Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

every nation which comes to another land and start dictating rules will be perceived as threat and phobia is nothing else than fear, fear of threat in this case, so russophobia is just a manifestation of self-preservation instinct of a nation which feels threatened by Russia

and I just agree that Russian state and Russian citizens insofar as they agree with their government policies pose threat to neighboring countries, or at least unfriendly towards them, especially if those countries are oriented towards European values, which are by and large incongruent with the values Russian state currently adheres to

its aggressiveness Russian state has demonstrated in a recent armed conflict with Georgia

Originally Posted by LXNDR

every nation which comes to another land and start dictating rules will be perceived as threat and phobia is nothing else than fear, fear of threat in this case, so russophobia is just a manifestation of self-preservation instinct of a nation which feels threatened by Russia

and I just agree that Russian state and Russian citizens insofar as they agree with their government policies pose threat to neighboring countries, or at least unfriendly towards them, especially if those countries are oriented towards European values, which are by and large incongruent with the values Russian state currently adheres to

its aggressiveness Russian state has demonstrated in a recent armed conflict with Georgia

I can certainly agree with that.

Of course MANY Ukrainian's speak Russian language "ethnically" - yet some speak such because they were FORCED to do such by the Soviet boot on their necks.

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

Of course the contemporary Russian citizen can no more be held accountable for the sins of the Soviet than the contemporary German citizen for the sins of the Nazi - but many people do not understand that.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik".

Being forced to learn a language is not the worst thing possible - after all we were all "forced" to learn all kinds of languages at school without an opportunity to refuse. In the USSR we were "forced" to learn Ukrainian which I do not regret at all even if I do not feel any particular fondness for it.

At least Poles were not forced to accept it as their native language and to use it instead of Polish in courts, movie theaters, etc.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

I think this is true for some people, maybe the majority. But I have personally met many Eastern Europeans who don't feel this way at all. A Polish person not so long ago, a Bulgarian guy who was running a very successful IT business in London and a German technician that I knew through work. A girl from Lithuania who is in the same book club as me and countless CVs where Eastern Europeans claim to speak fluent Russian.
All of them practically brag about their skills in Russian as a second language.

Many people in France blatantly despise English, some in Germany too. They feel their own language is quite sufficient and do not want to feel like fools expressing themselves in English just because of the current dominance of the USA or whatever they see as the explanation.

Those of us who speak smaller European languages as our mother tongues (like me) appreciate that knowing English makes all of the internet and endless more literature and culture available. I'd say that Russian would fill a similar type of role for some people even if it is a smaller language than English, it is a "world" language. For Polish, Czech etc people it is considerably easier to learn Russian than English, that's got to count for something. So I wouldn't take their complaints too seriously - it will be forgotten with time. Everyone has to learn English now, and if you don't, certain careers are not available. I don't see the big difference.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Of course MANY Ukrainian's speak Russian language "ethnically" - yet some speak such because they were FORCED to do such by the Soviet boot on their necks.

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

Of course the contemporary Russian citizen can no more be held accountable for the sins of the Soviet than the contemporary German citizen for the sins of the Nazi - but many people do not understand that.

LOL. If you give independence to Moscow oblast and put regional nationalists in charge, they also will claim that Moscow oblast was suppressed by Moscow for thousands of years, so that all who came from Moscow and their descendants are "occupiers" and their rights should be restricted.

I think the language talks are nothing but the pure political games. What does it mean 'to re-establish itself' or 'save the language' in that context? If you take the history a little further than 300 or so years, I'm pretty sure you'll find that each dialect of Ukrainian initially belonged to a group of people which physically prevailed another group. So, come to think of it, any language might actually be 'a language of an occupant' for the most people in the world. But after two generations the 'occupied' people would know the language of the 'occupant' and dump their native language. So, those who fight for the so-called 'their Ukrainian' with heat, would actually fight for the language of the 'occupant' of their ancestors. Their ancestors fought and died and the Ukrainian occupants killed them and wiped out their original language. Is that really something worth to hold onto despite the convenience?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Is that really something worth to hold onto despite the convenience?

yes it is, for the sake of cultural diversity

but what kind of convenience you mean i don't understand

there's large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and Chinese as well, do you think their languages should receive the same status as English and French?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

yes it is, for the sake of cultural diversity

but what kind of convenience you mean i don't understand

there's large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and Chinese as well, do you think their languages should receive the same status as English and French?

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

But, it's good that you mentioned French as a second official language in Canada. So, the francophones are a minority, but since it's very widely spoken language in Canada, it is official. That is a convenience as well as the political unity. The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

That being said, there are a number of organizations which would employ the Ukrainian origin. For example, https://www.ukrainiancu.com/UCU/ which offices are all over Canada would only accept members of the Ukrainian origin. E.g. I cannot become a member and get a credit from that union. Ukrainians are very proud of their origin I guess..

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That being said, there are a number of organizations which would employ the Ukrainian origin. For example, https://www.ukrainiancu.com/UCU/ which offices are all over Canada would only accept members of the Ukrainian origin. E.g. I cannot become a member and get a credit from that union. Ukrainians are very proud of their origin I guess..

Any diaspora in any country is usually very serious about their traditions and their origin, sometimes more that those who were left behind in their native country. It's a natural desire to preserve what's left in a new and unfamiliar world. Ukrainian diaspora is well known for cherishing Ukrainian traditions and being as "Ukrainian" as possible (as well as Jews, for example).

Sometimes they try too hard, though. There was an incident last year or so. Some Canadian organization invited sick and orphaned children from Carpathian region of Ukraine for medical treatment and/or recreation, which was great and very generous of them. Except that there was one condition - no Russian speaking children. I guess they were in their right, but this kind of segregation still looked kind of bad.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Any diaspora in any country is usually very serious about their traditions and their origin, sometimes more that those who were left behind in their native country. It's a natural desire to preserve what's left in a new and unfamiliar world. Ukrainian diaspora is well known for cherishing Ukrainian traditions and being as "Ukrainian" as possible (as well as Jews, for example).

Sometimes they try too hard, though. There was an incident last year or so. Some Canadian organization invited sick and orphaned children from Carpathian region of Ukraine for medical treatment and/or recreation, which was great and very generous of them. Except that there was one condition - no Russian speaking children. I guess they were in their right, but this kind of segregation still looked kind of bad.

Exactly, that's what I was talking about. Based on my experience of communicating with the second and third generations of Ukrainian origin, they have nothing against Russians and Russian culture, but they know nothing of it and they obviously can't speak or understand Russian (as much as I can't speak and understand Ukrainian). The Ukrainian organizations seem pretty tough on that matter though..

Originally Posted by Hanna

I was recently in the Baltics and noticed no such mentality among the Russian speakers. In most cases (except the market in Riga) it was very hard to tell who was ethnically Russian vs Latvian. They are not very warm people, like Ukrainians for example - but both groups were about equally well or poorly behaved. There were crooks and rude people from either nationality, nice and friendly people from either. The Russians are somewhat the underdog though, the native Latvians are a little bit better off economically I think.

i'm not so much talking from human relations standpoint as from the standpoint of values, and it's the prevailing values which determine the orientation of the entire nation and national consciousness

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.

they restore historical justice, they have every right to since they have been violated

Originally Posted by Hanna

The Baltic states are essentially culturally and ethnically homogenous from an outside perspective, which is more than what can be said for any country in Northern Europe for example. In Belarus were only Belarussians and Russians, in the Ukraine I was not able to determine, but there certainly were no Africans or Arabs there at any rate. In Latvia too, were only white people, Europeans.

that is why it's only logical that there should be only one official language

I just watched on Эхо Москвы a talk with Riga's mayor Нил Ушаков, as you can tell by his surname he's Russian, by his personal name one can tell how much Russian he is, because Нил is an ancient forgotten Russian name
so maybe the rumors about discrimination are a bit exaggerated, or maybe only a certain stratum of Russian speaking population is discriminated against on whatever grounds

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

with such percentage, this Ukrainian law the MPs scrap over, would grant these Ukrainians the right to demand declaring Ukrainian a provincial language alongside English and French, don't you think it's ridiculous?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

that's the exact reason why Ukrainian has to remain the sole official language, i mentioned this reason earlier in this thread