Thread: Moscow, May 6th clashes on Bolotnaya square during "The Millions March"

Originally Posted by Ramil

Печально то, что в КПРФ сейчас нет коммунистов Ну, тех, про которых я читал и смотрел фильмы в детстве. Вот я за тех, а не за этих.

"Колышется простынь, подушки летят?"

Originally Posted by Hanna

I think this is true in most countries. The Communists in Western Europe concern themselves with things like feminism, supporting homosexuals and anti-racism, primarily..... not so much social justice and anti-imperialism. There are less intellectual people that are Communists. I can't take them seriously.

In Russia it is even worse. The so-called "communists" are endorsing Orthodox Christianity to even greater extent than the other parties (Zuganov promised to build many new churches in his presidential campain TV advertizing). They are also poisoned with anti-Semitism and nationalism (there were several scandals when top party officials were even criminally prosecuted for anti-Semitism). Their program calls for a legally defined special role for ethnic Russians. They are definitely anti-Gay and endorse strict Christian values. They also endorse Russian monarchy and seeking reconciliation with monarchists. The program of CPRF was written by Alexander Dugin, a former member of neo-Nazi group "Pamyat" and self-described fascist, but even Dugin (especially recently) seems moderate compared to some "Communists".

Originally Posted by Ramil

Печально то, что в КПРФ сейчас нет коммунистов Ну, тех, про которых я читал и смотрел фильмы в детстве. Вот я за тех, а не за этих.

Liberal system prevents parties that oppose private property from getting elected. If you say something against private property, you will loose all money you could get from business. Without getting money you cannot advertise and win elections.

Originally Posted by Anixx

In Russia it is even worse. The so-called "communists" are endorsing Orthodox Christianity to even greater extent than the other parties (Zuganov promised to build many new churches in his presidential campain TV advertizing). They are also poisoned with anti-Semitism and nationalism (there were several scandals when top party officials were even criminally prosecuted for anti-Semitism). Their program calls for a legally defined special role for ethnic Russians. They are definitely anti-Gay and endorse strict Christian values. They also endorse Russian monarchy and seeking reconciliation with monarchists. The program of CPRF was written by Alexander Dugin, a former member of neo-Nazi group "Pamyat" and self-described fascist, but even Dugin (especially recently) seems moderate compared to some "Communists".

Wow, they sound really mixed up!
Conservatism, religion and Christian values = Communism ?!!!

Originally Posted by Anixx

Liberal system prevents parties that oppose private property from getting elected. If you say something against private property, you will loose all money you could get from business. Without getting money you cannot advertise and win elections.

Well, that does not necessarily mean "prevents" it just means the parties which oppose private property should get their money from the other sources, not from the private business.

Originally Posted by Hanna

.

Have the demonstrators presented an agenda or a set of objectives or demands?

This time the demonstration was purposly obstructed by a chain provocations organized as many think by the authorities. Look on the picture Ramil posted eralier. You can see a row of policemen in helmets perfectly equipped. When I went to the December meeting which included much more people than in this time. And in December there were only ordinary dressed city policemen and we could leave the meeting whenever we wanted. So how come a lot of soldiers appeared this time? Why?
Now you can see the row of soldiers is locking the crowd and people cannot advance to the square where speakers were going to declare. Why? Well, while on the square speakers didn't have any time to say anything because they were captured and put in prison for resistance to authority, which actually never took place.

Now in other squares as I myself could see ( as I went there for a coulpe of hours), as soon as a single word of agenda was ever uttered policemen at once captured the speakers under different farfetched reasons: no right to share with your food and water for example.

And finally, when people just kept silence policemen all the same captured them for the reason that you are not allowed to sleep on streets.

I find it a bit hard today to express any demands.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Wow, they sound really mixed up!
Conservatism, religion and Christian values = Communism ?!!!

This is because CPRF (Communist Party of Russian Federation) is not a continuation of CPSU. CPSU has been disbanded in early 1990s.
As you know all other Soviet republics except Russia had their own communist parties, because possible Russian Communist party was considered dangerous due to Russian nationalism. CPRF was created only after perestroika in the late 1980s as a Russian separatist/secessionist party aimed against central Soviet authority. They supported the secession of the Russian Federation from the USSR, they also voted for the dissolution of the USSR in the Supreme Council.

The party ranks from the very beginning were occupied by nationalists and Russian traditionalists. After the dissolution of CPSU they remained the only Russian party which was "Communist" in name.

Ok, so what happened to the leaders of the Communist party in Soviet times? I mean, other than Gorbachev, I know what he did.. But what about the others, they can't all have retired... Are most of them still active politically, if so in what party? Or did they go into private business....?

Oops, I just realised: Conservativism in Russia is a completely different thing than in Britain, for example. I guess Conservativism in Russia is "back to the USSR" in some form or shape.... In that case, I can understand how the KPRF can call themselves Conservatives.

I think the USSR did many things really well, and it is a pity that those things were thrown out together with the stuff that people were sick off.
Education, sports programs for example, welfare for old people. That is my impression anyway.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok, so what happened to the leaders of the Communist party in Soviet times? I mean, other than Gorbachev, I know what he did.. But what about the others, they can't all have retired... Are most of them still active politically, if so in what party? Or did they go into private business....?

Differently. Some of them, I think, the majority, (Ligachev, Ryzhkov) entered CPRF but never reached prominent positions. Some of them (Primakov) initially joined opposition but aligned with the government after Putin came to power. Some of them abandoned communist views even before the breakup of the USSR. Still the middle-level functionaries mostly continued their carrier as before but under new banners.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Oops, I just realised: Conservativism in Russia is a completely different thing than in Britain, for example. I guess Conservativism in Russia is "back to the USSR" in some form or shape....

Yes. But all major parties more or less employ this agenda. "Back in the USSR" for many if just preservation of traditional values, family roles, patriotism, ban on "Western" things like homosexualism and gay propaganda, no legalized drugs, no sex education, ban on beer and tobacco advertisement for the youth, no sex on TV, no juvenile courts, strong military, veterans' and pensioneers' rights, no simplified choose-a-b-c-style exams, no revision of the WWII results, no propaganda against the Red Army, support for Russians in the neighboring countries, stricter anti-corruption laws and state control and so on.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Печально то, что в КПРФ сейчас нет коммунистов Ну, тех, про которых я читал и смотрел фильмы в детстве. Вот я за тех, а не за этих.

ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕ ?

Originally Posted by Anixx

Liberal system prevents parties that oppose private property from getting elected. If you say something against private property, you will loose all money you could get from business. Without getting money you cannot advertise and win elections.

This too, of course, but I meant something else. I think, it-ogo understood me perfectly:

Originally Posted by it-ogo

ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕ ?

There're no such people in CPRF right now. In fact, I don't think such people exist elsewhere either.

Originally Posted by Anixx

Yes. But all major parties more or less employ this agenda. "Back in the USSR" for many if just preservation of traditional values, family roles, patriotism, ban on "Western" things like homosexualism and gay propaganda, no legalized drugs, no sex education, ban on beer and tobacco advertisement for the youth, no sex on TV, no juvenile courts, strong military, veterans' and pensioneers' rights, no simplified choose-a-b-c-style exams, no revision of the WWII results, no propaganda against the Red Army, support for Russians in the neighboring countries, stricter anti-corruption laws and state control and so on.

.
Some of this stuff, I think is pretty good, I would support it myself... Other things I feel indifferent about. But if this is what conservativism in Russia is, and if the communist party supports that then that also makes me understand why some people said they planned to vote for the KPRF.
Why should Russia become another USA clone, like Western Europe is and Eastern Europe is becoming. Also, I can't see how it matters to private citizens whether certain large Russian corporation are owned by the state, or by some oligarch who keeps the profits in a Swiss bank and is generally corrupt... What I definitely would not support, if I was Russian, was any type of revolutionary communism.

Originally Posted by Hanna

lso, I can't see how it matters to private citizens whether certain large Russian corporation are owned by the state, or by some oligarch who keeps the profits in a Swiss bank and is generally corrupt...

Because it matters to about 106 million people whose income comes from the state budget and NOT from private enterprises.

Originally Posted by Hanna

.
Some of this stuff, I think is pretty good, I would support it myself... Other things I feel indifferent about. But if this is what conservativism in Russia is, and if the communist party supports that then that also makes me understand why some people said they planned to vote for the KPRF.
Why should Russia become another USA clone, like Western Europe is and Eastern Europe is becoming. Also, I can't see how it matters to private citizens whether certain large Russian corporation are owned by the state, or by some oligarch who keeps the profits in a Swiss bank and is generally corrupt... What I definitely would not support, if I was Russian, was any type of revolutionary communism.

As I already said, not only KPRF supports this agenda. There are other parties in this niche: Just Russia, LDPR as examples (LDPR leader Zhirinovsky frequently likes to recall that he voted against the dissolution of the USSR unlike the KPRF). Former Moscow major Yuri Luzhkov was also somewhat conservative although he was a member of United Russia. He went into conflict with president Medvedev over the portraits of Stalin during the May 9 celebrations. He also built some form of "socialism" in Moscow so that the pensioneers received good additions to their state pension and free transportation (as it was over the whole country under the USSR). He banned all gay pride parades in Moscow. He also provided free apartment repairs to anybody including those who lived in privatized flats. Normally the state is obliged only to repair state-owned flats. But after he was fired there were major accusations of corruption against him and his wife, an owner of a construction company, against the heads of Bank of Moscow and the Moscow metro, and district prefects. To say simply against all Luzhkov people. Many of them are imprisoned.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Wow, they sound really mixed up!
Conservatism, religion and Christian values = Communism ?!!!

Протоиерей Михаил Ардов: Русская Православная церковь создана Сталиным по образцу КПСС.

http://www.newizv.ru/society/2011-08...ail-ardov.html

Originally Posted by it-ogo

ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕ ?

Ну, ты меня завёл.. Ладно, вот наш ответ Керзону:

Есть в нашем времени обычном,
То, что не описать пером...
Как нам пространственно-привычно
В континууме временном!

А между тем, гордясь штрихами,
Дверные наши косяки
Взрастили то, чего стихами
Не мыслили большевики.

Они не знали, что Застоем
Гордится будем мы порой.
И что Трубу себе построим.
И думать будем о второй.

И что дороже Днепрогэса
Нам станут жвачка и джинса,
И социального прогресса -
На адидасах полоса.

Что калькулятор, ошарашив,
Напишет строгое ЕГГОГ.
И что слиняет много наших
Из Занавеса под шумок..

Что Чебурашкой станет манга,
Что перестанем пить втроём,
Как встретим уроженцев Ганга,
И код индусский их поймём.

И что такие многостишья
Мы можем долго продолжать..
И что колбасное затишье
Заменит кузькину нам мать.

В другие мы родились годы
Нас твёрдый шаг не потрясал.
Звон-дымы рухнувшей природы
Другие мысли навевал.

Мы с "дипломатом" шли по жизни:
В полосках синих полувЕр,
Со знаком качества Отчизны,
С клеймом "мадЕ в СССР."

(с)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

А между тем, гордясь штрихами,
Дверные наши косяки
Взрастили

убойная метафора

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Что Чебурашкой станет манга,
Что перестанем пить втроём,
Как встретим уроженцев Ганга,
И код индусский их поймём.

Круто! А что за индусский код нам довелось постичь
Затмение мозга, ничего кроме кривого софта в голове не "всплывает".
http://lurkmore.to/Индусский_код

Originally Posted by LXNDR

убойная метафора

Мерси. Рад, что тебе понравилось.

Originally Posted by diogen_

Круто! А что за индусский код нам довелось постичь
Затмение мозга, ничего кроме кривого софта в голове не "всплывает".
http://lurkmore.to/Индусский_код

Дык, оно и есть. Наш брат исправляет сии художества по мере возникновения.