Thread: Pavel Durov, Founder of VK sells and moves to US "VK in the hands of Putin"?

Да в том-то и дело, что "феномен великого и гениального Павла Дурова" сильно преувеличен. Он обычный долбодятел, попавший в струю на волне FB. Ничем не отметился, кроме описанных выходок с разбрасыванием денег и наездом (буквально, на автомобиле) на сотрудника ДПС, после чего его пришлось отмазывать друзьям из ФСБ.
Судьба Дурова мне напомнила судьбу Чичваркина и "Евросети". Почти то же самое. Только Чичваркин был зиц-председатель, никто. А может и Дуров был таким же, кто его знает.

I thought a bit more about this:

If FSB had to actually ASK Vkontakte about the details for the Euromaidan people, then that is actually GOOD from the perspective that they don't automatically have the information.

The CIA wouldn't have to ask anyone. The information already sits on a server with the NSA.

So Russia is nowhere near where the USA is. I still think it's wrong though - these people were not even in Russia. They were Ukrainians in Ukraine, so it was not Russia's business.

The question of interest is - is Russia going to try to emulate what the USA has done, or settle for something more manual, less obtrusive, and hopefully regulated by strict laws.

Originally Posted by Hanna

So Russia is nowhere near where the USA is. I still think it's wrong though - these people were not even in Russia. They were Ukrainians in Ukraine, so it was not Russia's business.

Juridically, that's wrong. If a person acts on a server which is located in Russia, de jure this person falls under the Russian laws. There is the same practice all over the world.

What, you mean because VKs servers were in Russia, they fell under Russian law, even if they were Ukrainians in Ukraine? I see the logic but I disagree with it.

If anyone ever plans to start a revolution over social media: Please get a trusted VPN first, in a different country than where you live. Pay with a non-traceable method, like bitcoin and don't use your real name!

I see the logic but I disagree with it.

It doesn't matter you agree or disagree. You must humble yourself, because that's a general (worldwide) rule.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

It doesn't matter you agree or disagree. You must humble yourself, because that's a general (worldwide) rule.

Do not forget to treat forum members with respect, according to our forum rules.

Originally Posted by Hanna

What, you mean because VKs servers were in Russia, they fell under Russian law, even if they were Ukrainians in Ukraine? I see the logic but I disagree with it.

As Paul said, there aren't anything to agree or disagree. Just the law.

I've had a look at the VK's User Agreement. It says the following:

2.2. Все права на Сайт в целом и на использование сетевого адреса (доменного имени) vk.com принадлежат Администрации Сайта. Последняя предоставляет доступ к Сайту всем заинтересованным лицам в соответствии с настоящими Правилами и действующим законодательством Российской Федерации.

3.1. Под Администрацией Сайта ВКонтакте (ранее и далее – Администрация Сайта, Администрация) в настоящих Правилах и иных специальных документах, размещенных на Сайте, понимается Общество с ограниченной ответственностью «В Контакте», юридическое лицо, созданное по законодательству Российской Федерации и зарегистрированное по адресу: 191040, Санкт-Петербург, Лиговский пр., д. 61, литер А.

VK Administration is a legal entity registered under the jurisdiction of Russia. So it must act in accordance with Russian laws.
Durov can argue that there is no law which obliges them to disclose private user information to the State in that situation (court's decision required etc). But if he argues that "we cannot betray our Ukrainian users", that is pointless.

Originally Posted by RedFox

As Paul said, there aren't anything to agree or disagree. Just the law.

I've had a look at the VK's User Agreement. It says the following:

2.2. Все права на Сайт в целом и на использование сетевого адреса (доменного имени) vk.com принадлежат Администрации Сайта. Последняя предоставляет доступ к Сайту всем заинтересованным лицам в соответствии с настоящими Правилами и действующим законодательством Российской Федерации.

3.1. Под Администрацией Сайта ВКонтакте (ранее и далее – Администрация Сайта, Администрация) в настоящих Правилах и иных специальных документах, размещенных на Сайте, понимается Общество с ограниченной ответственностью «В Контакте», юридическое лицо, созданное по законодательству Российской Федерации и зарегистрированное по адресу: 191040, Санкт-Петербург, Лиговский пр., д. 61, литер А.

VK Administration is a legal entity registered under the jurisdiction of Russia. So it must act in accordance with Russian laws.
Durov can argue that there is no law which obliges them to disclose private user information to the State in that situation (court's decision required etc). But if he argues that "we cannot betray our Ukrainian users", that is pointless.

Ok, I get that - but what Russia did in this instance is similar to what the US does with Facebook, which I object to.
I.e. they abuse the fact that Facebook's main servers are in the USA to spy on users, for example Europeans and Canadians.

Here, Russia takes advantage of the fact that VKs servers happen to be in Russia, to spy on what Ukrainians do in Ukraine... I don't agree with that. If Russia needs to keep track of terrorists within their own borders, that's one thing. But this is only one step down from the routine spying that the USA does.

And I am worried that there will be some kind of "cold war escalation" online and every country will feel they must follow in the footsteps of the USA and start spying on their own citizens and perceived enemies online.
That seems to be what Russia is doing in this case. It's not like Euromaidan was planning to invade Russia. They were not a threat to Russia.

Russian law is to impinge on Russians' rights and Ukrainians', whether in Russia or Ukraine. There's also recent news of a likely ban on Facebook and Twitter?

There is considerable progress on more widespread denial of rights on Russian citizens. Of course, they want to read what Ukrainians are saying on vk. Kremlin-friendly oligarchs also control vk now.

VK (social network) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and a trio of Russian investors, Vyacheslav Mirilashvili ( Mikhael Mirilashvili's family) and Lev Leviev (not from Africa-Israel Investments),[11] own 60%, 10% and 10% respectively.[12] The company is now completely owned by offshore firm Doraview Limited, based in the British Virgin Islands

Head of Russia’s largest social network VKontakte leaves his post — RT News
Today VKontakte was transferred under the full control of Igor Sechin and Alisher Usmanov,” Durov said, referring to a recent rift the company had with authorities.

Putin allies take over Russia’s Facebook; founder ousted by Kremlin - The Margin - MarketWatch
Sechin and Usmanov are no strangers to the Kremlin and have close ties to the Russian elite. Sechin is a top boss at state-owned oil company Rosneft and Putin’s former deputy chief of staff. Usmanov, the richest man in Russia according to Forbes’ billionaire list, made his fortune in the iron-ore and steel business, and is now a major investor in telecom and media firms such as Megaphone (Russia’s second-largest phone operator), Kommersant (one of Russia’s biggest business dailies) and Facebook.

VKontakte CEO ousted in favour of Putin allies

Just like the NSA? Russia is just as bad as the U.S. but the sugarcoating one can read about it (i.e. the Kremlin/security/surveillance etc.) is downright laughable.

I'm bumping this because of a recent report on Durov. He's in 'exile' now. Russia is a great place for having similar rights to the West!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/te...ses-exile.html

I also had a good chuckle reading the previous posts. Of course, the West has problems with democracy - they are hypocritical but at least, many people note this and criticize it. But, with regards to Russia, both those who live there and even Westerners who are Kremlin/Putin apologists make excuses or defend Russia's actions. Which is in complete contradiction when they single out America for the same faults/flaws. HENCE, the example of the attitude and mentality of illogical and unrational thinking. Спасибо.

Without further adieu, let's look at these findings:
VK (social networking website) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In January 2014, VK's founder Pavel Durov sold his 12% stake in the company to the CEO of Megafon, which is controlled by Alisher Usmanov. Following the deal, Usmanov and his allies control around 52% of the company.[12] Shortly thereafter, the CEO of Megafon, sold his 12% stake to Mail.ru, thus allowing mail.ru to consolidate their controlling stake of 52% in VK.[13]

On September 16, 2014, the Mail.ru group bought the remaining 48% stake of VK from Blesmir Development and Palagon, thus becoming the sole proprietor of the social network.


“Russian Facebook” founder flees country after being forced out as CEO | Ars Technica


https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ing-them.shtml


https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...kontakte.shtml

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...andidate.shtml

Bottom line: Durov refused to censor content or provide private details so he was forced out of controlling interest. The Kremlin is acting more like the West everyone hates here – controlling social networks and internet – but many people who excuse Russia's actions are ignorant or indifferent to these facts. No surprise, though.

Russian Email Giant Takes Over VKontakte, 'Russia's Facebook'

How Putin's cronies seized control of Russia's Facebook | The Verge

Mail.Ru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Putin Goes After Bloggers, Not Profits | Opinion | The Moscow Times

In Front of Putin, Internet Titans Lose Their Nerve | Opinion | The Moscow Times

Russians could assert having freedoms once upon a time, regarding the internet, but the Kremlin clamps down nowadays and if they really want to, they pursue censorship and removing freedoms. So, concentrated media, propaganda, spying on internet users and controlling their expression (mostly, those who have different or contrary/opposing ideas - they don't care about zombies who parrot the same or significantly similar rhetoric).

For all the Kremlin's anti-West talk, they are taking the same playbook and moving it up a notch!

Since Durov handed over control of VKontakte to Putin's crony Kremlin friends, the social networking company is now controlled and monitored by the FSB.

http://zn.ua/TECHNOLOGIES/vkontakte-...y-152462_.html
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/...ml&prev=search
''ВКонтакте'', Яндекс и Мail.Ru начали ''сливать'' ФСБ данные о своих пользователях | Украинская правда
Павел Дуров заявил о давлении на него со стороны ФСБ и Генпрокуратуры, которые требуют заблокировать ряд сообществ - Газета.Ru | Общество

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-1...s-control.html

Originally Posted by Hanna

That is WRONG. If Durov tried to prevent FSB from getting the details of Euromaidan organisers from Vkontakte, then he did right.

Also, I know that lots of people here don't like Navalny - but surely he should have the right to set up a group on VK if he wants.

Durov had a choice to make. He made it and he moved to the US. There are a few possibilites:

1. He refused to release the personal content of Euromaidan organizers to the FSB because:
---- A. He supported the planned coup.
---- B. He was a dreamer like Snowden.
2. He knew he was outgunned by Sechin and Usmanov and he wanted an easy out.
3. It's an April Fools day scam and he wanted pro-Putin supporters to have more than 50% control of VK (compensation to be found later in a Swiss bank account).

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I also had a good chuckle reading the previous posts. Of course, the West has problems with democracy - they are hypocritical but at least, many people note this and criticize it. But, with regards to Russia, both those who live there and even Westerners who are Kremlin/Putin apologists make excuses or defend Russia's actions. Which is in complete contradiction when they single out America for the same faults/flaws. HENCE, the example of the attitude and mentality of illogical and unrational thinking. Спасибо.

I don't see any reason to be an apologist. And I don't see anything to excuse or defend.
When Snowden violated our National Security and exposed the NSA program, President Putin called PRISM a "workable idea". And I agree.
Your argument fails by assuming that everyone at the forum is a civil rights activist that denounces espionage for the sake of National Security interests. That wouldn't be me.
Imo, requesting personal content of Euromaidan organizers in Ukraine was a reasonable request. And as Hanna pointed out, if the information was already available, they wouldn't need to make that request.
For whatever reasons, Durov failed to support the FSB and the National Security interests of his country. So now he's living in self-proclaimed exile in the country of his choice - a country where there is no internet privacy, period.
My take - if you're not a threat to your own country or a criminal then you don't have anything to hide.
I don't have much respect for Durov or Snowden.

Wow, I even had no idea about those FSB search activities at all! That's actually pushing the limits of the good and evil. But here's the funny thing, if the intelligence service (!) of a certain country is so curious about ordinary people in another country, who did nothing apart from overthrowing their dictator president's rule, then would it be so hard to figure out who had been behind that dictator president for all those years prior to the mentioned events?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

.I don't see any reason to be an apologist. And I don't see anything to excuse or defend.
When Snowden violated our National Security and exposed the NSA program, President Putin called PRISM a "workable idea". And I agree.
Your argument fails by assuming that everyone at the forum is a civil rights activist that denounces espionage for the sake of National Security interests. That wouldn't be me.
Imo, requesting personal content of Euromaidan organizers in Ukraine was a reasonable request. And as Hanna pointed out, if the information was already available, they wouldn't need to make that request.
For whatever reasons, Durov failed to support the FSB and the National Security interests of his country. So now he's living in self-proclaimed exile in the country of his choice - a country where there is no internet privacy, period.
My take - if you're not a threat to your own country or a criminal then you don't have anything to hide.
I don't have much respect for Durov or Snowden.

(Вытерто. Л.) You also don't seem to understand what happened with Durov and VK. If you would have bothered to read the articles I posted, you'd know that the FSB practically 'own' VK and have access to people's accounts. Durov didn't want to allow the government to do this and decided to leave when he risked arrest and seizure. I am not defending him since he's probably just a businessman who is trying to pretend a high moral ground but what is important here is that Russia has infiltrated information that ordinary people have which is probably a violation somewhere? Apologists like yourself like to portray Russia as somehow more 'moral' or just than the United States but this is another proof that these two countries have more in common than you would like to admit.

Edit: 'Imo, requesting personal content of Euromaidan organizers in Ukraine was a reasonable request.' - Okay, Mr. Fascist.... LOL! So, I guess freedoms in the USA are important but not anywhere else? Okay, duly noted. It's peculiar that Putin supporters are often hypocrites when you get down to the nitty gritty.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/te...ses-exile.html
"The Internet was once seen as a way to diversify Russia’s economy beyond oil. When VKontakte started in 2006, Mr. Durov says, he envisioned his country as a tax-free and libertarian utopia for technologists.

“The best thing about Russia at that time was the Internet sphere was completely not regulated,” he said. “In some ways, it was more liberal than the United States.”

Now the Internet is viewed with suspicion by Mr. Putin, who has called it a “C.I.A. project” and has taken steps to insulate Russia from the rest of the digital world. One leading Russian activist recently said the government was on a “campaign to shut down the Internet.”"

http://calvertjournal.com/news/show/...to-the-kremlin

It's funny that Putin has actually made the internet worse for Russians yet many support him in droves. Quite the ironic but illogical reality there.