Thread: Is Russia a democracy? Плюс то же о некоторых других странах

Originally Posted by Hanna

What is the ideal that you are comparing Russia's democracy with? Is it the USA? or somewhere else? If so, do you really perceive this other country you are comparing with as an ideal - and are Russia's circumstances comparable?

I don't think we need any external ideal here. It should be mainly in heart.

Originally Posted by Hanna

When democracy evolved in Greece, it was practiced in small city states. Only male, educated, free men could participate in elections. So it's a bit of a matter of interpretation, how "democratic" it really was. People without property, slaves, women - the majority of society, could not participate in the democracy.

Comparing to other societies of that time, it undoubtedly was more democratic.
It is incorrect to compare societies who has completely different technological basis. So according to modern standards, Ancient Greece was some kind of Mordor. But did they have any better choise? But we have. If we can build as honest world as modern technologies makes it possible to do, we probably should try that.

Democracy promotes competition to all levels of the society. More competition — more effective the society works. Technologies get better, people get richer, moral gets more fair. So everybody wins.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Another thing to bear in mind; on the small scale of the Greek city states, race, religion, language, ethnicity was the same for everyone. That is not the case in large countries where people tend to vote depending on one or more of these factors. Russia has all of these factors playing in.

Russia is highly monolitic country. Far more than USA is, for example. I believe every society should do its best in its own way. It makes no sence to find any consensus between completely different cultures. We have some regions here those are not Russian at all. Chechens, Ingushes and so on. I think we should give the sovereignty to those regions. Let they go its own way, whatever it is. Russia has no interests in those regions now, they just remained as a part of our state from the time when the Empire waged war against Ottoman.
So when we get them away, there will be no significant obstacles for keeping consensus between different parts of the country and the society.

Originally Posted by Hanna

People VOTED Hitler into power in a democratic country. Fascism is always around to take advantage of people's lowest instincts when times are tough. Right wing parties are doing really well in many countries in Europe at the moment.

In my opinion, danger of fascism is really overrated in the modern world. First, fascism as a monolitic ideology is possible only in highly monolitic information environment. Fascism in the age of Internet looks strange.
Second, fascism is badly ineffective, comparing to any other political systems.
And third, bad things sometimes happen. People could vote Hitler and so on. One could walk on the street and be killed by a brick falling from a roof.
If you go somewhere, sometimes you win. If you stay, you lose always.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The golden days of democracy are over. Corporations and elites have now learned how to manipulate democracies in the direction that suits them. Take one look at Europe, the USA, and Middle East for starters, and you couldn't but help to see what I mean. People who are working class are easily manipulated by ads/propganda/slogans ahead of elections. The elected officials are subject to multimillion dollar campaigns to go against what's good for the public and support the corporations's agenda. Many cannot resist.

The golden days of democracy are still somewhere in the future. It is first time in the history now when people organized in horizontal structures got chance to fight against corporations and tirans. Nowadays, modern technologies create new incredible ways and tools for implementing democratic society. All the old world is going to die, we are standing on the edge of something unbelievable.

This year, Navalny took 30% on Moscow Major elections. That result is not due to "multimillion dollar campaign", nor support of the goverment. It is the result taken under total informational isolation and constant pressing by officials. Funding of his campaign is done by such people as me or you, not big corporations. Whole election campaign, beginning from designing the first leaflet and up to the day of elections, is the result of work of ordinal people too.

This time it was 30%, the next time it will be 60%. This time it was only Navalny, the next time it will be a lot of people in different regions.

No one politician now can be sure he is free to control and deceive people.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The living standard in Russia continues to rise and you have personal liberty to the extent that financial circumstances allow it.

I hardly can agree to you that the country where all social institutions are going to die may be named as arising in living standards. 20 sorts of apples in a shop is not yet a high living standard, when medical aid, police, education and any guarantees of safety from the state are virtually nonexistent and defunct.

People are fed of all that, people want to live respectable life, not to fight for survival.

Hope, we will solve many of these problems in the foreseeable future.
And of course, hope people of Europe and US will advance in that way too.

Originally Posted by RedFox

I don't think we need any external ideal here. It should be mainly in heart.


Comparing to other societies of that time, it undoubtedly was more democratic.
It is incorrect to compare societies who has completely different technological basis. So according to modern standards, Ancient Greece was some kind of Mordor. But did they have any better choise? But we have. If we can build as honest world as modern technologies makes it possible to do, we probably should try that.

Democracy promotes competition to all levels of the society. More competition — more effective the society works. Technologies get better, people get richer, moral gets more fair. So everybody wins.


Russia is highly monolitic country. Far more than USA is, for example. I believe every society should do its best in its own way. It makes no sence to find any consensus between completely different cultures. We have some regions here those are not Russian at all. Chechens, Ingushes and so on. I think we should give the sovereignty to those regions. Let they go its own way, whatever it is. Russia has no interests in those regions now, they just remained as a part of our state from the time when the Empire waged war against Ottoman.
So when we get them away, there will be no significant obstacles for keeping consensus between different parts of the country and the society.


In my opinion, danger of fascism is really overrated in the modern world. First, fascism as a monolitic ideology is possible only in highly monolitic information environment. Fascism in the age of Internet looks strange.
Second, fascism is badly ineffective, comparing to any other political systems.
And third, bad things sometimes happen. People could vote Hitler and so on. One could walk on the street and be killed by a brick falling from a roof.
If you go somewhere, sometimes you win. If you stay, you lose always.


The golden days of democracy are still somewhere in the future. It is first time in the history now when people organized in horizontal structures got chance to fight against corporations and tirans. Nowadays, modern technologies create new incredible ways and tools for implementing democratic society. All the old world is going to die, we are standing on the edge of something unbelievable.

This year, Navalny took 30% on Moscow Major elections. That result is not due to "multimillion dollar campaign", nor support of the goverment. It is the result taken under total informational isolation and constant pressing by officials. Funding of his campaign is done by such people as me or you, not big corporations. Whole election campaign, beginning from designing the first leaflet and up to the day of elections, is the result of work of ordinal people too.

This time it was 30%, the next time it will be 60%. This time it was only Navalny, the next time it will be a lot of people in different regions.

No one politician now can be sure he is free to control and deceive people.


I hardly can agree to you that the country where all social institutions are going to die may be named as arising in living standards. 20 sorts of apples in a shop is not yet a high living standard, when medical aid, police, education and any guarantees of safety from the state are virtually nonexistent and defunct.

People are fed of all that, people want to live respectable life, not to fight for survival.

Hope, we will solve many of these problems in the foreseeable future.
And of course, hope people of Europe and US will advance in that way too.

I thought your answers were really good, even if they were contradictory to some of the things I said. So I will not argue back. There are two sides to the coin.

It would be fantastic if the golden days of democracy were ahead of us, like you say, and if technology could be used to improve that (rather than, as it seems at the moment - it turns us into consumption robots, and spies on us!)

I agree with you that fascism has some good points, and that things are not quite as black and white as they are sometimes presented. But I never thought a Russian person would agree with it. The issue is: After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, and their views on Eastern Europe in general, it's just not possible to condone any aspect of their ideology, on principle.


Can you explain what aspects of life in Russia are unacceptably bad: I mean in terms of the things you mentioned, like healthcare, education police?
I watch news from Russia and I see well-dressed, smart people going about their business just like any other country. I know that pensions are too small for old people, and that there are social problems with alcoholism and unemployment. But everyone has food on the table and a roof over their head right? And you get healthcare if you need it - OR? I am really curious - I haven't been to Russia since childhood; was planning to go there a couple of years ago, but had some visa problems and only ended up visiting Ukraine and Belarus.

My impression is that "living standard" is rising for the majority of Russians. But I could have the wrong impression. So it would be helpful if you clarified.

Comparing Russia (from TV) with Ukraine and Belarus, which I visited on that trip; firstly I only saw big cities in Ukraine. There was poverty, but not extreme. Most people seemed ok and everything was functioning even though a bit run-down in places. It's a safe country.
Belarus surprised me - looked in much better shape than Ukraine, even there was a monetary crisis in progress. Things were better organised and you could tell the state had a finger in everything. Strangely enough, there were some luxury designer shops in the middle of Minsk. Right next to Soviet style shops with super-cheap locally produced stuff. People driving expensive fourwheelers etc. No unemployment, and no in-your-face poverty, apart from old ladies selling flowers to make cash when they should have been home enjoying their retirement. I was none the wiser as to what is really going on there, but it is a very nice country!

My impression is that Russia is miles ahead of both these countries in terms of people's incomes.
Or are you talking about something else?