Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by Hanna

The main example of this is the Baltic States where native Russian speakers are treated in a way that is totally unworthy of the EU, and nobody seems to care.
If you compare the situation there with the situation in Finland which is very close to the Baltic States, is a farily "new" country and has not really had an easy ride either.... yet they are handling the situation tremendously much better than the Baltics. In Finland, the bilingual situation is mostly considered to be something positive.

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

I don't see the logic in this reasoning. It is not Russian, but Swedish that is the second language. Sweden occupied Finland for quite a long time and did its best to switch languages in the country during this period. After that, Finland was again occupied, by Russia until 1917. Yet, the Finns can put their history aside and look at the present, not the past, and the benefits of being a bilingual country. I don't think the Winter War or the proximity to the ex USSR has anything to do with their choice when it comes to language policy. Just common sense!

but in the Baltic states Russian population predominantly consists of occupiers and their descendants

I think that is highly debatable!

From what I read, the Russians who moved to the Baltic states were workers who were told "There is a new factory, institute... whatever.... in Latvia (or wherever). You'll get this/that pay and a nice new flat - are you interested?" Understandably, some were.

And for all that they were aware, the USSR had liberated the Baltic states, nothing else. From their perspective, I doubt that they felt they were participating in any occupation.

I suppose some (a minority) were indeed occupiers, in that they were in the military. Most such people left there as soon as they could. I met a guy from this type of background in Belarus - his family essentially left everything behind and just cleared off to Minsk because they felt they were not welcome anymore. He felt a bit nostalgic about his lost childhood in Ventspils.

And finally - when I was in Daugavpils, I saw something that really p-d me off:
There was a huge EU sponsored project to restore an old fortress, which frankly seemed like nothing special to me. But right next to this fortress, in some apalling conditions, lived a pretty large community of ex Soviet military people. It was clear that they were totally impoverished, and likewise that the houses they lived in had not had any maintenance at all for the past 20 years. It was disgraceful! There is talk about how Belarus is a dictatorship and has no money - etc, etc - but I certainly saw nothing close to this in Belarus.

I feel strongly that the EU money should be used to renovate these people's houses, rather than rebuild a stupid fortress - surely that is a lower priority! Those children could catch dangerous illnesses living in such squalor.

And if Latvia or the EU won't step up to help these people, then frankly I think Russia has an obligation to do something - fix up their houses or offer them some kind of repatriation deal.

Again in Liepaja, I saw a similar situation - an ex-Soviet military town (called Karosta) which was in terrible state of repair. It was as if these people were simply abandoned by everyone and unable to sort something out themselves. To add to the farce, the whole place was touted as a tourist attraction to Germans and Scandis, on the grounds of having been a famous naval base of the USSR. But it was a complete dump, apart from a very quaint orthodox church.

Summary: The Russian speaking people in the Baltics, to a large extent are and were the lower strata of society - not conscious occupiers. IMHO!

Nevertheless you are right that the situations are not identical, and Latvia did at least go to the trouble of having a referendum about the matter (even if the outcome was rather predictable, in light of the balance between the groups).

But maybe a referendum might be something for the Ukraine to try, or what do you think?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't see the logic in this reasoning. It is not Russian, but Swedish that is the second language. Sweden occupied Finland for quite a long time and did its best to switch languages in the country during this period. After that, Finland was again occupied, by Russia until 1917. Yet, the Finns can put their history aside and look at the present, not the past, and the benefits of being a bilingual country. I don't think the Winter War or the proximity to the ex USSR has anything to do with their choice when it comes to language policy. Just common sense!

you can count the years of Finnish independence and compare the number to that of the Baltic states or other former soviet republics

usually it's very difficult and imprudent to put the history aside when it very much affects the present day and when the wounds haven't yet healed

Originally Posted by Hanna

But maybe a referendum might be something for the Ukraine to try, or what do you think?

as I said earlier constitutional reform is the only legal way to resolve this debate, so if a referendum on such reform is introduced I can't oppose that, I only know how I will vote should that happen

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Originally Posted by LXNDR

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

So that's how you justify the complete disregard of wishes and rights of at least 1/3 of Ukrainians? A so called "background" that gives someone right to treat people like second-grade citizens now since their mothers taught them the "wrong" language?

That's no way to build a democratic society. And since apparently EU silently approves it it's no wonder that many Ukrainians are very skeptical about democracy in general (too many double standards).

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So that's how you justify the complete disregard of wishes and rights of at least 1/3 of Ukrainians? A so called "background" that gives someone right to treat people like second-grade citizens now since their mothers taught them the "wrong" language?

i believe with this statement you're taking it too far

as i already pointed out my mother tongue is Russian, i'm not treated as a second grade citizen, if I am it's not because I speak Russian, but because this is how normally ALL citizens are treated by the corrupt system, no matter what language they speak (and many to be honest can't speak properly neither)

so far I've submitted quite a few petitions written in Russian to different organizations and local government bodies, not a single one was rejected, they were responded to in Ukrainian as the law orders
if they were rejected that would constitute law violation

normally i don't listen to radio, if i happen to hear it it's only in the public transportation playing at the driver, almost all music playing on the radio when i hear it is in Russian, there's even a nation wide radiostation called Русское радио, which exclusively plays music in Russian
when the 'oranges' came to power lots of Ukrainian music started being played on the radio, but those days are long gone.

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement