Is Russia a democracy? Плюс то же о некоторых других странах

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Теория неуклонного прогресса и "одного пути" господствует на Западе (кстати, она является основой расизма).

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Dear Юрка, I've checked some of your recent posts over, and I would like to tell you if you could be a little bit more modest in your statements, maybe people would treat you with more attention. As in that particular example, where you've messed some unrelated things up.
Sorry, but tolerance to nonsense is definitely not a trait of my personality.

People were killing and abusing each other for ages without any idea of what racism was. But when they just took a few steps to the better world... and of course! — the western civilization became guilty of racism! Who cares the very same civilization defeated starvation and lots of deadly diseases, developed concepts of equality and human rights, made average human life two times longer... and gave you opportunity to write all your stuff here, by the way.
If you would really like to prefer another way, you are free to leave western way at any time, but do not forget to throw away your phone, synthetic cloths, any medicines and any other damned stuff.

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нет причин стесняться своей Родины и языка

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I agree with you absolutely, there isn't any reason of doing that. So why do you do?

Is Yurka a Communist/Marxist supporter? Even after translating, his posts make little sense.

RedFox, do you like Navalny? Do you really think he's a legitimate 'Opposition' candidate? Even after getting a 5 yr sentence and is released the next day? ;-)

Imho, the Putin regime, in a nutshell: 1) attempt to establish a EurAsian country (tons of migrants - have lots of non-European foreigners and promote Putin-based support, in other words: status quo); 2) 'Westernize' the country with similar brainwashing/indoctrination - but, have it according to the Kremlin's rules... 3) have their own version of a Police State; 4) special interest groups (who are NOT ethnic-Russian) are given considerable power despite their low % numbers of the population - as long as they tow the Kremlin line - they can all steal together.

"У России есть самодостаточность" - Что? Нет. Putin doesn't promote self-sufficiency. He does promote theft, though.

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Originally Posted by 14Russian

RedFox, do you like Navalny? Do you really think he's a legitimate 'Opposition' candidate? Even after getting a 5 yr sentence and is released the next day? ;-)

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Well, I can say, Navalny is not the president I'd like to see elected. Nor even the Major of Moscow or any other city.
But Navalny doing great job of bringing Real Democracy back to the Russian politics. And the word democracy means not only elections in that case, but dramatic change in people's minds.
Even if he were an alien from Mars, he would be helpful.
So... Do I really believe he is such a person as he states himself? Well, I do. I think he is an ordinary lawyer suddenly got into politics. All that is not an evil plan of KGB/CIA/worldwide-jewish-goverment/reptiles-from-Sirius/whatever.

What about his sentence, he was released not from sentence, but from... mmm... arrest. (I don't remember how it is in Russian exactly, so have no idea how it is in English). Until решение вступило в законную силу, a person can file an appeal, and a judge should назначить меру пресечения for that period of time. A prosecutor asked for arrest as мера пресечения, and the judge accepted this. But the next day the prosecutor changed his mind. Why? In my opinion, there are people in Putin environment who plays against Putin. Authorities are not monolithic, and I think Putin has a lot of enemies there. So those people just use Navalny to rock the boat.
It is not the reason one would stop of trusting Navalny.

And one more thing. Putin is just an old sick man, so he could get frightened and changed his mind by himself at the last moment. While the command reached the prosecutor, Navalny had already arrested.

For now, real 5 yr sentence is replaced with suspended sentence.

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Originally Posted by 14Russian

"У России есть самодостаточность" - Что? Нет. Putin doesn't promote self-sufficiency. He does promote theft, though.

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theft-sufficiency? Sounds great! ROFL

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Originally Posted by RedFox

Царизм — это buzzword из Советского Союза. There is nothing in the reality that can be named as царизм, as the word makes no sense.

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I guess everyone did understand, what I was complaining about. There is no mechanism to pass power in Russia. Only when current "directors" make a huge amount of some fatal mistakes or "get tired",
such passing becomes possible but occurs in uncontrolled, wild manner. In that sense, we are closer to Egypt than Hungary. Pity.

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Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I guess everyone did understand, what I was complaining about.

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Well, I didn't, so your guess is not completely true. So thanks for your explanations.
I just wouldn't like to encourage usage of ideologically-colored vocabulary having no clear meaning. We should make use of our reasoning, not some ideological cliches, shouldn't we?

As for your statements, they are quite fair, but in my opinion the situation is not something what we can just complain about, but a reason to work harder and do our best.

RedFox, thanks for the translations, it helped me.

I feel a sort of resignation about Democracy in general and I think the notion that Western countries have a lot to teach Russia about it, is wrong. Democracy is stagnating across Europe, it's nothing special for Russia.

What is the ideal that you are comparing Russia's democracy with? Is it the USA? or somewhere else? If so, do you really perceive this other country you are comparing with as an ideal - and are Russia's circumstances comparable?

When democracy evolved in Greece, it was practiced in small city states. Only male, educated, free men could participate in elections. So it's a bit of a matter of interpretation, how "democratic" it really was. People without property, slaves, women - the majority of society, could not participate in the democracy.

Another thing to bear in mind; on the small scale of the Greek city states, race, religion, language, ethnicity was the same for everyone. That is not the case in large countries where people tend to vote depending on one or more of these factors. Russia has all of these factors playing in.

People VOTED Hitler into power in a democratic country. Fascism is always around to take advantage of people's lowest instincts when times are tough. Right wing parties are doing really well in many countries in Europe at the moment.

And take the USA which likes to put itself forward as the greatest modern democracy. It has elections, but the two parties are almost identical in their ideology. There is no ideological alternative to vote for.

The golden days of democracy are over. Corporations and elites have now learned how to manipulate democracies in the direction that suits them. Take one look at Europe, the USA, and Middle East for starters, and you couldn't but help to see what I mean. People who are working class are easily manipulated by ads/propganda/slogans ahead of elections. The elected officials are subject to multimillion dollar campaigns to go against what's good for the public and support the corporations's agenda. Many cannot resist.

I remember thinking ca 1990 about Russians, they they sold out all the ideals and everything they had tried to create - for a pair of Levis', a hamburger and a cheap holiday abroad. But then, more importantly, for the possibility of Western democracy.

Well - I think you got what you wanted, and unfortunately, this is as good as it gets!
If not, which country has the successful democracy that you are aspiring to?

The living standard in Russia continues to rise and you have personal liberty to the extent that financial circumstances allow it. In Europe and the USA freedom and liberty is decreasing, people are getting poorer and democracy is increasingly hollowed out.

When Putin retires, things sill probably change if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

What is the ideal that you are comparing Russia's democracy with? Is it the USA? or somewhere else? If so, do you really perceive this other country you are comparing with as an ideal - and are Russia's circumstances comparable?

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I don't think we need any external ideal here. :) It should be mainly in heart.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

When democracy evolved in Greece, it was practiced in small city states. Only male, educated, free men could participate in elections. So it's a bit of a matter of interpretation, how "democratic" it really was. People without property, slaves, women - the majority of society, could not participate in the democracy.

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Comparing to other societies of that time, it undoubtedly was more democratic.
It is incorrect to compare societies who has completely different technological basis. So according to modern standards, Ancient Greece was some kind of Mordor. But did they have any better choise? But we have. If we can build as honest world as modern technologies makes it possible to do, we probably should try that.

Democracy promotes competition to all levels of the society. More competition — more effective the society works. Technologies get better, people get richer, moral gets more fair. So everybody wins.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Another thing to bear in mind; on the small scale of the Greek city states, race, religion, language, ethnicity was the same for everyone. That is not the case in large countries where people tend to vote depending on one or more of these factors. Russia has all of these factors playing in.

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Russia is highly monolitic country. Far more than USA is, for example. I believe every society should do its best in its own way. It makes no sence to find any consensus between completely different cultures. We have some regions here those are not Russian at all. Chechens, Ingushes and so on. I think we should give the sovereignty to those regions. Let they go its own way, whatever it is. Russia has no interests in those regions now, they just remained as a part of our state from the time when the Empire waged war against Ottoman.
So when we get them away, there will be no significant obstacles for keeping consensus between different parts of the country and the society.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

People VOTED Hitler into power in a democratic country. Fascism is always around to take advantage of people's lowest instincts when times are tough. Right wing parties are doing really well in many countries in Europe at the moment.

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In my opinion, danger of fascism is really overrated in the modern world. First, fascism as a monolitic ideology is possible only in highly monolitic information environment. Fascism in the age of Internet looks strange.
Second, fascism is badly ineffective, comparing to any other political systems.
And third, bad things sometimes happen. People could vote Hitler and so on. One could walk on the street and be killed by a brick falling from a roof.
If you go somewhere, sometimes you win. If you stay, you lose always.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

The golden days of democracy are over. Corporations and elites have now learned how to manipulate democracies in the direction that suits them. Take one look at Europe, the USA, and Middle East for starters, and you couldn't but help to see what I mean. People who are working class are easily manipulated by ads/propganda/slogans ahead of elections. The elected officials are subject to multimillion dollar campaigns to go against what's good for the public and support the corporations's agenda. Many cannot resist.

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The golden days of democracy are still somewhere in the future. It is first time in the history now when people organized in horizontal structures got chance to fight against corporations and tirans. Nowadays, modern technologies create new incredible ways and tools for implementing democratic society. All the old world is going to die, we are standing on the edge of something unbelievable.

This year, Navalny took 30% on Moscow Major elections. That result is not due to "multimillion dollar campaign", nor support of the goverment. It is the result taken under total informational isolation and constant pressing by officials. Funding of his campaign is done by such people as me or you, not big corporations. Whole election campaign, beginning from designing the first leaflet and up to the day of elections, is the result of work of ordinal people too.

This time it was 30%, the next time it will be 60%. This time it was only Navalny, the next time it will be a lot of people in different regions.

No one politician now can be sure he is free to control and deceive people.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

The living standard in Russia continues to rise and you have personal liberty to the extent that financial circumstances allow it.

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I hardly can agree to you that the country where all social institutions are going to die may be named as arising in living standards. 20 sorts of apples in a shop is not yet a high living standard, when medical aid, police, education and any guarantees of safety from the state are virtually nonexistent and defunct.

People are fed of all that, people want to live respectable life, not to fight for survival.

Hope, we will solve many of these problems in the foreseeable future.
And of course, hope people of Europe and US will advance in that way too.

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Hope, we will solve many of these problems in the foreseeable future.

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Indeed, hardly ever existed big country not able to conduct at least single serious reform (when everything needs to be reformed).
It seems inevitable that things will change, even for such vicious pessimist like me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq6Upd0z-LU

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Originally Posted by RedFox

I don't think we need any external ideal here. :) It should be mainly in heart.


Comparing to other societies of that time, it undoubtedly was more democratic.
It is incorrect to compare societies who has completely different technological basis. So according to modern standards, Ancient Greece was some kind of Mordor. But did they have any better choise? But we have. If we can build as honest world as modern technologies makes it possible to do, we probably should try that.

Democracy promotes competition to all levels of the society. More competition — more effective the society works. Technologies get better, people get richer, moral gets more fair. So everybody wins.


Russia is highly monolitic country. Far more than USA is, for example. I believe every society should do its best in its own way. It makes no sence to find any consensus between completely different cultures. We have some regions here those are not Russian at all. Chechens, Ingushes and so on. I think we should give the sovereignty to those regions. Let they go its own way, whatever it is. Russia has no interests in those regions now, they just remained as a part of our state from the time when the Empire waged war against Ottoman.
So when we get them away, there will be no significant obstacles for keeping consensus between different parts of the country and the society.


In my opinion, danger of fascism is really overrated in the modern world. First, fascism as a monolitic ideology is possible only in highly monolitic information environment. Fascism in the age of Internet looks strange.
Second, fascism is badly ineffective, comparing to any other political systems.
And third, bad things sometimes happen. People could vote Hitler and so on. One could walk on the street and be killed by a brick falling from a roof.
If you go somewhere, sometimes you win. If you stay, you lose always.


The golden days of democracy are still somewhere in the future. It is first time in the history now when people organized in horizontal structures got chance to fight against corporations and tirans. Nowadays, modern technologies create new incredible ways and tools for implementing democratic society. All the old world is going to die, we are standing on the edge of something unbelievable.

This year, Navalny took 30% on Moscow Major elections. That result is not due to "multimillion dollar campaign", nor support of the goverment. It is the result taken under total informational isolation and constant pressing by officials. Funding of his campaign is done by such people as me or you, not big corporations. Whole election campaign, beginning from designing the first leaflet and up to the day of elections, is the result of work of ordinal people too.

This time it was 30%, the next time it will be 60%. This time it was only Navalny, the next time it will be a lot of people in different regions.

No one politician now can be sure he is free to control and deceive people.


I hardly can agree to you that the country where all social institutions are going to die may be named as arising in living standards. 20 sorts of apples in a shop is not yet a high living standard, when medical aid, police, education and any guarantees of safety from the state are virtually nonexistent and defunct.

People are fed of all that, people want to live respectable life, not to fight for survival.

Hope, we will solve many of these problems in the foreseeable future.
And of course, hope people of Europe and US will advance in that way too.

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I thought your answers were really good, even if they were contradictory to some of the things I said. So I will not argue back. There are two sides to the coin.

It would be fantastic if the golden days of democracy were ahead of us, like you say, and if technology could be used to improve that (rather than, as it seems at the moment - it turns us into consumption robots, and spies on us!)

I agree with you that fascism has some good points, and that things are not quite as black and white as they are sometimes presented. But I never thought a Russian person would agree with it. The issue is: After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, and their views on Eastern Europe in general, it's just not possible to condone any aspect of their ideology, on principle.


Can you explain what aspects of life in Russia are unacceptably bad: I mean in terms of the things you mentioned, like healthcare, education police?
I watch news from Russia and I see well-dressed, smart people going about their business just like any other country. I know that pensions are too small for old people, and that there are social problems with alcoholism and unemployment. But everyone has food on the table and a roof over their head right? And you get healthcare if you need it - OR? I am really curious - I haven't been to Russia since childhood; was planning to go there a couple of years ago, but had some visa problems and only ended up visiting Ukraine and Belarus.

My impression is that "living standard" is rising for the majority of Russians. But I could have the wrong impression. So it would be helpful if you clarified.

Comparing Russia (from TV) with Ukraine and Belarus, which I visited on that trip; firstly I only saw big cities in Ukraine. There was poverty, but not extreme. Most people seemed ok and everything was functioning even though a bit run-down in places. It's a safe country.
Belarus surprised me - looked in much better shape than Ukraine, even there was a monetary crisis in progress. Things were better organised and you could tell the state had a finger in everything. Strangely enough, there were some luxury designer shops in the middle of Minsk. Right next to Soviet style shops with super-cheap locally produced stuff. People driving expensive fourwheelers etc. No unemployment, and no in-your-face poverty, apart from old ladies selling flowers to make cash when they should have been home enjoying their retirement. I was none the wiser as to what is really going on there, but it is a very nice country!

My impression is that Russia is miles ahead of both these countries in terms of people's incomes.
Or are you talking about something else?

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Can you explain what aspects of life in Russia are unacceptably bad: I mean in terms of the things you mentioned, like healthcare, education police?

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Education:

Most of universities and high schools are completely useless as a source of knowledge and skills. Educational programs are outdated for ages. Professors accept bribes. Educational culture is mostly ruined.
If you got a diploma, it just means you had been sitting in a university for 5-6 years, nothing more.

Status of higher education in nowadays Russia can be described with the following joke: https://pp.vk.me/c409021/v409021192/...Lv6QC8Fvp8.jpg

Of course, there are exceptions. My friend got a diploma as a specialist of quality management and lean production. As she told me, it was really hard to get that diploma, not some kind of fake. She failed to find a job in those fields, though.
And that is the reason of that state of affairs with higher education: no any job. No modern productions. Putin's Russia sells oil and buys consumer goods. No reason to develop anything. Economics consists of extractive industries and services sector. So people just go to universities because that is some kind of tradition. (Young men usually go to universities to avoid being drafted to forces.) But least of them will be able to get a job as specialists.

The obvious solution: to withdraw educational licenses of redundant universities and academies and to promote competition between the remaining ones — that solution seems never to come to mind of our government.


Healthcare:

Soviet hospitals were not fantastic at all, but they were at least approximately at the same level as hospitals in Western countries of that time. For now, the government takes almost no care for the state hospitals. So many of them looks like these now: uglich_jj - Ад русских больниц , uglich_jj - Ад русских больниц. Часть 2.

You are still able to get free health care in the state hospitals, but its quality can be entirely unpredictable. Some hospitals are good, some hospitals are just terrible. Some doctors are brilliant, but most of them are very unprofessional.

The second part of the state healthcare system is local polyclinics. With them, there are problem too: salaries are very low, so few people want to work there.


Police:

Police just does not work here.
Police is totally corrupted and "catches no mice". They can rob, rape, sell drugs — nobody is surprised. Sometimes they do catch some criminals — that is really surprising.
The same with ФСБ. They should fight against terrorists or something like that. In fact, they are terrorist by themselves, putting people in prison on any Putin's order.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I agree with you that fascism has some good points

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Uh, I didn't say so.
Fascism is some kind of disease that can infect an unfortunate society. As well as Stalin's regime for example.
But in modern world, the infection seems to be almost impossible, so no reason to be feared of fascism.

Democracy doesn't exist.
What's more important: living standards or electoral system?
Wht's so democratic about

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healthcare, education police?

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Redfox; thanks for the thorough run-down of public services and employment opportunities.

HEALTHCARE:
This issue is close to heart for me. I think decent healthcare is a citizen's right in a developed country.
I can see how you find it disturbing. Those hospital pictures were DISGUSTING. I remember seeing such pics in the 1990s and it killed my sympathy for socialism/communism and the countries involved, at the time. It was obvious that a lot of people simply hadn't been doing their jobs, for things to degrade so badly, and it was a really bad reflection on the whole society, for educated people to let things go that far. It's incomprehensible really. Can't see how a country can have a top notch space program, be a leading in multiple sports and sciences and not manage to run decent hospitals, and I still don't.

It's like Lampada said in a previous post: You can judge a society by how it treats the weakest members.

If that's the standard in the toilets, you have to wonder what the standard of surgery and other medical therapies are!

I really thought things had improved a lot, but it seems they have not!


EDUCATION:
Well, ruining education is the best way to ruin a country in a longer perspective, isn't it!? No wonder you are upset!

Again another thing that was probably decent in Soviet days, or how else could there be so many good scientists?
It's particularly disturbing to hear about bribes and corruption.

I guess for a person with a decent income, they could solve the problem by paying for private education, but you shouldn't have to! Here in the UK it's like this, and in the USA to a degree, as far as I can understand. And it creates a terrible class society with an elite being educated separately from scratch, and regular people's children getting a bad education in state schools.

Finally, POLICE, There has been some threads about that here, before you started. Corrupt and useless policemen etc.
Not paid enough? Or what's the problem. How can people feel safe, if they can't trust the police....?



I have to agree with Alex krsk though. Healthcare, police and education are not necessarily linked to democracy. Saudi Arabia has excellent healthcare for their citizens. That's very far from a democracy. Likewise Singapore ranks top 5 in the world in all these area, and that's not a democracy either.

I think Edinaya Rossia has had long enough to do something about corruption now though. And improve education and healthcare. They had well over a decade. If there is no improvement soon, then I think you need a change of government! I have no idea who could do a better job, but 15 years is long enough to turn things around, so that people can notice a difference.

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Not paid enough? Or what's the problem.

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Разруха - она в головах. Деньги бесполезны, если руководителям на всех уровнях плевать, в каком состоянии находится вверенное им хозяйство.

Edinaya Rossia is just a set of thousands disparate men and women. Every one, having had some power in the beginning of 2000, was insistently persuaded to join the party, half of them were the corruptionists. We need to ask Aliens to bring back the order.

Funny stories.

Recently I spent much time in the hospital (my knee cap had cracked). I don't want to return there! I highly advise anyone to protect his/her bones and junctions as carefully as possible.

Story 1
I could walk, but couldn't bend my leg (there was a plaster on it). The toilet, as usually, was situated just behind the door. As a result, any one with a unbending leg had a reasonable choice: either to sit down, either to close the door.

Story 2
I must say, that even to get into the hospital, one need to have steel nerves and good spare of health.
Many people in my ward (in fact, all 9 of them) was injured in the country-side, and often they had to stay in their country hospitals for 6..8 month because the surgery are being accomplished only in one city hospital, which is tiny. For a such time lapse, all fractures are consolidated by themselves (poorly). Take into account that most villagers HAVE to keep their peasant lifestyle: vegetable garden, care for cattle, poultry, etc.

Story 3
There are rumors , that nurses in country hospitals (районная больница) receive salary equal to $60 (2000 рублей).

Story 4
One old man was ready to leave the ward (and at last to clear place for a next patient), but, unfortunately, it had been slight raining for several days, and the roads become unusable. I remembered from 1980s, how the bus rode to village but not back, because rains happened just in inappropriate time. I thought, they laid asphalt since then, but, alas, no.
30 years has passed.

Curtain.

Hanna, our health care is wild mix of free and very expensive services. People are totally confused with the system. In short, you go to your local поликлиника for free, but then you will be directed to expensive examinations and other specialists (which are present only in paid agencies). So, поликлиника is good, if you have plain nasal cold, but in other circumstances, you are out of luck. Prepare you money.
Medicines, of course, for money (much more expensive than in Czech rep. for example). In hospital they will pull money from you, or will propose to buy needed medicines for yourself ("we don't have them"), though as far as I understand, hospitals are being funded by State, and everything should be free for patients.
So, our public places and internet are FLOODED with the notes like this
11-летнему мальчику-боксеру собирают деньги на лечение — НГС.НОВОСТИ Омск

Also,if someone would start thread "Is Russia a developed country?" instead of dubious "democracy" thing, you could learn A LOT about everyday life in Russia.

Стал известен маршрут эстафеты олимпийского огня в Омске

(No need to read the article, just note the Comments below article :yahoo: )

I've spent one third of my life in the USSR one third in the US and one third in Russia. And I can tell that Russia is the best place among these three.

Talking abou personal freedom Russia is much more free than US and EU countries.

What about democracy, i hear a lot about unfair vote counting, but all whom i ask voted for Putin. (?)

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Healthcare, police and education

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If all those who complain about healthcare in Russia tried medical system e.g. of the US with it's nice restrooms that would sober them down right away.
It's not like i'm comfortable with bad condotins in hospitals. I just know that things are getting better dispite the fact that we all pay 6 - 15 % tax.

The same about police. You woldn't like it to deal with police in the US.

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Not paid enough?

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lowest police salary in Russia now is about 1000 euros.

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I think Edinaya Rossia has had long enough to do something about corruption now though. And improve education and healthcare. They had well over a decade.

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No it's not enough. People (including those municipal officials) had zero budget culture after 70 years of dictatorship. It takes time to grow.

Russia now is a great place full of opportunities for those who want to work. It depends on you what do you want: to work or to keep on complaining scaring each other with some horrific pics.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Finally, POLICE, There has been some threads about that here, before you started. Corrupt and useless policemen etc.
Not paid enough?

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That is not the question. The system works in the "negative selection" mode. If Putin is thief and all his ministers are thiefs, could they build fair system? So the system degrades, day by day. That movement may not be visible on close distance, but if we look 10 years back, we can clearly see the whole process. "Рыба гниёт с головы."
So all good cops either leaved police or turned into bad cops.

Police can be reformed only when the president actually decides to do that. For example, as Saakashvili did it in Georgia. He fired all the road police services entirely and created them anew by hiring persons who never served as policemen before.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I have to agree with Alex krsk though. Healthcare, police and education are not necessarily linked to democracy. Saudi Arabia has excellent healthcare for their citizens. That's very far from a democracy. Likewise Singapore ranks top 5 in the world in all these area, and that's not a democracy either.

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...and they can kill their women for any ridiculous reason in Saudi Arabia too. Uh, thanks, that is not an option. I prefer to have both freedom and social services, not to sell one of them for another.

Russia is controlled by "the system of crooks and thieves". The only way to bring the country to worthy life is to destroy the system entirely and make sure it will never be able to arise. And the only way to do so in our circumstances is the democratic nationalistic revolution.

In Singapore, they built a fair state with some kind of dictatorship, and their results are very impressive. But that way does not match our mentality. In fact, Lee Kuan Yew created the whole new nation from fragments of different ethnic groups that lived in Singapore of that time. He is a great person, I think. But here in Russia we already have Russian nation. So we don't need any kind of dictators, but only our own will.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I think Edinaya Rossia has had long enough to do something about corruption now though. And improve education and healthcare. They had well over a decade. If there is no improvement soon, then I think you need a change of government! I have no idea who could do a better job, but 15 years is long enough to turn things around, so that people can notice a difference.

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The fact is Edinaya Rossia was never intended to develop anything, but only to steal and lie. Too bad, it took too long time for us to understand that. The real resistance against the system of crooks began only 2 years ago, so now we have to go long way.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

The only way to bring the country to worthy life is to destroy the system entirely and make sure it will never be able to arise.

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Весь мир насилья мы разрушим до основанья а затем...

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Было уже. Что было затем все знают

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Originally Posted by RedFox

And the only way to do so in our circumstances is the democratic nationalistic revolution.

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Национал-социалистическую революцию? А нет национал-демократическую... тогда ладно :)

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Originally Posted by RedFox

But here in Russia we already have Russian nation.

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This reminds me something.

Do you like beer, btw?

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Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Было уже. Что было затем все знают

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Левых надо держать на пушечный выстрел от власти. А то они такого понастроят...

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Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

This reminds me something.

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Тю! И чего же?

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Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Do you like beer, btw?

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Раз в полгода.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

Левых надо держать на пушечный выстрел от власти. А то они такого понастроят...

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Среди правых сволочей не меньше. Вообще сволочи размазаны равномерно среди всех групп населения.

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Originally Posted by Юрка

Среди правых сволочей не меньше. Вообще сволочи размазаны равномерно среди всех групп населения.

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Дело не в сволочах, а в специфическом искажении восприятия, которое не позволяет левым управлять государством.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

The only way to bring the country to worthy life is to destroy the system entirely and make sure it will never be able to arise. And the only way to do so in our circumstances is the democratic nationalistic revolution.

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(Дeleted. L.)У нас уже наломались, сломали, все просрали, что можно, на весь мир облажались, до сих пор обтекаем. (Deleted. L/) нам разрушений хватит - мы уже строим новое общество, чего граждане (Deleted. L.) предпочитают не замечать.
(Deleted. L.)считают, что лучшим для русского народа почему-то будет опять сломать (Deleted.L.) государство.

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Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

мы уже строим новое общество

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(Deleted.L.)

(Deleted. L.)

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Originally Posted by Юрка

Среди правых сволочей не меньше. Вообще сволочи размазаны равномерно среди всех групп населения.

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Inflaming statement = trolling

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Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

(Дeleted. L.)У нас уже наломались, сломали, все просрали, что можно, на весь мир облажались, до сих пор обтекаем. (Deleted. L/) нам разрушений хватит - мы уже строим новое общество, чего граждане (Deleted. L.) предпочитают не замечать.
(Deleted. L.)считают, что лучшим для русского народа почему-то будет опять сломать (Deleted.L.) государство.

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Как зачинатель перепалки с переходом на личности, получаешь предупреждение.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

Дело не в сволочах, а в специфическом искажении восприятия, которое не позволяет левым управлять государством.

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Левые нормально управляли, пока в их внуках не кончился революционный энтузиазм. Теперь эти внуки стали отличными правыми.
А порядочность позволяет компенсировать недостатки любого мировоззрения. У правых тоже есть искажения. Например, в 1930-ые годы в США был голод, а они уничтожали продукты, чтобы спасти рынок (а не людей). Они (а именно банки) отнимали у фермеров землю. Они сгоняли их на принудительные работы по строительству дорог (ГУЛАГ по-американски).

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Inflaming statement = trolling

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1. Мне кажется, что Вы используете термины, смысл которых не понимаете (троллинг).
2. Мне кажется, что Вы не стремитесь к тому, чтобы я понял ваши предупреждения (англ. язык).

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Originally Posted by Юрка

Левые нормально управляли, пока в их внуках не кончился революционный энтузиазм.

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Если вы в следующем сообщении собираетесь рассказать, как Сталин замечательно поднял страну с колен, а потом деды-воевали-бабки-помогали, то давайте просто не будем. Эти разговоры уже утомили до невозможности.

Кстати я согласен, что Lampada напрасно назвала тот пост троллингом. Обычное мнение было высказано.

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(Deleted.L.)

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Извиняюсь, что ввязался в перепалку.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

Кстати я согласен, что Lampada напрасно назвала тот пост троллингом. Обычное мнение было высказано.

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Может, для кого-то и обычное, но на нашем форуме обидно такое читать.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

Если вы в следующем сообщении собираетесь... утомили до невозможности.

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Замечу только, что это называется переходом на личности. Вы комментируете не обсуждаемый предмет, а мои намерения и вашу реакцию на мои намерения.

P.S. Но Лампада такие вещи не замечает.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Может, для кого-то и обычное, но на нашем форуме обидно такое читать.

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Сами по себе грубые слова, если они не направлены на участника форума, не являются оскорбительными. Здесь же даже мат обсуждался без купюр, с точки зрения филологии.

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Originally Posted by Юрка

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Если вы в следующем сообщении собираетесь... утомили до невозможности.

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Замечу только, что это называется переходом на личности. Вы комментируете не обсуждаемый предмет, а мои намерения и вашу реакцию на мои намерения.

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Вообще-то это называется предложением "давайте не телепать друг другу мозги".
Я прекрасно знаю ваши аргумент, вы прекрасно знаете мои. В чем смысл этого разговора?

А еще это называется наглым искажением моих слов, поскольку в вашей цитате моего поста "разговоры, которые утомили" изящно превратились в "вас, который меня утомил".
За сим откланиваюсь. Больше с вами в диалоги вступать не намерен, поскольку вы либо не умеете читать, либо тролль.

For the record, I think it's unfortunate DrBaldhead's statements/comments got censored. (Ditto for whatever provoked RedFox's rebuttal being moderated?). I find myself disagreeing with most of what DrBaldhead states about politics (hehe - I think so, anyway) but I doubt he said anything really that bad requiring that. Imho, it's good to see Russians get passionate and emotional about things that concern their country. Whether I agree with or not, I think they should try to evaluate what is going on. All imho, of course. I also have confidence that they can moderate themselves. They don't seem to get out of line much - but, that's just my impression.

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Originally Posted by RedFox

That is not the question. The system works in the "negative selection" mode. If Putin is thief and all his ministers are thiefs, could they build fair system? So the system degrades, day by day. That movement may not be visible on close distance, but if we look 10 years back, we can clearly see the whole process. "Рыба гниёт с головы."
So all good cops either leaved police or turned into bad cops.

Police can be reformed only when the president actually decides to do that. For example, as Saakashvili did it in Georgia. He fired all the road police services entirely and created them anew by hiring persons who never served as policemen before.



...and they can kill their women for any ridiculous reason in Saudi Arabia too. Uh, thanks, that is not an option. I prefer to have both freedom and social services, not to sell one of them for another.

Russia is controlled by "the system of crooks and thieves". The only way to bring the country to worthy life is to destroy the system entirely and make sure it will never be able to arise. And the only way to do so in our circumstances is the democratic nationalistic revolution.

In Singapore, they built a fair state with some kind of dictatorship, and their results are very impressive. But that way does not match our mentality. In fact, Lee Kuan Yew created the whole new nation from fragments of different ethnic groups that lived in Singapore of that time. He is a great person, I think. But here in Russia we already have Russian nation. So we don't need any kind of dictators, but only our own will.


The fact is Edinaya Rossia was never intended to develop anything, but only to steal and lie. Too bad, it took too long time for us to understand that. The real resistance against the system of crooks began only 2 years ago, so now we have to go long way.

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I'm not arguing with you on this RedFox, you are much better placed to judge this than me.
However it seems like you ought to get politically involved in some party with a concrete program to achieve change. You obviously has strong feelings about this.

But whatever the fix is, it has to come from inside Russia, driven by Russians. Nobody else can solve your problems, or truly has your best interests at heart. Not the EU, not the USA and nobody else. Convincing a foreigner that things are crap in Russia doesn't change anything, apart from perhaps discouraging people from all things Russian. It's the Russians who have to want to change.

As for me, I like the culture and language of Russi, want to be able to visit there and feel safe, but apart from that, the politics of Russia is up to the Russians. I am neither going to jump on the Western bias about Russia, nor believe some spin doctor who would claim that it's a faultless country. I also prefer to look for positives and not come here and bring up every bad thing I ever heard about Russia.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I'm not arguing with you on this RedFox, you are much better placed to judge this than me.
However it seems like you ought to get politically involved in some party with a concrete program to achieve change. You obviously has strong feelings about this.

But whatever the fix is, it has to come from inside Russia, driven by Russians. Nobody else can solve your problems, or truly has your best interests at heart. Not the EU, not the USA and nobody else. Convincing a foreigner that things are crap in Russia doesn't change anything, apart from perhaps discouraging people from all things Russian. It's the Russians who have to want to change.

As for me, I like the culture and language of Russi, want to be able to visit there and feel safe, but apart from that, the politics of Russia is up to the Russians. I am neither going to jump on the Western bias about Russia, nor believe some spin doctor who would claim that it's a faultless country. I also prefer to look for positives and not come here and bring up every bad thing I ever heard about Russia.

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Yeah, pretty much the same attitude you have about any other country. =)) Here comes a paradox - what if the Russians think it's not just up to them, and want somebody else to help them solve some of their problems? :-P

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Yeah, pretty much the same attitude you have about any other country. =)) Here comes a paradox - what if the Russians think it's not just up to them, and want somebody else to help them solve some of their problems? :-P

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That's exactly what happened in the 1990s. The USA (and Europe) sent in anyone from businessmen, corporations, missionaries, journalists, spies, fashion designers and human rights activists to teach the Russians how to runt their country, after communism. And Russia let them in. Even more so in other ex Soviet republics.
So to summarise: They have already tried that.

But maybe they didn't try hard enough last time, is that what you are saying, Eric?
Maybe Russia needs to be a colony of the USA, or perhaps even or the 51st state of the USA?
Maybe you could take on some of the US foreign debt as compensation - since Russia has hardly no debt compared to the USA.

And in return the USA could teach the Russians all about how to run a democratic, prosperous and peaceful country where everybody lives happily ever after...

How about it, Russians?

[That's enough time wasted by me on Eric's trolling - as provocative and silly as it is, it's not worth wasting time on]

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

what if the Russians think it's not just up to them, and want somebody else to help them solve some of their problems? :-P

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Это вряд ли. *)

А вот украинцы, похоже, действительно верят, что EU обязан им помогать. :shock:

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Originally Posted by RedFox

вы либо не умеете читать, либо тролль.

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Ну вот, опять обсуждаете меня, обзываетесь. Если модератор разрешил, то это не значит, что культурный человек (фразу "за сим откланиваюсь" расцениваю как претензию на культурность) этим воспользуется.

Что касается "не умеете читать":
1. Ваша цитата не искажена, так как там стоит многоточие.
2. Моя фраза "вашу реакцию на мои намерения" говорит о том, что вашу реакцию ("утомили") я отношу не к себе, а к своим намерениям (что-либо написать).
Таким образом ваши претензии ко мне считаю беспочвенными.

P.S. Лампада, я бы конечно написал это в личном сообщении, но приходится публично, так как наезд был публичным.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

However it seems like you ought to get politically involved in some party with a concrete program to achieve change.

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That "concrete program" as was cited above is called national-socialism. And those paries and programs are banned in all european countries including Russia.

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Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

That "concrete program" as was cited above is called national-socialism. And those paries and programs are banned in all european countries including Russia.

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Советую отучиться говорить за других. Полезный навык, в жизни пригодится.