Thread: Liberties of the Russian people .

Originally Posted by fortheether

I'm going to make a new thread called "An alternative view of the USA" to continue this. See you all there...

О, хорошо! Тогда я туда перенесу все подходящие посты.

Sooooo, about SDI, do you really think it was a real threat? Observing US's struggling with ABM now (which is a mush humbler project than SDI was), watching its doubtful effectiveness, I doubt US was capable of SDI in the early 1980s.
Some say that SDI was a bluff in order to hurl USSR into more expenses it could afford, well, if it was it was a very successful one, I'd say the Soviet leaders believed it. Still, I don't see how KGB missed this fact and generally I cannot imagine a bluff of that magnitude and I find it hard to believe.

I think USSR was destroyed from within, not from outside. By its own people, not by some clever US president.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Sooooo, about SDI, do you really think it was a real threat? [...] I doubt US was capable of SDI in the early 1980s.

Honestly, I have no idea. But if you remember the early '80s you'd remember "the Pershing II and the SDI threat" talk was looking for you even if you'd opened your fridge.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Some say that SDI was a bluff in order to hurl USSR into more expenses it could afford, well, if it was it was a very successful one, I'd say the Soviet leaders believed it.

I think so too. At least, that's how it looked from the outside.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Still, I don't see how KGB missed this fact and generally I cannot imagine a bluff of that magnitude and I find it hard to believe.

I think that question was more of the GRU's competence than of the KGB's, but that doesn't make much difference. I mean, the Cold War era intelligence games are a way too complex for a simple-minded crocodile like myself. There's never an end to it. For example, perhaps the SU preparation for the preemptive war was also a disinformation campaign so that the US would spend more money on the SDI (while the Soviet Leaders spent much less on the 'preemptive war preparation' than the US Government on the 'SDI implementation') and the US government realized that fact ('I know that you know that I know') and spent more money in order to really impress the Soviet Leaders more and the SU made the 'preemptive war' looking more realistic, and so the game of who's fooling whom goes on and on.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I think USSR was destroyed from within, not from outside. By its own people, not by some clever US president.

Yes and no. I think the clever US president might have significantly contributed to a situation in which it was beneficial for some people to get more independence (=more local power) and sacrifice the power of the USSR. The 'own people' rode a wave (which was partially created by the US president) to their own benefit.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Honestly, I have no idea. But if you remember the early '80s you'd remember "the Pershing II and the SDI threat" talk was looking for you even if you'd opened your fridge.

Yes, I even remember being very afraid after watching Международная панорама. I understood very little, only that the Americans want us all dead and they're building many bombs. Funny thing, I'd learned about Reagan's Star Wars first and of Lucas's much later.

I think that question was more of the GRU's competence than of the KGB's, but that doesn't make much difference. I mean, the Cold War era intelligence games are a way too complex for a simple-minded crocodile like myself. There's never an end to it. For example, perhaps the SU preparation for the preemptive war was also a disinformation campaign so that the US would spend more money on the SDI (while the Soviet Leaders spent much less on the 'preemptive war preparation' than the US Government on the 'SDI implementation') and the US government realized that fact ('I know that you know that I know') and spent more money in order to really impress the Soviet Leaders more and the SU made the 'preemptive war' looking more realistic, and so the game of who's fooling whom goes on and on.

The spy game was very complicated but it's not like guess what the other side is thinking. You can't really hide the fact that you're building something of such a grand scale as SDI. There could be tons of evidense even to the stupidest spy.

Yes and no. I think the clever US president might have significantly contributed to a situation in which it was beneficial for some people to get more independence (=more local power) and sacrifice the power of the USSR. The 'own people' rode a wave (which was partially created by the US president) to their own benefit.

I really don't think that Brezhnev in 1980 could think coherently about US threat. Because of his illness I don't think he cared much just about anything. He was old and ill and there were many around him who were simply filling their pockets. It's the stagnation, the lack of progress which undermined the socialist ideas. The generation of 1960s grew up in tranquil times when virtually nothing major was happenning. There were no shocks, no goal, no focus. They yawned through this time and got pretty bored with anything 'made in USSR'. The west offered much more attractive things to the young and the most idiotic thing the leaders could do was forbidding all new and fresh ideas (old farts in Politbureau saw to that). They should have given way to the young. I honestly think that if Brezhnev had resigned or died in the mid-seventies things would be much better now. Then again, who knows...

Originally Posted by Ramil

The spy game was very complicated but it's not like guess what the other side is thinking. You can't really hide the fact that you're building something of such a grand scale as SDI. There could be tons of evidense even to the stupidest spy.

I meant the opposite though. The US might have made it seem they're building the SDI, whilst they merely were planning it or even just discussing it, or building something else. Think about it this way from a perspective of a Soviet Army Headquarters officer: how could you know what the shuttles would really be delivering to the orbit? I mean, you know it's a satellite, but will that satellite be able to practically destroy anything? How could you be sure? So, when those types of the Cold War era intelligence games start, a simple-minded crocodile like myself just shuts his ears so as not to develop an inferiority complex.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

how could you know what the shuttles would really be delivering to the orbit? I mean, you know it's a satellite, but will that satellite be able to practically destroy anything? How could you be sure?

I'm not suggesting that GRU or KGB were omniscient, but this information was probably available to them.

Well - one mans propaganda is another mans truth!

Where I lived, we heard both sides of this story, presented in a relatively unbiased way.

But I agree with it-ogo: Media from the socialist countries were always on about "friendship", "solidarity", "brotherhood" and Peace etc, etc..

Whereas the US films were always picturing Russians as bad people.
And then now - Russians always have extreme roles in films: Gangsters of some kind or another, for example.

You all seem to be forgetting that it wasn't just Americans who were worried about Russia. It was all Western freedom loving people in many countries and many other people in Asian countries. In other words, "It wasn't Russia vs America". It was "Creeping communism against the world"
American politics was not about preventing a nuclear attack on US soil by Russia. It was about preventing the creeping communism from spreading to to third world nations. Which at face value is a very noble thing. Because the only way that socialism and communism can work is for EVERYONE to volunteer and give all their labor and property to the state and that IS IMPOSSIBLE! The only way it can work is for the government TAKE BY FORCE and make criminals out of the people. Socialism leads to Communism leads to Totalitarianism leads to Slavery leads to Revolution!