Thread: Putin's increasing police state and smth about some other countries

Hehe Croc! There are always different ways to interpret history.
But it's interesting that lately there it is always the same country that invades other countries and builds up endless stories of how gruesome these countries are, and why they need to be invaded for everyones best. Yet when you scratch the surface; oil, currency or spreading commercialism is always there in the background.
You are leaning much more towards the Fox News interpretation of things than I am.
If I see a clear pattern then no amount of hype can get me to look around it.
And I feel there is a pattern.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Hehe Croc! There are always different ways to interpret history.
But it's interesting that lately there it is always the same country that invades other countries and builds up endless stories of how gruesome these countries are, and why they need to be invaded for everyones best. Yet when you scratch the surface; oil, currency or spreading commercialism is always there in the background.
You are leaning much more towards the Fox News interpretation of things than I am.
If I see a clear pattern then no amount of hype can get me to look around it.
And I feel there is a pattern.

How do you divide hype from clear-patten criteria, and give the latter credence? How to identify Real from Not-Real? What you mention above about "it's interesting.." is similar to the often-mentioned Bilderberg theory. (I'm actually a fan of that theory - some of it checks out, and it's plausible, if a little manic.)
But with respect: Most of the people who work in politics in my US are (imho but w/ citations!) idiots - far below the requisite intellect of folks who can fool the people en-masse.. The type of idiots that, when some objectile should be propelled toward their face at a high-profile press conference abroad in a hostile country, would try to CATCH said object instead of, oh, I don't know, taking cover. (An acinine reference, but it's shoe .. er, true. ) We have people in politics in America with severe drug problems, marital problems, deep-seated honesty problems - senators that fake their deaths, cheat on their wives, and get caught on TV just hoping it will IMPROVE their career. We even generated a Jimmy MacMillan recently, which is telling enough on its own about us. -- For crying out loud, one of our biggest states is governed by a halfwit Austrian ex-bodybuilder who is himself in the midst of a divorce... (It's not that America doesn't turn out great people. It's just that precious few of our great people are politicians.)
I would not doubt the idea that people like Berlusconi or Medvedev or someone else would be smart enough to be part of the Bilderbergs and leave us none the wiser. But when I try to imagine people like Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden being privy to the goings-on of this uber-powerful phantom-group, I can't help but laugh at the idea. Honestly, in my opinion, Obama's the first politician we've had in a long time who isn't a towering, rosaceic embarassment to us by just being on camera. He was the first president in my lifetime I can actually imagine as being smart enough to fool us. (And Kennedy, the one before him, was, fittingly enough, assassinated.)
Hanna, I for one don't doubt we're being fooled. But I know the puppeteer has got to be better than the ones we've seen.

Reading what you say is interesting... I think you've got your country pinned down - and it's a real shame things should be like that. It could be such a great country. The "dumbing down" of Americans seems almost deliberate. And most Americans are so affected by this that they don't even realise it's a problem! Catch 22!

When "news" has to be entertainment and appeal to the lowest common denominator.... also please the shareholders of the company that owns the TV network and accommodate for insane levels of constant commercial breaks.... then it's no surprise that the average person has no idea what's really going on in the world and in their country.

What's happened with American education I don't know, but I can tell you that "dumb Americans" are a source of lots of jokes in Western Europe for example. Can't even point out the major countries on a world map; know NOTHING about the history or real state of politics of major countries and have picked up some shockingly incorrect misinformation about some parts of the world. It seems to me that the only way to get a proper education in the US; either to go to a top private school, or read up about things on your own. (Respect to those who have done that!) I think this is really sad.... the ignorance of people means they can be tricked to think that it's necessary to regularly invade other countries, spend money and sacrifice lives for wars that are not needed for anyone apart from commercial interests. Why some smarter European nations play along with this I have no idea... but many people in Europe are furious about their countries' (largely symbolic) representation in America's wars.

I am disappointed that Obama has not deviated much from Bush' foreign policies. I agree with you he seems smarter and somewhat more sympathetic than many of the other presidents. But fundamentally he's changed nothing.

Bilderberg seems just too complicated a conspiracy for me to believe in. Freemasons, Jews etc; same thing.
If there IS a worldwide conspiracy, then it's probably a bit more secret. But most likely there is nothing very organised in place.
I lean more towards Ramil's point; that the "conspiracy" is fairly open secret - it's just that media is totally ignoring it.

A complex worldwide conspiracy would be too complicated I think: A human life is too short and a real worldwide conspiracy would take many generations to implement. Nobody lives long enough to keep the conspiracy running, or see it come to fruition.

Unless the plan/conspiracy is God's or the Devil's .....

It was a joy to read this. I must agree on all points. I was born here and I love this place, but there are two usa's - one where the people live, and the other where the governing powers hold court. I'm a dissatisfied citizen for the moment, because after all that's gone down since '01, I'm a little hurt that my countrymen won't prove to me, and all others, beyond all doubt, that Bin Laden was killed by us (if true). I'm like the woman who's been cheated on, wanting to believe what she is being told by the man, but unable to have faith.. If it's true, I would be relieved to see fingerprints, DNA or something that shows this man was real, and truly died as they say. (But that's a digression - sorry.)

Originally Posted by Hanna

Reading what you say is interesting... I think you've got your country pinned down - and it's a real shame things should be like that. It could be such a great country. The "dumbing down" of Americans seems almost deliberate. And most Americans are so affected by this that they don't even realise it's a problem! Catch 22!

When "news" has to be entertainment and appeal to the lowest common denominator.... also please the shareholders of the company that owns the TV network and accommodate for insane levels of constant commercial breaks.... then it's no surprise that the average person has no idea what's really going on in the world and in their country.

What's happened with American education I don't know, but I can tell you that "dumb Americans" are a source of lots of jokes in Western Europe for example. Can't even point out the major countries on a world map; know NOTHING about the history or real state of politics of major countries and have picked up some shockingly incorrect misinformation about some parts of the world. It seems to me that the only way to get a proper education in the US; either to go to a top private school, or read up about things on your own. (Respect to those who have done that!) I think this is really sad.... the ignorance of people means they can be tricked to think that it's necessary to regularly invade other countries, spend money and sacrifice lives for wars that are not needed for anyone apart from commercial interests. Why some smarter European nations play along with this I have no idea... but many people in Europe are furious about their countries' (largely symbolic) representation in America's wars.

These are some of the reasons I've been here these last few years. Sequestered thinking is dangerous. It depletes one's respect for human value. I often say that I am lucky to be surrounded by people such as you all from whom I learn a lot. And it's sad but true that many of us don't seem to know what we should about the world at large. When we in public school were taught geography, we were taught the States; in World History, never referred to maps, only to dates and paragraphs of written history. I learned geography, like what portion of Russian I know, from the internet. Many things gain value and excellence when marketed; here, I think, education when marketed loses value and excellence. Even integrity, at some point.

Maybe there is merit in redesigning some of these things. Ousting existing media channels and creating new ones, with more transparent processes of information collection and delivery, less moving parts. Revamping private education to market it not just toward use toward financial success as is severely the focus now, but instead toward actual knowledge of the world.. but there are more obstacles than I have digits to count them on.

If nothing else, certainly you've got me thinking.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Bilderberg seems just too complicated a conspiracy for me to believe in. Freemasons, Jews etc; same thing.
If there IS a worldwide conspiracy, then it's probably a bit more secret. But most likely there is nothing very organised in place.
I lean more towards Ramil's point; that the "conspiracy" is fairly open secret - it's just that media is totally ignoring it.

A complex worldwide conspiracy would be too complicated I think: A human life is too short and a real worldwide conspiracy would take many generations to implement. Nobody lives long enough to keep the conspiracy running, or see it come to fruition.

That's pretty much my thought on this, too. When we speak of the emotional landscape of the subject, I would say that my *feeling* is there's more than meets the eye, and that the threads we pull on run deep into the fabric. But I have no evidence, so I leave my Shining moments where they belong for the time being.=)