Western civilisation.

Originally Posted by Czar Nicholas

LOL! Then please explain to me why NATO still exists, considering that the Cold War is over?

NATO's still around because it's a useful facit for cooperation between nations. I know that sounds a little naive but, still, it's a great way to keep good relations between different European nations and the US.

It's great for internal European security as well. Who went in to sort out the rubbish that Sloba-wats-his-named guy was causing? NATO did.

If anyone thinks that NATO is around to 'keep Russia at bay', then they're paranoid. Russia's in no shape to be a problem to Europe, not mentioning the fact they have no reason to be a problem.

Originally Posted by begemot

I've learned some new things in this forum. The US is weak economically compared to China? Russia the largest economy in the world?

First, I didn't say anything about Russia. Second - I told about the "real" economy. The simple example: I give you a buck for cleaning my shoes. The GDP is growing for $1. Then I clean your shoes and you give me $1. The GDP is growing for another $1. We both did nothing real but GDP has grown for $2. Do you get what I mean? Let's look in the CIA world factbook, although they forget to wright there new data:
USA
GDP $10.45 trillion (2002 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 2%
industry: 18%
services: 80% (2002 est.)
Well, the real economic is only 20%, the 80% of it is like I said befor. So the "real" GDP is not $10,45 trillion but $2,09 trillion
China:
purchasing power parity - $5.989 trillion (2002 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 15.2%
industry and construction: 51.2%
services: 33.6% (2001)
The "real" economic is 66.4% so it means $3,98 trillon. The China 1,9 times more economically powerfull than US. It was in 2002. Now the gap is greater.

Don't confuse trends and potential with reality.

Don't apply the blind eye on the facts. The facts that CIA admits and published. Just think and analyse.

The US does have disturbing long term, structural economic problems with debt and trade deficits, but the fact is that growth in many other countries (especially China!) depend on robust US consumer demand.

BS. Well, not completely BS, especially US problems but that growth in China (especially!!ha-ha-ha) depends on US consumer demand. The USA is not the only one country in the world. There are India(GDP - $2.664 trillion), Russia(GDP - $1.409 trillion, and like Scorpio said the real GDP in 2-4 times larger), EU, etc. What can USA offer to whole the world? The answer is nothing material. China has almost destroied your economy. I read some months ago that in the USA was closed the last Lewi's jeans factory. They moved the factory on to China.

Right now, California alone has a much larger economy than Russia.

BS. It will be happened when California will launch its own spacecrafts. At least 4 times in a year.


...to be continued

Originally Posted by Alexi

Huntington's "Clash of Civilisations" is pretty interesting. Isn't one of his main theories that the new power of the East, Islam, will inevitably come into conflict with the West?

Yes thats true.

It's a theory that is, obviously, abused by people trying to assert that fundamentalist terrorism represents all Arab countries and that, thus, Islamic nations are a great threat to Western civilisation.

Indeed thats also true. The Islamic(or really Islamist) terrorists are adherents to a militant form of Islam known as Wahabbism. This creed is not the mainstay of Islamic throught, nor more than Evengelicalism is the mainstay of Christian thinking.

If anyone thinks that NATO is around to 'keep Russia at bay', then they're paranoid. Russia's in no shape to be a problem to Europe, not mentioning the fact they have no reason to be a problem.

I respectfully disagree. NATO indeed has an anti-Russian agenda and the fact that the allianc keeps incroaching further into the Russian sphere of influence(after they promised not to expand into Eastern Europe if the Warsaw Pact was disolved) is enough to prove or hint at it. Plus I remember one State Department spokesman a few years ago stating that NATO's main purpose was for gaining a geo-political advantage when negotiating with the Russians. Breszinski in his books on geo-politics calls on NATO to actively seek to weaken Russia's world-power status while Russia is still vulnerable because of the breakup of the USSR.

So yes I respectfully disagree. Russia indeed has a geniune right to be concerned about NATO, and I really wouldnt consider it paranoia.

JJ,

You can't take services and commerce out of modern economies. In fact, the larger the percentage of what you call the "real" economy is in a country's economy, the more likely it is to be in the third world.

Even within countries, you can see this by comparing cities. London is overwhelmingly service and commerce dependent, and it has flourished, while the industrial north has declined dramatically. Or compare New York and Boston to Detroit and Cleveland.

China has tremendous production capacity, but an underdeveloped consumer market. It therefore needs to export a lot to maintain its very high growth rates. If you look at the tables here http://www.chinatoday.com/trade/a.htm and these are Chinese figures, you see the US is by far China's largest export market.

Overall, Japan is China's largest trading partner, with the US and EU a close second and third. Trade between Russia and CHina is less than 10% of trade between CHina and the US.

Irrelevant and pathetic? Moi?

Beh. Sucky sucky.

Ooh, I am enjoying myself.

Oh, Jas-Jas, really, I expected better of you! Though I suppose it's more difficult to resist the urge if you're living in the Netherlands...

[quote="Jasper May
Of course, I have smoked something I shouldn't.[/quote]

It works better if you eat it.

True, smartdude, but more dangerous too .. rather like drinking vodka instead of beer. Ah reminiscences .. bhang lassi, Jaipur, tunnel vision

hmmm

-> wax "80g down 220 to go" wing

There's no need to get into the EU for the Russian Federation.

YEAH!!!

I respectfully disagree. NATO indeed has an anti-Russian agenda and the fact that the allianc keeps incroaching further into the Russian sphere of influence(after they promised not to expand into Eastern Europe if the Warsaw Pact was disolved) is enough to prove or hint at it. Plus I remember one State Department spokesman a few years ago stating that NATO's main purpose was for gaining a geo-political advantage when negotiating with the Russians. Breszinski in his books on geo-politics calls on NATO to actively seek to weaken Russia's world-power status while Russia is still vulnerable because of the breakup of the USSR.

So yes I respectfully disagree. Russia indeed has a geniune right to be concerned about NATO, and I really wouldnt consider it paranoia.

I am with you entirely, although based on ALLOT of first hand experience with Russian weaponry, I wouldn't be that intimidated if they were to pick a fight. TBH, I trust Russia to keep their hands to themselves more then just about any UN country, except probably out-back countries like Norway, Switzerland etc. I think Russia has far more reason to be worried about the UN then the UN has to be worried about Russia.

The UN, or NATO?

Do try at least to keep your ingorances internally consistent. It would make it a lot (two words) easier for everyone else to follow your train of 'thought'.

What's all this comparising with the Nederlands all the time?...
As we all know there are only 2 things that annoys the world, People beeing intolerant of other peoples culture, and the Dutch!

Originally Posted by Zhenya

What's all this comparising with the Nederlands all the time?...
As we all know there are only 2 things that annoys the world, People beeing intolerant of other peoples culture, and the Dutch!

I'm not a great fan of my Dutch great-great grandfather, who was, as far as we can tell, a one of the landowners imported by the British to "tame" the locals, i.e. my other ancestors. Blegh. The rest of the Dutch are fine, I'm sure

What's all this comparising with the Nederlands all the time?...

Because the one making the comparisons was a Dutchman.

I am getting increasingly more frustrated with the Dutch. Really, each time I order tea in Holland I receive a smallish cup half-full of barely warm water and an array of tea bags. Horrid. And that once was the second tea-drinking nation in Western Europe (or the first, when fog would have "the Continent cut off").

Just a comment on security. If Russia ever joined the EU, which will never happen anyway, the EU would not be gaining security. Sure, they would the support to Russia's military force, but they would also be weakened in border security. Russia has the largest land border of any country in the world, and borders some unstable countries, with a lot of traffic back and forth. Under a visa free travel system in the EU with Russia included, the EU's security would be at a huge risk, as there would be so much more land to cover.

Anyway, if Russia ever join the EU, it should become the EAU.
Are they ready for name change?

Originally Posted by drew881

Russia has the largest land border of any country in the world, and borders some unstable countries, with a lot of traffic back and forth. Under a visa free travel system in the EU with Russia included, the EU's security would be at a huge risk, as there would be so much more land to cover.

What unstable countries? Or perhaps you think that the South European states, which border or simply are members of the EU now, are stable quiet countries? As well as some other countries who have visa-free travel treaties with the EU? Have you ever been to the EU and Russia? I guess no, or you would have noticed that the number of those coming from these unstable countries is orders of magnitude higher in the EU than in Russia.