Maybe 99% should stop driving with SUVs to gym to run on a treadmill?Quote:
With approximately 5% of the world's population, the United States is responsible for approximately 25% of annual global oil consumption and according to 2008 estimates has a per-person daily consumption rate more than double that of the European Union, whose population is significantly greater.
Anyway - I think that these 99% already live too good (and above their means) - and their living standards should be lower...
Wow - who decides how low other peoples living standards should be lowered to?Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Scott
Лучше не "who", а "зачем". В каменный век что ли начать возвращаться?Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheether
Well, people themselves should. In a controlled way - to conserve resources.Quote:
Wow - who decides how low other peoples living standards should be lowered to?
Otherwise, shortage of resources, war, famine, diseases, etc will do it for them.
And their growing debt and deficit shows that americans are living way over their means.
And for everyone in the world to live as good as average 99% american - that's simply impossible - Earth does not have that much resources.
LOL!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
I'll wait for Al Gore and Michael Moore to "lead" the way by example.Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Scott
That's sad, but would anyone give up a part of their salary, for instance, because the employee on their left earns less and can't afford what they can?Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Totally agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
And there is so much corporate waste in every area.
I was forced to fly twice last week to attend meetings in the morning. If the meetings had been in the afternoon, I could have taken the train. Nobody seemed to care, even after I pointed it out, I had to do it again and I don't feel confident enough right now to refuse.
My view at the moment is of a large corporate building. They've left all the lights on over the weekend, and I can see screens flaring. One massive and totally un-necessary waste of energy.
Both un necessary business flights and un necessary energy waste by corporations should simply be made illegal and punishable if companies breach it.
Two flights per employee per year is more than enough. More phone conferences, video conferences and train journeys.
If I was forced to consume less, I probably wouldn't enjoy it at first. But I can hardly argue that it wasn't needed or in the best long term interest of myself, future generations and the earth as a whole.
It's a very unhealthy and dangerious situation that developing countries are now aspiring to the same standards as the Western world. Sadly, the Earth as a whole cannot afford resource-wise for them to have it. Rather, it is we that should consume less.
In terms of consumption, didn't the USSR actually have it quite right, I mean that nobody was really poor or starving, but nobody able to consume in excess either? I think that earth might be able to just about support the level of consumption that existed there.... Or am I wrong?
Another comparison would be the way that Americans lived in the 1950s.... or had things already gone overboard by then?
In the USSR everyone had come all the way from being poor and starving at the same time (the 1930s - 1940s) to just being poor (1950s +). While those in power had every opportunity to consume whatever much they just wished.
If I was forced to live my life how somebody (not me) saw it (like telling me how much I should consume, that is what I should buy for my own money), I would be trying to take down those mad dictators by any means, and I believe I would have loads of supporters.
Well, I suspect that it's probably not YOUR consumption that is out of proportions.
I am talking about corporations, their executives, people who inherited wealth or made it fast through banking, or shady affairs.
People who have massive houses, larger than they reasonably need, in several locations. People who drive everywhere and have multiple expensive cars in one family. Who fly on lots of expensive holidays every year, who eat excessively, have walk-in closets full of clothes they'll only use once or twice and buy endless quantities of gadgets and stuff that they don't need.
Why should you stand up for such people's right to continue to consume like greedy pigs until the earth is devoid of resources and ecologically ruined?
You have one life, and it's your choice to spend it on being a "greedy pig" receiving as much enjoyment from it as you can, or a boring moralist refraining from everything for somebodies you don't even know. It's ok. What I actually stand for is this choice being personal and voluntary, and not imposed on anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Are you suggesting the Earth can avoid this scenario under some conditions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Аж слезу выжал... Attachment 232Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Лампаде понравится.
Oh dear, what has life done to you, to make you such an egoistical and totally self-centred individual?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Never mind people of the future, your own potential children and grandchildren.... Let them live in a polluted wasteland in the future, so that the elites of today can take a few extra trips to the Maldives, have a plasma screen in every room and five sports cars... The ironic fact that you yourself can't afford this and probably never will, seems to have escaped you.
Since solidarity isn't your cup of tea, do you remember the simple message of Jesus: Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
How would you feel if previous generations had made your life a living hell through their arrogance, egoism and foolishness?
I am certainly not saying I have a fool proof way of avoiding it, but limiting excessive consumption should be a good start. During the war, they rationed food and clothing, so that the distribution would be fair in a sparce economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Something like that could be applied to activities and products that are bad for the economy. Like cars, flights and gadgets.
If americans do not want to limit fuel consumption now - then prices like 20$ per litre will do it for them later.
And then they will sell their hummers for scrap metal...
10 years ago fuel here was 3x cheaper than it is now.
In 2000 fuel (95 gasoline) price in Latvia was about 0,60$ per litre - now - 1,80$ per litre.
And it will not get cheaper.
You see, it's not that simple. A Hummer can theoretically also run on a renewable fuel like biodiesel or use some other eco-friendly stuff like fuel cells where the electricity to split hydrogen was obtained from water/wind turbines installed in some very remote areas. I think I mentioned it a couple of times in this forum, but, there's a HUGE difference between limiting the level of consumption and a way of securing it. Let me give you a simple example. Say, some 12,000 years ago the humanity grew in numbers and, as a result of the not-very-eco-friendly way of securing food (i.e. the hunting), the amount of food shrunk considerably causing a famine. That was a first global ecological catastrophe the humanity ever knew. So, two options came alive. First, limit the amount of consuming food (i.e. somebody had ceased to live). Second, move to the agricultural civilization and go on eating and grow in numbers. Apparently, the humanity went the second way. Consequently, several other ecological disasters loomed over the millenia. Like, people could no longer burn the forests before planting their grain and move on burning other forests, but rather switch to the more settled way and just swap fields rather than constantly looking for new ones. Even in the beginning of the 20th century there was danger of famine as the land was unable to sustain that many people. So, the fertilizers were invented and used. And later on a similar problem was solved by means of the GM-food. And each and every time the humanity was faced with the request to limit consumption and yet it went on and on evading the dangers. So, now you're saying the "1,80$ per litre" would do the trick? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Hanna,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Why don't you move to North Korea? I think that they already have what you're looking for.
Also, is your use of the term "un necessary" instead of "unnecessary" a British English thing?
Scott
In hindsight maybe that last sentence should be changed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
This should be interesting:
OWS Protesters Calling For 'Day Of Action' Following Loss Of Camp In Zuccotti Park
Scott
Interesting - how foreign corporations are operating in Russia - do they have to pay bribes too?
Of course, they do.Quote:
Interesting - how foreign corporations are operating in Russia - do they have to pay bribes too?
Throwing stuff at policemen will not win the heart and minds of most Americans:
Violence Escalates At 'Occupy' Protests In New York City | Fox News
Scott
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheether
Would it be somewhat criminal if I wanted to shut them down?Quote:
We wanted to shut down business as usual. I think we've done that.
Some small businessmen in the area are now protesting the occupiers:
Downtown Workers in NYC Take on 'Occupy' Protesters - Fox News Video - Fox News
Funny sign: "Occupy a Desk!"
Scott
Are these the goals of the occupiers???
Blog: What does Occupy Wall Street Want?
I found some here:
99 Percent Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Liberty Square Blueprint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You folks that support this movement what do you think of these goals?
Scott
LOLWUT? Is this some kind of a joke?Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheether
In other words - we do not want to work, let them rich feed us.
- Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
- Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.
- Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.
- Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.
- Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
- Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.
- Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
- Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
- Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.
- Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.
- Allow workers to elect their supervisors.
- Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.
- Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.
- Ban the private ownership of land.
- Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.
- Reduce the age of majority to 16.
- Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.
- Release all political prisoners immediately.
- Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
- Abolish the debt limit.
- Ban private gun ownership.
- Strengthen the separation of church and state.
- Immediate debt forgiveness for all.
- End the 'War on Drugs'.
I thought better of these clowns. This is ridiculous!
Thank you Russian tax payers for subsidizing a TV channel that reports the reality about these demonstrations, instead of the propaganda version that they are crazy hooligans or lazy hippies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-05SXCXIrUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvDd8KnpuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDBsOjdBGk
Look at it from a different perspective:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
This is a country that can afford to start neo colonial wars on a bi-annual basis, that is pouring money and aid over corrupt dictatorships and that has filthy rich people who have never worked a day in their lives. It thinks it has a moral right to tell other countries what to do and it uses regular citizens money to save incompetent and corrupt banks and bank directors.
Yet, in this country sick citizens are not guaranteed treatment, a decent education is a class privilege and hundreds of thousands are homeless and millions are living in poverty.
Of course something is wrong! Yes, there are lazy free-riders in this world, but there are also greedy thieves who will stop at no amount of immoral behaviour to stuff their own pockets. Unfortunately America has a lot of such people, and unfortunately these people also have the backing of the US military, police and media.
I think the OWS are right to protest and should continue until the elections in order to try to really make a difference.
If regular Americans finally wake up to the sorry state they've been lead into by banks and corporations, it would be a really good thing.
Welcome to the club bro! xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I'm glad your eyes are open now.
"Let them rich feed us" - as far as I understand, the "rich" will be those with max salary of $90 an hour. LOL
Which are being planned to be taxed up to 90%. Now do simple math, and finally realize, fellow Americans, all they want is everyone making no more than $40,000 a year ($20 an hour). In fact, they want to take away (basically, steal) YOUR money and YOUR property! Would you sign up for this retarded commie manifesto?
Here we have some bolshevik ideologists...Quote:
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
And a bunch of Spanish speaking comrades. xDQuote:
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US
LOL. Such predictable red comrades.Quote:
Ban the private ownership of land.
Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.
While it's not banned, try tresspassing my lands with some bad intentions and see what happens. xDQuote:
Ban private gun ownership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
No, America has not been lead into the sorry state it's in by banks and corporations. It is by big government and socialist types that take money from those that earned it and give it to those that have not earned it. They then pass along to their next generation that the government owes them a check. They then keep voting for democrats that do not care about the country but their next election cycle. Yes republicans do it also. I have no problem helping the helpless, I have a problem helping the clueless:
Obama Money - Where Did it Come From? - YouTube
Those people that are waiting for the government to pay their rent and fill up their gas tanks:
Obama Is Going To Pay For My Gas And Mortgage!!! - YouTube
The problem is not Obama - the problem is this is now a country that a majority of people can support someone like Obama. If regular Europeans would open their eyes and see the socialist type governments and policies crumbling all around them and realizing that it won't work - ever. They should stop trying to have the USA follow them. You jumped off the cliff yourself - no we don't want to follow you. If regular Americans would wake up and see what the big government types are shoving down their throats it would be a really good thing. America can get back to the values it had - vote out the big government types - move them out of the way, let America prosper again.
You can go ahead and blame the banks but you'd be ignorant to ignore the government pulling the strings:
Articles: Making Homes Affordable Makes Others Poor
You can go ahead and blame the corporations but how can GE 14 billion and not pay any taxes? The government lets them:
General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010 - ABC News
You can go ahead and say the occupiers are peaceful and nice (I'm sure some of them are) but the reality is different:
http://biggovernment.com/jjmnolte/20...-sheet-so-far/
Scott
So you are saying that banks and corporations are innocent and the real problem is that the US is too "socialist".
Well, I really don't know how to comment on that. You and I do not have the same worldview at all. You might as well say that the sun is blue.
But I am intrigued to watch how much violence and censorship is used around this protest.
Had any other country (one that the US does not like) used similar tactics against protesters, then the US would have been talking about human right abuses and unfree media.
Was it only me who found this self-centered and hypocritical?Quote:
You and I do not have the same worldview at all. You might as well say that the sun is blue.
http://www.cleanupwashington.org/doc.../RevovDoor.pdf.
Revolving door between the US Government and Industry.
American Policy Center .
Revolving Door: 1,447 Former Government Workers Lobbying For Wall Street | Common Dreams.
Monsanto employees and government regulatory agencies employees are the same people!.
Government-industry revolving door - SourceWatch.
Revolving Regulators: SEC Faces Ethics Challenges with Revolving Door.
And on and on and on and more and more and more. The amount of material about these things is so great that you could never get to the end of it...If you don't know who drives the political machine by now and runs big gov, maybe you never will.
Well - many people in Latvia earn 20$ per day, not per hour...Quote:
all they want is everyone making no more than $40,000 a year ($20 an hour)
minimum wage here is about 280$ per month after taxes.
So I would be really glad to be as poor as average 99% american.
No, actually you would be saying that the sun is blue. From your posts here is seems that you have a very left winged view. That's fine, but I don't understand it at all. I am a proud American conservative. You can still believe the left wing media's misinformation about conservatives all that you want but the reality is different. As for your questions, did you read the links? If a bank is forced by the government to give mortgages to people that can't afford mortgages, how is it the banks fault? The USA now has a lot of people that feel they don't have to earn a living but can live off of the government. There is no Obama or any other politician "stash" of money - It is mine and my follow Americans that work, hard earned money. Liberal/socialists believe they can spend my money for the benefit of their careers and I am tired of it. I hope most of my fellow Americans agree and wipe these slime bags out of office and replace them with fiscal conservatives. Yes like Ronald Reagan. This in my opinion is what America needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Scott
Just don't forget that this may come with increased social inequality, higher criminal rate and no social protection (like pension)Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheether
Balance is the key
Wiping away the slime bags will cause all that? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomer
Scott
Having right radicals in government will cause thatQuote:
Originally Posted by fortheether
So - I - working man - should pay some bum that does not want to work, otherwise he will steal my bike or rob my apartment?Quote:
Just don't forget that this may come with increased social inequality, higher criminal rate and no social protection (like pension)
Balance is the key
Don't tell me that this is a surprise for youQuote:
Originally Posted by nulle
Don't tell me that you don't do that now - you paying 25% (min) to Latvian government as taxes and it's up to them what to do with your taxes, Latvia as not ultra right it's very liberal
