Thread: Marxism Leninism

The only difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism is the addition of Lenin's statement that "Imperialism is the final Stage of Capitalism". What does this mean (explain in few words as if to a fourteen year old)? Why did I read somewhere that the original Marxism was never followed and both USSR and China resulted in a system far away from Communism?

And I am curious to know if there are any people here who still favor Communism as in USSR. Why not a poll?

who still favor Communism as in USSR.

There was no any communism in USSR, FYI.

There is well-known Russian joke, which sounds like: "poll at the internet site show, what 100% of Russian citizenry have Internet".
I think most users of this forum is too young to be communist, though of course in Russia there is a lot of people who still like communism and want it back, but where is a lot of such people who don't want it anymore.

Communism as a political and economical system is great! It ensures harmonious development of the society and individuals. Communism (unlike communists) eliminates classes, any kind of inequality, oppression and the state itself. It promotes common ownership of means of production and allows every member of the society to participate in decision making process in the political and economical spheres.
It also eliminates the concept of private property but, nevertheless, it declares that all possible needs of an individual should be satisfied.
In theory, communism is far more advantageous form of government than capitalism, socialism or any other -isms. The only drawback is that it doesn't work in reality. Well, presently, no. Maybe when the mankind progresses further and manages to produce enough food and energy for all it would be theoretically possible, but not now. Still, I think that sooner or later (it may take another several centuries though) we will reach the stage when communism is possible if the mankind doesn't destroy itself in the process.

Originally Posted by ST

...though of course in Russia there is a lot of people who still like communism and want it back, but where is a lot of such people who don't want it anymore.

What are you talking about?
Even Soviet leaders never dared to say that they managed to achieve the stage of Communism. USSR was a Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics.

Originally Posted by Ramil

...The only drawback is that it doesn't work in reality yet. [swvuq7ef]Well, presently, no.[/swvuq7ef] Maybe when the mankind progresses further and manages to produce enough food and energy for all it would be theoretically possible, but not now. Still, I think that sooner or later (it may take [swvuq7ef]another[/swvuq7ef] several centuries though) we will reach the stage when communism is possible if the mankind doesn't destroy itself in the process.

Удалось ухватить ребенка и он сделал пару замечаний по тексту.

What are you talking about?
Even Soviet leaders never dared to say that they managed to achieve the stage of Communism. USSR was a Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics.

Ну была же Компартия, да и сейчас вроде есть. Всё её члены имх могут называть себя коммунистами с полным правом

Originally Posted by ST

Ну была же Компартия, да и сейчас вроде есть. Всё её члены имх могут называть себя коммунистами с полным правом

Вот именно, коммунисты были, а коммунизма не было. ))) Вечно у нас все через ж*пу. )))))

Коммунизм никогда не существовал. Капитализм - вполне себе реальность. Зачем мы все время стараемся сравнивать то, чего не было с тем, что есть?
Коммунизм по Марксу предполагал, чтобы не было бедных. В России все делалось, чтобы не было богатых. Здесь есть сходство - всеобщее равенство. Хуже другое, что после такого жуткого провала общественно-политический формаций, как монархии, так и социализма-коммунизма, появляются люди, которые пытаются либо одно либо другое возродить. Туда же отнесу либерастов с их 90-ми.

First of all, I don't understand whay there was no communism in USSR. Why doesn't it stand for Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

And what about Lenin's theory (the Imperialism one)

Originally Posted by penguinhead

First of all, I don't understand whay there was no communism in USSR. Why doesn't it stand for Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

And what about Lenin's theory (the Imperialism one)

According to Lenin, Socialism is a transitional phase between capitalism and communism. USSR was socialistic state. Yes, it means we had socialism and we were in the process of 'building' communism (at least that was what they were telling us ) There are very profound differences between socialism and communism. But people who were building communism in USSR called themselves communists.

Communism has never existed in reality.

Originally Posted by penguinhead

The only difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism is the addition of Lenin's statement that "Imperialism is the final Stage of Capitalism".

I am no expert on the subject, but this is what we were taught at school back in the USSR:

The main difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism is that Marx stated that the fall of capitalism would start in developed capitalist states, that the more a state is economically and politically developed and the more the proletariat is politically conscious and organised, the better are the chances for the success of revolution, and Lenin stated that it hadn't had to be that way, that if a capitalist state is underdeveloped and weak, as it was in Russia, than it might be easier for the proletariat to seize power, and that would be a spark that would set fire to the whole world, which, he believed, was ready to this, and the necessary development in Russia could be archived later, having friendly surroundings.

"The fire" never happened.

Imperialism is a "mature" and therefore agressive capitalism, which has outgrown it's national economy and strives for more resources and territories.
The main features of imperialism are growth of monopolies and transatlantic corporations, political and economical wars for resources which lead to globalization and colonisation (including veiled colonisation, when the country in question is nominally independent and is not a colony, but it's resources are exploited and used to the advantage of the more influental and powerful imperialistic state).

Something like that.

Коммунизм - наша цель, поэтому стрелять надо метко!
(из советского армейского юмора)

Интересно, это изречение можно перевести на английский?

Originally Posted by penguinhead

The only difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism is the addition of Lenin's statement that "Imperialism is the final Stage of Capitalism". What does this mean (explain in few words as if to a fourteen year old)? Why did I read somewhere that the original Marxism was never followed and both USSR and China resulted in a system far away from Communism?

And I am curious to know if there are any people here who still favor Communism as in USSR. Why not a poll?

Yes, the addition of Lenin's statement that "Imperialism is the final Stage of Capitalism" is the only difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism. This means that there is no difference, actually. The term imperialism used by Lenin is defined as "monopoly capitalism", the next "and final" stage of capitalism. That stage was not observed by Marx in the 19th century. Rather, it was observed by Lenin in the beginning of the 20th century. Lenin tried to explain why capitalism got stronger despite the expectation of Marx for its death. According to Lenin, capitalism has flourished just before its death, as Marx prescribed.

In both USSR and China, the original Marxism, being just a theory, was followed as much as possible in practice.

On the other hand, the word communism has two meanings.

First, it is a religion. As a religion, the communism has its followers even now all over the world. It includes all doctrines of Marx and Lenin for social engineering, applying violance, supremacy of social group rights over human rights.

Second, the communism is a social system which is to be established finally. In the communism as a religion, the comminusm as a social system plays the role which the paradise plays in such a religion as Christianity. The comminusm as a social system has not been ever established anywhere. Similarly, nobody has ever seen the paradise.

"Железным кнутом загоним человечество в рай" - a communist slogan.

Ordinary thoughts of a communist believer: "Those who believe in God think that the death is the only way to the paradise. Well, we can help them die and go to their paradise if they obstruct our efforts to build a paradise on the earth."

Communism is an atheistic religion. It contains some arrogance towards God: humans can control everything, the nature and the society. Now, we can realize that human's mental power is not enough even to control the software running on one computer. We can realize that human's power is too weak to control the society - that is the main reason for the collapse of the USSR.

Communists are God's hackers.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Communism as a political and economical system is great! It ensures harmonious development of the society and individuals. Communism (unlike communists) eliminates classes, any kind of inequality, oppression and the state itself. It promotes common ownership of means of production and allows every member of the society to participate in decision making process in the political and economical spheres.
It also eliminates the concept of private property but, nevertheless, it declares that all possible needs of an individual should be satisfied.
In theory, communism is far more advantageous form of government than capitalism, socialism or any other -isms. The only drawback is that it doesn't work in reality. Well, presently, no. Maybe when the mankind progresses further and manages to produce enough food and energy for all it would be theoretically possible, but not now. Still, I think that sooner or later (it may take another several centuries though) we will reach the stage when communism is possible if the mankind doesn't destroy itself in the process.

Yes, in theory, the paradise is much better. The only drawback is that it doesn't exist in reality.

Humans desires are unlimited. On the one hand, that's why the paradise cannot exist in reality: the comminism as a political and economical system will never be possible. On the other hand, this ensures the progress of the human race. Because, once we are in the paradise, the time is to cease: there is just the eternity.

Originally Posted by christo_tamarin

Ordinary thoughts of a communist believer: "Those who believe in God think that the death is the only way to the paradise. Well, we can help them die and go to their paradise if they obstruct our efforts to build a paradise on the earth."

Nonsense.
You like to demonise things, don't you?

Originally Posted by christo_tamarin

Yes, the addition of Lenin's statement that "Imperialism is the final Stage of Capitalism" is the only difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism. This means that there is no difference, actually.

No, I don't think this is correct.

1st, Marx (and esp. Engels) did not envision a vanguard, especially not along the lines of Lenin's vanguard. Before 1917 was even complete, anarchists stated rather unequivocally: Lenin and his party will create a terrible dictatorship. It happened, not because of any inherent evil, etc., but because of the natural progression of ANY authoritarian revolutionary movement, which Bolshevism was.

2nd, Marx did not envision a forced bourgeois coup (not a Communist revolution, as some state) in what was essentially a feudal country, done for the sake of 'communism.' A bourgeois coup is progressive, but leads to capitalism. That's clear in Marx.

3rd, Lenin essentially created a superstate which was never meant to wither away. Although Marx notes a 'dictatorship of the proletariat' in his work, it's not described explicitly, and certainly not in the bureaucratic manner Lenin hoped for. I also do not see much on the repression of democracy, or the methodical emasculation of workers' groups -- indeed, when workers demanded independent control and management over the workplace (Marx's ideas, of course), Lenin called them 'anarchists' - or, opposers of Bolshevism.

Saying that Leninism is Marxism, is like calling Pol Pot-ism Maoism -- can't really happen.

Now, we can realize that human's mental power is not enough even to control the software running on one computer.

Sure it's enough... I'm sorry it may sound rude, but how old are you?

The difference is they did essencially different things. Marx originally was a scientist and made socioeconomical scientific theory which provided wrong prognosys (as is clear now) but still usable in many other ways. Then Marx tried to make a political ideology from that theory. Lenin was originally a practic of revolutionary movement and made an ideology as an instrment for the brainwashing. Marx relied on the nature of social laws while Lenin relied on the organization which should capture the power. Then there were much scholastics around it about "-isms", "stages" etc.

So both Marx and Lenin finally produced an ideology. Ideology can be concidered a religion but it is not quite correct: sometimes functions of ideology and religion are the same, sometimes - different. Differences between ideologies are mainly not in formalism of dogmas (which can be arbitrary) but in the practical conclusions and recommendations.

Communism is a great idea, howewer this great idea was applied in the most terrible form.

Ordinary thoughts of a communist believer: "Those who believe in God think that the death is the only way to the paradise. Well, we can help them die and go to their paradise if they obstruct our efforts to build a paradise on the earth.

It is interesting the link between communism and christianity. In fact, the earlyest christians where de facto "communists", at least that is the impression anyone might get when reading Saint Paul`s writings. Later as christianity became official religion in Roman Empire and spread trough all social classes, things started to change...

As the modern dictators attempted to get the power, they needed the people to follow them blindly - or a true christian cannot kill and commit genocide or cannot bow to the personality cult imposed by the XX-th century communist regimes. The strong link between the national churches and the former monarhies also contributed to a state of conflict between religion and communist ideology. Anyway, the topic is so large, you can write entire books on it and stil not finish it. It should be mentioned that Pope Pius excomunicated communists because of their anti-religious doctrins, not because they where communists...