Occupy Wall Street around the world.... Your thoughts and feelings about it!

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Originally Posted by Ramil

O'RLY? Revolution or talks about Revolution? [...] The protesters can stay there and protest for years... so? These evil bankers will simply ignore them.

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Well, if I were a politician, I would say something like: "The extremist wing of the protesters is trying to ride the wave and highjack the attention by shouting their extremist slogans which do not even express the sentiment of the majority of the crowd. However, by insulting the rest of the public, the extremists provoke the public and the police to finally take some actions and contemplate to use that process to elevate the protest into a new level switch the peaceful protest into something more violent ultimately dreaming for a Revolution similarly to the recent Middle-East events." :instruct:

But, since I'm not a politician, but just a simple-minded crocodile, I can only observe the change in tone of someone's posts... ;) Getting too frustrated with the public which find comfort in their collective denial? ;)

I predict that people will soon get tired and walk home. Their numbers will erode and so will the morale of those, more committed. These protests will cease by Christmas, I think.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

I predict that people will soon get tired and walk home. Their numbers will erode and so will the morale of those, more committed. These protests will cease by Christmas, I think.

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Ah, that's exactly what the evil bankers want. But no!111111111 People would stay and burn overnight fires in the snow-covered squares sitting around the fire solemnly silent dressed in shabby clothes as in a futuristic apocalyptic Hollywood movie. Of course, the countless love dramas would happen between some of the protesters and many would remember these days as the most romantic days of their lives... :D

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, if I were a politician, I would say something like: "The extremist wing of the protesters is trying to ride the wave and highjack the attention by shouting their extremist slogans which do not even express the sentiment of the majority of the crowd. However, by insulting the rest of the public, the extremists provoke the public and the police to finally take some actions and contemplate to use that process to elevate the protest into a new level switch the peaceful protest into something more violent ultimately dreaming for a Revolution similarly to the recent Middle-East events." :instruct:

But, since I'm not a politician, but just a simple-minded crocodile, I can only observe the change in tone of someone's posts... ;) Getting too frustrated with the public which find comfort in their collective denial? ;)

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Скромные крокодилы живут дольше чем гордые политические деятели! --> So, who's *really* simple-minded, at the end of the day? =)

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Originally Posted by kidkboom

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...30913910_n.jpg

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It's easy to say what you're against. What are you for? What changes are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by kidkboom

Скромные крокодилы живут дольше чем гордые политические деятели! --> So, who's *really* simple-minded, at the end of the day? =)

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Well, it's subjective. A galapagos tortoise in captivity lived 170 years. Do you want to change places with that turtle? ;)

This whole thread (as well as the "Tea Party" movement) makes me think of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nomes_plan.png


...and also this:

http://magicanimation.com/misc/Sidne...MiracleWeb.jpg

It's easy to say Жизнь была бы настолько лучше, если бы у нас (не) было... ("Life would be so much better, if we had/didn't have...")

But if you have absolutely no clue how to get from our current condition to the Bright New Tomorrow without making things worse (which, I think, is true of most OWS protesters and most Tea Party protesters), then you're not really doing anything useful.

Throbert, I couldn't respond to this in debate fashion.. I was far too busy being cracked up by your sense of humor

Awesome

I hear occupiers complaining about Wall Street bonuses but don't hear any complaining about this:

Solyndra Execs Reaped Bonuses Before Bankruptcy, Documents Show | Fox News

More hypocrisy?

Scott

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Originally Posted by fortheether

I hear occupiers complaining about Wall Street bonuses but don't hear any complaining about this:

Solyndra Execs Reaped Bonuses Before Bankruptcy, Documents Show | Fox News

More hypocrisy?

Scott

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Well, I guess there's some to be heard now*)

@nulle - I travelled by train all the way which is much more environmental than any other mode of transport. The only exception was the ferry trip across the Baltic Sea, and a few routes where I went by coach or marshrutka. This was deliberate. I really don't like flying and avoid flying as much as I can. But I have never said that I am not part of the hypocrisy - I am , only perhaps a bit less than some people. But I am not ready to go and live in a rural eco commune or something like that.

After returning to Sweden after a very long time away I am really sad to see that it has turned into a country like all the others in Western Europe. Privatization has ruined the previously excellent public transport. Stockholm is suffering from an accommodation shortage after the publically owned housing societies were privatized. Large corporations that are allowed to run schools for profit have sprung up. Swedish banks could not keep their fingers away from the new untapped markets in the East and did huge damage to themselves and national finances. Not to mention those people who were cheated into irresponsible lending. All the ideals that existed while I grew up are forgotten or considered outdated. No country is immune to the greed and globalisation it seems.

Banks and a very small group of people can do what they like and the rest have to serve them in varying degree of comfort or lack thereof.

I think the Occupy movement is right and I hope they can manage to formulate a manifesto and stick with it.

What do you think is the reason why Occupy does not exist in Russia yet? There are many injustices in Russia and a large part of the population have are poor and have very little prospects, while the money is rolling into a fairly narrow sector in some of the larger cities.

Would an Occupy movement be thrown out by the police or army, or would it be allowed? Do people sympathize? The RUssia Today channel gives quite sympathetic coverage to the protest, but what would it think if it took root in Russia too?

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

But, since I'm not a politician, but just a simple-minded crocodile...

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And if anyone believes you are simple minded... I have a great bridge to sell you in Brooklyn or maybe some swamp land in Florida would be better as there are more crocs there (or are there only gators there?). :wink:

There is something that people can do at a personal level, start an employee owned company. This allows you to make something like a firewall between you and the various predatory forces in the economy. Similar idea is a coop. but corporation gives you more flexibility. You can create company that has part of it's activity to provide services to members at reduced rates, by using buying power, bargaining power of bulk buying, &/or larger scale financing (lower rates). In other words, you can create company to do the things for your members that good government should be doing, but won't. If you have it together, you can start your own credit union or small bank, where legislation allows it. Think laterally.

OWS falls for the money? A Chill Descends On Occupy Wall Street By Fritz Tucker

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Originally Posted by Seraph

There is something that people can do at a personal level, start an employee owned company. This allows you to make something like a firewall between you and the various predatory forces in the economy. Similar idea is a coop. but corporation gives you more flexibility. You can create company that has part of it's activity to provide services to members at reduced rates, by using buying power, bargaining power of bulk buying, &/or larger scale financing (lower rates). In other words, you can create company to do the things for your members that good government should be doing, but won't. If you have it together, you can start your own credit union or small bank, where legislation allows it. Think laterally.

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To do so, they'd have to bring some money into it, but they don't have any, because they are not able/don't want/haven't gotten used at all to make it. Who are you telling this to?

I have been involved in start ups before. The cost for do-it your self is small. Who am I telling this to? (To whom am I telling this?) People with initiative and drive, that are not self defeating. Information is free. It's up to you.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

OWS falls for the money? A Chill Descends On Occupy Wall Street By Fritz Tucker

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That's funny.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

I have been involved in start ups before. The cost for do-it your self is small. Who am I telling this to? (To whom am I telling this?) People with initiative and drive, that are not self defeating. Information is free. It's up to you.

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They can use the $500,000 that they can't decide how to divvy up

http://countercurrents.org/tucker041111.htm




Scott

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Originally Posted by fortheether

They can use the $500,000 that they can't decide how to divvy up

http://countercurrents.org/tucker041111.htm




Scott

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Then they'll have to give it up. But is this what they really want? =)

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Then they'll have to give it up. But is this what they really want? =)

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I have no clue what they want. If anyone does please share it.

Scott

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Originally Posted by Seraph

There is something that people can do at a personal level, start an employee owned company

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This will make you a capitalist :D Really, you will start thinking in a completely different way. After some time you'll find out that all your employees are nothing more than a bunch of whiners who try to avoid any work. You'll start your race for higher profits. That's a sad fact. Money spoils people. No one is immune, unfortunately.

Ramil, my experience in companies gives me a different perspective. Companies can be started with very different founding principles. There is really no limitation on the founding principles, as long as they are legal. You could even start a company with anarchic principles included in the memorandum of agreement. The distinguishing feature of companies is the concept of limited liability. It is this feature that allows for the protection of members, and this is why I said it could allow people to create something like a 'firewall' between them and predatory forces. Corporations can be very practical solutions to problems. No over-reaching profit motive is needed, nor mandated. There is no requirement that corporations make any money. Usually a company would want to make something to pay operating expenses, but companies can be carried by the principals for years without any profit at all.

The most important things include clear decisions about what the members want the company to do, and the principles on which it is to be founded and operated, conflict resolution mechanisms, and some other things. You can get together with other like minded people and decide, or make one with just one person.

The real central point of a corporation is the concept of limited liability. It is because of this that some people buy property through a self owned company, to protect other assets from possible liabilities arising from the property. But you can make a company that does not own any significant property, and is simply used for purchasing and distribution, or just about anything you can think of, as long as it's legal. In this regard, companies can do things that ordinary people cannot, simply because a wide range of suppliers will only deal with companies/corporate clients.

Ceiling unlimited.

You sound as if we're living in two different worlds. I can imagine that you've witnessed such people, committed enough to the idea of protecting people from predatory capitalism that they were willing to invest their money and efforts into something without aiming at making more money, but I've never seen such an enthusiasm.
In order to think so, one should have enough money for satisfying all his primary needs (food, shelter, clothing) and not worry about them being in place in the future. But once a person reaches this level, greed take over. Well, perhaps, in America people are more altruistic in nature, I don't know. Here, in Russia, I've never seen anything like that. Oh, I heard some talks of it, but never seen any action that was pure and didn't have any hidden goal (like tax extemptions or things like that).
Well, then again, perhaps I'm too pessimistic about humans.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

Ramil, my experience in companies gives me a different perspective. Companies can be started with very different founding principles. There is really no limitation on the founding principles, as long as they are legal. You could even start a company with anarchic principles included in the memorandum of agreement. The distinguishing feature of companies is the concept of limited liability. It is this feature that allows for the protection of members, and this is why I said it could allow people to create something like a 'firewall' between them and predatory forces. Corporations can be very practical solutions to problems. No over-reaching profit motive is needed, nor mandated. There is no requirement that corporations make any money. Usually a company would want to make something to pay operating expenses, but companies can be carried by the principals for years without any profit at all.

The most important things include clear decisions about what the members want the company to do, and the principles on which it is to be founded and operated, conflict resolution mechanisms, and some other things. You can get together with other like minded people and decide, or make one with just one person.

The real central point of a corporation is the concept of limited liability. It is because of this that some people buy property through a self owned company, to protect other assets from possible liabilities arising from the property. But you can make a company that does not own any significant property, and is simply used for purchasing and distribution, or just about anything you can think of, as long as it's legal. In this regard, companies can do things that ordinary people cannot, simply because a wide range of suppliers will only deal with companies/corporate clients.

Ceiling unlimited.

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So, how many such companies have you been running? How much have you managed to achieve so far in terms of your understanding what companies should stand for?

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Originally Posted by Ramil

This will make you a capitalist :D Really, you will start thinking in a completely different way. After some time you'll find out that all your employees are nothing more than a bunch of whiners who try to avoid any work. You'll start your race for higher profits. That's a sad fact. Money spoils people. No one is immune, unfortunately.

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Could you please clarify how racing for profits is "spoiled"?

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Originally Posted by Ramil

You sound as if we're living in two different worlds. I can imagine that you've witnessed such people, committed enough to the idea of protecting people from predatory capitalism that they were willing to invest their money and efforts into something without aiming at making more money, but I've never seen such an enthusiasm.
In order to think so, one should have enough money for satisfying all his primary needs (food, shelter, clothing) and not worry about them being in place in the future. But once a person reaches this level, greed take over. Well, perhaps, in America people are more altruistic in nature, I don't know. Here, in Russia, I've never seen anything like that. Oh, I heard some talks of it, but never seen any action that was pure and didn't have any hidden goal (like tax extemptions or things like that).
Well, then again, perhaps I'm too pessimistic about humans.

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I'm realistic and understand no one is going to sacrifice their goals for someone else (with some very rare exceptions). It's the way we live on this planet and it's remaining this way as long as humanity exists. If you are pessimistic about it, you're gonna be pessimistic for the rest of your life.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Could you please clarify how racing for profits is "spoiled"?

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It can very well be this way if profits become your only goal. If the means would start justifying the ends in this race. If (rephrasing Marx) you'll be ready to commit any crime for the sake of 300% profit. This is what I call 'spoiled perception'. Money is not everything, and there are really things left in this world that money cannot buy.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

It can very well be this way if profits become your only goal. If the means would start justifying the ends in this race. If (rephrasing Marx) you'll be ready to commit any crime for the sake of 300% profit. This is what I call 'spoiled perception'. Money is not everything, and there are really things left in this world that money cannot buy.

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Now would you be so kind to describe what you mean by "crime"? Is that what laws consider as a crime or something else? If the former, I hope you do understand the "crime sets" by the laws are almost the same in each more or less civilized country. And my answer in this case will be no, I'm not going to commit any crime either for any profit or anything else. Again, if you mean the latter, could you explain what?

Please read
Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
.
Limited liability company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Limited liability corporations stand for what ever the principals want them to stand for. Start one then you will see for your self the inside of the process. What they can be about is just about anything you can imagine, as long as it is legal.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

Please read
Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
.
Limited liability company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Limited liability corporations stand for what ever the principals want them to stand for. Start one then you will see for your self the inside of the process and what they are really about.

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I will. But for now I think I should restate my question so that you understand what I was asking, "how much have YOU achieved on your way running such companies?"

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Originally Posted by Ramil

... Money is not everything, and there are really things left in this world that money cannot buy.

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and I agree with Ramil here. Some of the corporations I was involved with had nothing to do with profit/money.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

I have been satisfied with their performance.

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Ok, and how many of them have you been running?

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Now would you be so kind to describe what you mean by "crime"? Is that what laws consider as a crime or something else? If the former, I hope you do understand the "crime sets" by the laws are almost the same in each more or less civilized country. And my answer in this case will be no, I'm not going to commit any crime either for any profit or anything else. Again, if you mean the latter, could you explain what?

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So, in a country with *perfect* laws you could be right. But no such country exists. That's what I'm talking about, by the way, about 'spoiled perception'. Many hypocrites hide behind the word 'law' to calm their concience (or nightmares) - What? I'm not violating any laws, I'm a law abiding citizen, leave me alone. I could dig up for some examples of this, but I'm really not in the mood for that. I'm sure, you can see the picture. I'm talking about the situations when technically no law gets violated, but innocents suffer as a result of your actions.
There's more though. People do violate laws for money and the more you are rich and powerful the more chances you get to get away with it. I'm sure, you can find examples of this also.

So, are you trying to tell me that aiming strictly for profits and profits alone is good? No, you won't succeed, so don't waste your time. Money is not a bad thing by itself, it just enables some bad people to do bad things. Greed is sin. Remeber?

P.S. by the way, limited liability companies are the perfect instrument for avoiding liability (and quite frequently - responsibility). Yes, it works both ways - very flexible.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

You sound as if we're living in two different worlds. I can imagine that you've witnessed such people, committed enough to the idea of protecting people from predatory capitalism that they were willing to invest their money and efforts into something without aiming at making more money, but I've never seen such an enthusiasm.
In order to think so, one should have enough money for satisfying all his primary needs (food, shelter, clothing) and not worry about them being in place in the future. But once a person reaches this level, greed take over. Well, perhaps, in America people are more altruistic in nature, I don't know. Here, in Russia, I've never seen anything like that. Oh, I heard some talks of it, but never seen any action that was pure and didn't have any hidden goal (like tax extemptions or things like that).
Well, then again, perhaps I'm too pessimistic about humans.

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Please read.
History of the cooperative movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
.
Cooperative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Corporations are also able to do these things, without requiring great amounts of capital. If you get involved in these things, you'll find out where the capital drains are, and how to avoid them. For example, self incorporation allows people to start up without lawyers fees. And where business licenses are required and where they are not, and for what purposes.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

... Money is not a bad thing by itself, it just enables some bad people to do bad things. Greed is sin. Remember?

P.S. by the way, limited liability companies are the perfect instrument for avoiding liability (and quite frequently - responsibility). Yes, it works both ways - very flexible.

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No, limited liability corporations are not vehicles for avoiding responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

Please read.
History of the cooperative movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
.
Cooperative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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Your point?

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Originally Posted by Seraph

Corporations are also able to do these things, without requiring great amounts of capital.

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My friend, there is a huge difference between being able to and actually doing.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

No, limited liability corporations are not vehicles for avoiding responsibility.

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Attachment 227

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Your point? My friend, there is a huge difference between being able to and actually doing.

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I have seen it. Some of it in these things, co-ops, some in LLCs. These were small things, nothing like the big corporations that some people are complaining about, like BP or GS and the like.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Ok, and how many of them have you been running?

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Could you please stop asking personal questions?

Eugene (and Oregon) place to go for coops. And Anarchy.
.Under 'Community'...
"In the 1970s, Eugene was packed with cooperative and community projects. It still has small natural food stores in many neighborhoods, some of the oldest student cooperatives in the country, and alternative schools have been part of the school district since 1971. The old Grower's Market, downtown near the Amtrak depot, is the only food cooperative in the U.S. with no employees. It is possible to see Eugene's trend-setting non-profit tendencies in much newer projects, such as the Tango Center and the Center for Appropriate Transport. In 2006, an initiative began to create a tenant-run development process for Downtown Eugene.

In the fall of 2003, neighbors noticed that "an unassuming two-acre remnant orchard tucked into the Friendly Area Neighborhood"^[30] had been put up for sale by its owner, a resident of New York City.^[31] Learning that a prospective buyer had plans to build several houses on the property, they formed a non-profit organization called Madison Meadow^[32][33] in June 2004 in order to buy the property and "preserve it as undeveloped space in perpetuity."^[32] In 2007 their effort was named Third Best Community Effort by the Eugene Weekly,^[34] and by the end of 2008 they had raised enough money to purchase the property.^[30]" Continues on to 'Anarchy' ..."then-mayor Jim Torrey described the city as "the anarchist capital of the United States."

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More do as I say and not as I do:

Confirmed: Occupy Oakland loves banks

Scott

BBQ at Mikey's house for the occupiers?

Big Hollywood

Scott