Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

We are now opening a contest for the best metaphor for Latvia-Russia relations
My turn: Russian Latvians remind me of divorced couple's children who love both their parents and can't decide with whom to live and whom to see only on weekends.
Poor little baby Linderman... Sorry, I can't stop thinking up silly things

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.

Prove.

They did exactly that

Nonsense.

I can't believe there is only one Latvian person on this forum and the thread has been going for 5 pages.

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).

If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle

Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.
But here my rather moderate views are called 10/10 patriotism
And there are Russian politicians that think like me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbuyye3Fxa0

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others. Prove.

Here we go again. Maybe in Russia it was not the case, but in occupied territories it was.

Poor little baby Linderman

Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич

They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have

There are a lot of Russians that do not like USSR - why should I?

Originally Posted by nulle

Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.

Does it mean that you simply like to troll people? (no offense, but turning your head into stone about any subject is not the best way find the truth. Besides, there are at least two different truths to any subject).

Слишком гуманна была Советская власть к тварям стрелявшим ей в спину. Отсидели свой пятерик, и опять пользовались всеми правами наряду с остальными гражданами СССР. А теперь их узколобые детеныши врут про оккупацию.

Originally Posted by nulle

When Russian tanks will come in?

Oh, you're crying wolf...

Originally Posted by nulle

Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич

I read about Linderman. FSB kicked him out of Russia to his birthplace - Latvia.
Btw, Linderman has a medal "Defender of barricades" because he was participating in 1991 events in Riga as a journalist for the Russian version of the "Atmoda" newspaper.
I understand that there was no fighting and barricades had mainly symbolic meaning, but nevertheless Linderman participated in protests for the Latvian independence and against USSR membership among many other Latvians and Russian Latvians.

PS: Linderman is a Jew born in Riga, but Russian is his native language.
PPS: He has Lenin's first name and patronymic. It is just a coincidence I think, but very fortunate one. Apparently, he is a life-long revolutionary.

"Kremlin's historian" Dyukov - please - no one takes him seriously...

Besides, there are at least two different truths to any subject.

That is if you think like in Orwell's "1984".

I choose not to believe falsified history,

Originally Posted by nulle

I choose not to believe falsified history,

Oh, no, you choose not to believe OUR falsified history, but you're ready to believe some alternative history (also falsified) that suit you better.

Originally Posted by nulle

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others. Prove.
Here we go again. Maybe in Russia it was not the case, but in occupied territories it was.

I browsed Wikipedia and found out that leadership of the Latvian SSR was predominantly Latvian, not Russian.
While Latvian SSR existed there were 11 Latvian and 3 Russian leaders (chairmen, speakers etc.) - I tell them apart by surnames, so I may be wrong, but only slightly.
Interestingly, all leaders of the Communist party of the Latvian SSR were Latvians exclusively.
I agree that there was political dominance of Moscow and there was no democracy, but Latvian SSR was governed mostly by native Latvians.
So in which respect were Russians more equal than others in the Latvian SSR?

On the other hand, it looks like there was no economic dominance of RSFSR over the rest of SSRs.
Why RSFSR should buy those RAF vans if not to support Lavian SSR's economy? There were enough car making factories in RSFSR, but USSR's leadership strived to improve economies of all the republics, so they encouraged bilateral trade between every two SSRs.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Слишком гуманна была Советская власть к тварям стрелявшим ей в спину. Отсидели свой пятерик, и опять пользовались всеми правами наряду с остальными гражданами СССР. А теперь их узколобые детеныши врут про оккупацию.

Did those Latvians shoot at the Soviets' backs anywhere else than in Latvia? You know, if some guy broke in my house, and turned violent before the police arrived, I would have to shoot at his back too, and so would everyone I guess.

Originally Posted by Hanna

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).

If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

You can get "free" citizenship for special services to the nation. Nulle's trolldom might count...

Anyway, Hanna's position on this question - no question about the need for Latvian localization, and no question about the wrong-headedness of the current policies towards the Russian-speaking minority - is absolutely correct and wouldn't be questioned by anyone with any understanding of the National Question in general, language planning policy theory, nation-building, language acquisition, civic rights or plain old democracy.

A good presentation of the situation in Latvia can be found in this article (pdf, quick view): https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...tdt9hJYNn2A16g

or direct for download here: sh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:128103/FULLTEXT01

One thing that is clear from this (and this expression will be mine, not the author's) is that official Latvian language acquisition policy towards Russian-speakers is like teaching someone a language by writing some words on a baseball bat and smashing it into the learner's mouth.

I've just returned from a three-four day trip to Riga. I'm very interested in languages and was hoping to find some good materials for learning the language and something about it. Especially I hoped to find some hot-shit learning materials in Russian. The Soviet legacy in language teaching is excellent - I've seen this clearly myself in relation to textbooks in Hungarian and Czech from the days of the Stalinist occupation. I found nothing. A couple of short, not very clearly thought out textbooks for English speakers. I was extremely disappointed. I knew the Latvian majority practises discrimination against the Russian-speaking population, but the extent of this discrimination horrified me. Vindictive doesn't begin to cover it. I'm still interested in the language for linguistic reasons, but from now on I study with a clothes-peg on my nose.

It was fascinating to see what a miserable place Riga was - as far as the faces and demeanour of the people were concerned. But I suppose if you've been enjoying the benefits of capitalist freedom and democracy for twenty years and feel totally betrayed in every respect you've got every right to look miserable. People aren't even this glum in Helsinki a bad week in November.

The thing that best sums it all up for me is that the State Language Centre is part of the Ministry of Justice, and has policing and punitive powers. State Language Inspectors spying on and harassing members of a national minority going about their daily business. 1984. (A book I almost bought in Latvian to practise reading using a familiar text, and regretted not buying from the moment I left the bookshop. I couldn't find the Master and Margarita in Latvian, but given the state of affairs in the country 1984 would have been more appropriate...)

Thanks for listening. Paldies. Спасибо!

In that regard I think Latvians are more interested to treat their Russian ppl as the untermenchen than let them be culturalized.

I browsed Wikipedia and found out that leadership of the Latvian SSR was predominantly Latvian, not Russian.

There is a nice Russian word to describe it - показухa.
The real leaders were in Moscow.

So in which respect were Russians more equal than others in the Latvian SSR

Not Russians, but Russian speaking migrants from the rest of the USSR.
Because Latvia and other Baltic states were colonies of the USSR.
And immigrants came here to colonize our land.
That's why they had privileges - better job opportunities and faster access to cars and apartments.
They settled mainly in largest cities and towns - for local Latvians it was problematic, because of propiska system - thay had to stay in rural areas and smaller towns.
(Of course some Latvians got apartments in Riga too, but immigrants got them faster than normal queue - that's why some areas of Riga that were built during Soviet times (including area where I live) feels like Russia.)
So this is a bullshit argument that Soviets built houses, schools, infrastructure and factories for Latvians - they built these for Soviet migrants.
Late 1980s protests against Riga metro was not because Latvians do not like rapid transit (It is a pity that it was not built), but because it would mean even more immigration from the USSR.
Military, police, OMON and KGB officials had even more privileges - they were basically above the law. (Many were sent here from the rest of USSR to keep colonies in check)

Now "former" chekists, former military and criminals are forbidden from naturalization. (Russia should have done the same with their KGB officials and communist party members)

State Language Inspectors spying on and harassing members of a national minority going about their daily business.

You are trolling. That might be some Latvian radical nationalist's wet dream - thankfully that's not the case.
"Language police" only act if someone complains - it is more like customer service quality control.

About Waffen SS:
Nuremberg tribunal (which USSR also was a part of) decided that Waffen SS is a criminal organization EXCEPT Latvian and Estonian Legions.
They were conscripted illegally (against Hague convention which prohibits enlisting inhabitants of occupied territories - USSR also committed that crime by conscripting Latvians into Red Army).
Many legionnaires were later tasked to guard German war criminals.
LOUISiana Digital Library : Item Viewer
OMTPJ-P-25
All Western countries recognize it.
The only country that is screaming about Waffen SS and nazism in Latvia is... surprise, surprise... Russia.
No one else is paying any attention or commenting about Latvian Legion Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - only Russia - every year after Putin got power (in 90s even Russia did not care).
Even Israel is not saying anything.
And, I think, everybody knows how (in)famous Mossad is for hunting former Nazi criminals and people that, they think, are threat to Israel.
Look what they did to get this guy:
Adolf Eichmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And yet - they do not pay any attention to Latvian and Estonian Legionnaires - and these people aren't even hiding.

And all Russia can is to spread propaganda, because they do not have any evidence to prosecute these people.

Actually, it's good for Latvians to have the cajones to stand up to the Bolsheviks and too bad they don't to the EU. But, here, they celebrate and remember standing up to the Bolsheviks who were the real tyranny.

Mad March: Nazi SS 'glorified' in Latvia - YouTube

Even after the many millions they ended up killing, the Soviet luvers here still refuse to acknowledge. Some Latvians still are conditioned by these brainwashers (hence, it is the tyrants who want to ban such marches and protests) and they are the real fascists.

Who is more democratic, after all?

Russians don't study their own history. Shame.

Эстонцы все шутят...

День памяти жертв нацизма и сталинизма, отмечавшийся в Эстонии 23 августа, ознаменовался скандалом. На сайте местной газовой компании GasTerm появилась фотография из концлагеря Освенцим, снабженная подписью о преимуществах газового отопления. Снимок позднее убрали (на сайте был опубликован небольшой комментарий с извинениями), а исполнительный директор фирмы выступил с объяснениями. Из объяснений можно было сделать вывод, что особого сожаления он не испытывает: представитель фирмы назвал произошедшее "легкой провокацией" и рассказал анекдот про Гитлера и счет за газ.