Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

especially if those countries are oriented towards European values, which arw`to

I just want to point out that modern "European values" includes respecting minority languages. All long time EU member states adhere to this - it's a big, big deal, for the precise reason that the effects of ignoring peoples' language preferences, or generally imposing a different language on people has caused so much problems and resentment in the past. If you move past that and let people choose for themselves, they will not feel pressured or resentful and they will end up with a lot more respect for a state that respects them. The Russian speakers might well choose to speak Ukrainian by their own device if they are let be rather than forced into it - which I believe would cause a backlash.

In Odessa, I saw some pro-Russian language provocative t-shirts and hats sold. There'd be no need for that in France, Spain, Italy, Finland where the minority languages are respected without throwing history etc in the face of people. They did not choose their mothertongue!

If you take Switzerland for example - because everyone's language is treated with respect, they usually end up bi or tri-lingual and feeling positive about all 3 languages. Same thing in Finland where the bilingual status is something most people are pleased and proud of.

For some reason Eastern Europe (not just the ex-USSR) doesn't seem to be interested in taking on these particular values. It is particularly clear when it comes to how Russian speakers are treated. Why the EU turns a blind eye to the situation in Latvia is an interesting question... Had something like this been going on in Germany, France or the UK it would be totally unacceptable to everyone involved. There are endless laws both at EU and state level to protect peoples right to use their local language in their local area.

I am not one to preach at others but I just don't get why it's such an issue to respect minority languages in Eastern Europe. Other countries in Europe take pride in it. For what it's worth - this seems to be a problem in several other parts of Eastern Europe, since plenty of people ended up on the "wrong" side of a border during the 20th century wars. These are not immigrants or occupiers - they were born there, and have always lived there.

I don't know to what degree the Russian Federation respects minority languages within its own borders, but I have a vague notion that it DOES in fact support a bilingual situation in areas that have another language.

Originally Posted by Hanna

For some reason Eastern Europe (not just the ex-USSR) doesn't seem to be interested in taking on these particular values.

because these nations are trying to establish themselves, or regain their footing, a process which Western Europe went through 100 some years ago
with these particular values Arabic has all the chances to soon become the second language in a number of Western European countries

Originally Posted by Hanna

It is particularly clear when it comes to how Russian speakers are treated.

what do you mean, Hanna?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am not one to preach at others but I just don't get why it's such an issue to respect minority languages in Eastern Europe. Other countries in Europe take pride in it. For what it's worth - this seems to be a problem in several other parts of Eastern Europe, since plenty of people ended up on the "wrong" side of a border during the 20th century wars. These are not immigrants or occupiers - they were born there, and have always lived there.

exactly so they've had no problem in learning the local language, it's taught in schools

my mother tongue is Russian, but I don't need it to become the second state language, why? maybe because I know Ukrainian as well

in any event the constitution guarantees language rights to all

but in the Baltic states Russian population predominantly consists of occupiers and their descendants

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't know to what degree the Russian Federation respects minority languages within its own borders, but I have a vague notion that it DOES in fact support a bilingual situation in areas that have another language.

Russian Federation is a federation therefore by its very design it must respect national languages of the federation members

Originally Posted by LXNDR

what do you mean, Hanna?

The main example of this is the Baltic States where native Russian speakers are treated in a way that is totally unworthy of the EU, and nobody seems to care.
If you compare the situation there with the situation in Finland which is very close to the Baltic States, is a farily "new" country and has not really had an easy ride either.... yet they are handling the situation tremendously much better than the Baltics. In Finland, the bilingual situation is mostly considered to be something positive.

its aggressiveness Russian state has demonstrated in a recent armed conflict with Georgia

There are two sides to this story as you well know.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The main example of this is the Baltic States where native Russian speakers are treated in a way that is totally unworthy of the EU, and nobody seems to care.
If you compare the situation there with the situation in Finland which is very close to the Baltic States, is a farily "new" country and has not really had an easy ride either.... yet they are handling the situation tremendously much better than the Baltics. In Finland, the bilingual situation is mostly considered to be something positive.

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

I don't see the logic in this reasoning. It is not Russian, but Swedish that is the second language. Sweden occupied Finland for quite a long time and did its best to switch languages in the country during this period. After that, Finland was again occupied, by Russia until 1917. Yet, the Finns can put their history aside and look at the present, not the past, and the benefits of being a bilingual country. I don't think the Winter War or the proximity to the ex USSR has anything to do with their choice when it comes to language policy. Just common sense!

but in the Baltic states Russian population predominantly consists of occupiers and their descendants

I think that is highly debatable!

From what I read, the Russians who moved to the Baltic states were workers who were told "There is a new factory, institute... whatever.... in Latvia (or wherever). You'll get this/that pay and a nice new flat - are you interested?" Understandably, some were.

And for all that they were aware, the USSR had liberated the Baltic states, nothing else. From their perspective, I doubt that they felt they were participating in any occupation.

I suppose some (a minority) were indeed occupiers, in that they were in the military. Most such people left there as soon as they could. I met a guy from this type of background in Belarus - his family essentially left everything behind and just cleared off to Minsk because they felt they were not welcome anymore. He felt a bit nostalgic about his lost childhood in Ventspils.

And finally - when I was in Daugavpils, I saw something that really p-d me off:
There was a huge EU sponsored project to restore an old fortress, which frankly seemed like nothing special to me. But right next to this fortress, in some apalling conditions, lived a pretty large community of ex Soviet military people. It was clear that they were totally impoverished, and likewise that the houses they lived in had not had any maintenance at all for the past 20 years. It was disgraceful! There is talk about how Belarus is a dictatorship and has no money - etc, etc - but I certainly saw nothing close to this in Belarus.

I feel strongly that the EU money should be used to renovate these people's houses, rather than rebuild a stupid fortress - surely that is a lower priority! Those children could catch dangerous illnesses living in such squalor.

And if Latvia or the EU won't step up to help these people, then frankly I think Russia has an obligation to do something - fix up their houses or offer them some kind of repatriation deal.

Again in Liepaja, I saw a similar situation - an ex-Soviet military town (called Karosta) which was in terrible state of repair. It was as if these people were simply abandoned by everyone and unable to sort something out themselves. To add to the farce, the whole place was touted as a tourist attraction to Germans and Scandis, on the grounds of having been a famous naval base of the USSR. But it was a complete dump, apart from a very quaint orthodox church.

Summary: The Russian speaking people in the Baltics, to a large extent are and were the lower strata of society - not conscious occupiers. IMHO!

Nevertheless you are right that the situations are not identical, and Latvia did at least go to the trouble of having a referendum about the matter (even if the outcome was rather predictable, in light of the balance between the groups).

But maybe a referendum might be something for the Ukraine to try, or what do you think?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't see the logic in this reasoning. It is not Russian, but Swedish that is the second language. Sweden occupied Finland for quite a long time and did its best to switch languages in the country during this period. After that, Finland was again occupied, by Russia until 1917. Yet, the Finns can put their history aside and look at the present, not the past, and the benefits of being a bilingual country. I don't think the Winter War or the proximity to the ex USSR has anything to do with their choice when it comes to language policy. Just common sense!

you can count the years of Finnish independence and compare the number to that of the Baltic states or other former soviet republics

usually it's very difficult and imprudent to put the history aside when it very much affects the present day and when the wounds haven't yet healed

Originally Posted by Hanna

But maybe a referendum might be something for the Ukraine to try, or what do you think?

as I said earlier constitutional reform is the only legal way to resolve this debate, so if a referendum on such reform is introduced I can't oppose that, I only know how I will vote should that happen

Государственные и официальные языки в субъектах
Список официальных языков России

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Finland luckily escaped the grim prospect of becoming another republic of the USSR through annexation, therefore with different background they can afford a more relaxed attitude

So that's how you justify the complete disregard of wishes and rights of at least 1/3 of Ukrainians? A so called "background" that gives someone right to treat people like second-grade citizens now since their mothers taught them the "wrong" language?

That's no way to build a democratic society. And since apparently EU silently approves it it's no wonder that many Ukrainians are very skeptical about democracy in general (too many double standards).

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So that's how you justify the complete disregard of wishes and rights of at least 1/3 of Ukrainians? A so called "background" that gives someone right to treat people like second-grade citizens now since their mothers taught them the "wrong" language?

i believe with this statement you're taking it too far

as i already pointed out my mother tongue is Russian, i'm not treated as a second grade citizen, if I am it's not because I speak Russian, but because this is how normally ALL citizens are treated by the corrupt system, no matter what language they speak (and many to be honest can't speak properly neither)

so far I've submitted quite a few petitions written in Russian to different organizations and local government bodies, not a single one was rejected, they were responded to in Ukrainian as the law orders
if they were rejected that would constitute law violation

normally i don't listen to radio, if i happen to hear it it's only in the public transportation playing at the driver, almost all music playing on the radio when i hear it is in Russian, there's even a nation wide radiostation called Русское радио, which exclusively plays music in Russian
when the 'oranges' came to power lots of Ukrainian music started being played on the radio, but those days are long gone.

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement

Originally Posted by Hanna

The main example of this is the Baltic States where native Russian speakers are treated in a way that is totally unworthy of the EU, and nobody seems to care.
If you compare the situation there with the situation in Finland which is very close to the Baltic States, is a farily "new" country and has not really had an easy ride either.... yet they are handling the situation tremendously much better than the Baltics. In Finland, the bilingual situation is mostly considered to be something positive.

There are two sides to this story as you well know.

Yes and ONE OTHER side of the story might be that Russia/Soviet never managed to conquer/occupy/rape Finland like they did almost all of those "other"Baltic states.

Those people have a VERY GOOD reason to treat "ethnic Russian speakers" differently - they are a legacy of illegal occupation of the Soviet.

When are you Russian's gonna get it? People do not forget the occupation and systematic raping of their country by the Soviet - and the imposition of the Russian language along with the commie dogma. Not for a long time to come.

The "Allies" (read that USA, UK, Canada, et al) left Europe after four years - the Russian's left after 50 years!

Why is it not a surprise for you that Baltic states like Lithuania, Estonia not only flock to the EU but treat their "indigenous Russian speakers" ill? It is because there were NO or very few"indigenous" Russian speakers until Stalin and Russia invaded and raped their country!

Of course - perhaps you have a different version of the "history"?

Was the Soviet occupation the responsibility of the Russian speakers who live in those countries today? Is it OK to oppress a minority just because they speak the same language as people who oppressed your parents and grandparents?

Linguistic chauvinism really is the most idiotic form of nationalism. Personally, I think the Baltic states should have had their membership of the EU suspended years ago.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The "Allies" (read that USA, UK, Canada, et al) left Europe after four years

Really?!
American troups are still in Europe, their geographic distribution has broadened for the last 20 years. They even conduct wars in Europe (recall Yugoslavia) against those who refuse to place their troops on their land.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Really?!
American troups are still in Europe, their geographic distribution has broadened for the last 20 years. They even conduct wars in Europe (recall Yugoslavia) against those who refuse to place their troops on their land.

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did. They do not take things from those counties - they guard the countries against the CONTINUED threat of the Russian's.

Stalin (and thus Russia) even went so far as to OUTLAW letters of the Ukrainian alphabet!

It is difficult for me to understand how Russian's cannot understand the "hard feelings" these people have.

It is also difficult for me to understand WHY Russian's - being the smart and articulate people that they are - continually seem to need to be "led" - by despots like Putin.

Here in the USA - and all over Europe - we don't have a $1000 penalty for protest marches such as has been recently implemented by the "rubber stamp" Duma for CZAR Putin and his KGB cronies.

Also here and in Europe - the "state" does not "own" the media like they do in Russia - or should I say "Gazpromia". Yes - you might say America or Europe is "owned" by corporations - but it is not just one single corporation like it is in Russia. When any corporation would challenge Putin and Gazprom - well - they just change the laws (think LukOil here) and the "state" simply steals the assets of the "lawbreaker".

Nobody trusts you - and for good reason! So why would they trust their "indigenous Russian speakers" that were installed by the Soviet invader?

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Stalin (and thus Russia) even went so far as to OUTLAW letters of the Ukrainian alphabet!

The official language of USSR was Ukrainian... Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Where there any letters taken out of Ukrainian by law? Not sure, but maybe the Ukrainian members of this forum would explain..

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did. They do not take things from those counties - they guard the countries against the CONTINUED threat of the Russian's.

Stalin (and thus Russia) even went so far as to OUTLAW letters of the Ukrainian alphabet!

It is difficult for me to understand how Russian's cannot understand the "hard feelings" these people have.

It is also difficult for me to understand WHY Russian's - being the smart and articulate people that they are - continually seem to need to be "led" - by despots like Putin.

Here in the USA - and all over Europe - we don't have a $1000 penalty for protest marches such as has been recently implemented by the "rubber stamp" Duma for CZAR Putin and his KGB cronies.

Also here and in Europe - the "state" does not "own" the media like they do in Russia - or should I say "Gazpromia". Yes - you might say America or Europe is "owned" by corporations - but it is not just one single corporation like it is in Russia. When any corporation would challenge Putin and Gazprom - well - they just change the laws (think LukOil here) and the "state" simply steals the assets of the "lawbreaker".

Nobody trusts you - and for good reason! So why would they trust their "indigenous Russian speakers" that were installed by the Soviet invader?

I will "add" here - that I know allot about the "so-called" Yugoslavia - I was stationed in northern Greece (Macedonia) in that late 70's - in a place where they called it then the "buffer zone".

Yugoslavia was a "special case". This was only a "country" because of the "iron hand" of Tito. This place - the "Balkan" - it was the crossroads of East vs. West - Slav vs. Muslim - and even orthodox vs. catholic vs. Islam. This place has been the foment of war in Europe. The only thing that made that collection of Croatia Serbia, and the rest WAS the AUTHORITARIAN regime of Tito. As soon as he died - the inevitable troubles began.

Yet the Euro's did nothing about it - nor did the Russian's - all the while the body's of the innocents were piling up.

I was very much against the US forces involvement by Madeline "NotSoBright" and the "BillKlingon" administration in that delima - I knew it to be a European problem and thought that it should be a European "fix". But the Euro's are just like a "neutered dog" and something had to be done. The USA did it!

Crap on you Russian's for what you did (or didn't do) there! You came "riding in" at the last minute after all was over pretending to "save your Slavic brother".

Where were you Russian's or the Euro's in the BEGINNING of that conflict of a nation that was essentially under your care?

Where were you? Nowhere to be found - that is "where you were".

Typical Russian.

I always like that "old Soviet saying" - that "history is never set".

Yup - you Putin robots certainly fit the mold - and you are to be feared - because you are all intelligent, talented, and seem to be brainwashed like a herd of korova.

Don't any of you "modern" Russian's remember Viktor Tsoy? Perhaps you should listen to his songs again. I would point out "печаль".

I want to say here - that I am married to a Ukrainian woman for 12 years. I have "inherited" her children and have brought them here to America - I have treated them all well. I have taken the "Russian view" in politics on many occasions - but now I have grave doubts.

Why? Because of what I see happening in Russia now - the absorption of the media by the state run Gazprom. The people are "fed" a single lunch everyday - they have no informed choices - and if they demand t - they are fined much more than they can pay.

That is what I see - and being the old "cold warrior" that I am I am glad we have many missiles pointed towards Russia and have changed my mind again to believe that Russia is truly the enemy of freedom - because their people are Korova that subjugate themselves to an authoritarian regime that will be to the detriment on mankind.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did.

Was not Yugoslavian government imposed by the US in 1990s? Was not Greece government imposed by force after WWII?

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The "Allies" (read that USA, UK, Canada, et al) left Europe after four years - the Russian's left after 50 years!

What do you mean? There are US military bases in Germany (unlike those of Russia) and all of Europe is in Nato. Also as many pointed out, you have to know English to get a good job. So it is doubtful that the Americans "left" whatever do you mean.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Russian Federation is a federation therefore by its very design it must respect national languages of the federation members

That's the main fault of Russia. We just had to abandon the federation...
The alnguage policy is very tough in France as far as I know. They have practically destroyed other languages and dialects.

Originally Posted by Marcus

The alnguage policy is very tough in France as far as I know. They have practically destroyed other languages and dialects.

No, no - it's just English that the French hate (not all, but many). They just want to protect their language against English, so there are quotas about how much English songs can be played on the radio etc. Most young people totally ignore all this and absolutely nothing happens.

They have some LOCAL languages there, like Occitane and Basque. These are given plenty of support. There are also some people in France that actually have German as their mother tongue (Alsace - belonged to Germany earlier). This is no problem for France either. I know a person from this area and he is bilingual which means he was able to get a great job in Zurich.

That's the main fault of Russia. We just had to abandon the federation...

This almost deserves a separate thread, to hear your views on this.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

but in the Baltic states Russian population predominantly consists of occupiers and their descendants

I wonder how is it to be legally considered "occupier" in a country where you was born.