Thread: KGB and Russian mafia

Originally Posted by JB

I don't get my information from any media I get it straight from people who work in the LAPD Vice Squad and from the district attorney who is in charge of prosecuting Russian organized crime (and I have no idea why he refers to them as the "Russian Mob" and "Russian Mafia"). They are not American citizens or legal residents so they cannot be "American Mafia". I haven't been told any stories of Russian girls here being forced into prostitution. They all seem to move about freely and all have Russian passports and only call their pimps when they need to be bailed out of jail. A few hours out of jail they set up shop (and computers) in a new location and are back in business.

For pity's sake, JB, choose your hobby once and for all - pulling babies with forceps or tackling organised crime. Don't do both things.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

No, VM, I have no experience in this, but trust me, the problem is very real.

Yes, and so are the flying sourcers. I suggest you explore the link between the flying sourcers and the so-called Russian mafia. Success attend you.

Well, there are plenty of people who say that they have experienced flying saucers, but that doesn't make it true, does it?

I don't understand why you deny that Russia has mafia! And now you are denying that Norway has a problem with human trafficking by Russians, just because YOU have never heard of it before?

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Not surprised. As I read (in plenty of sources) the crime situation in Los Angeles is exactly like this.
The only thing I want to emphasize: if these gangs of criminal are operating in USA, why are they "Russian mafia"? For me they look more like *american mafia* (although of "russian" origin).
Not to mention calling "mafia" a gang of thugs... Isn't it lame.

Of course, everything I said applies to Norway as well.

Your statement holds true if the the mafia is only limited to America, using illegal American goods and breaking only American laws. the Russian mafia has to originate from Russia, it would have to expand its influence from Russia to other parts of the world, or else I agree it isn't Russian mafia, since it has nothing to do with Russia, apart from ethnicity. But if they are using Russian passports, getting narcotics from Afghanistan through Russia and all the leaders are Russian citizens, it certainly isn't American mafia!

mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics.

The Russian's that are involved in organized crime in Los Angeles return to Russia regularily. They also stay in Russia if they find the American cops are getting close to catching them.

mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics

No, matey, that's not mafia, that's organised crime. You get mafia only when crime is so organised that it uses its tentacles to grab certain politicians, congressmen/MPs/etc. by the balls and they (politicians) become part of the same criminal network. Now, Russian politicians don't operate in Norway, so if Norway has a trafficking problem as you discribed it means that Norway has its own mafia and they are in control. The Russian organised crime could put down roots in Norway because they found a way of getting Norwegian politicians into their network, thereby building a real mafia in Norway - Norwegian mafia.

Originally Posted by JB

The Russian's that are involved in organized crime in Los Angeles return to Russia regularily. They also stay in Russia if they find the American cops are getting close to catching them.

So that basically means that your society is a wonderful breeding ground for organised crime. It offers niches for different ethnic groups. But who's behind those niches? Who keeps them warm while their owners are keeping low profile in Russia? Who receives bribes for minding the shop while the owner's away? Who offers those niches to criminal gangs from abroad. Russian mafia my arse.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics

No, matey, that's not mafia, that's organised crime. You get mafia only when crime is so organised that it uses its tentacles to grab certain politicians, congressmen/MPs/etc. by the balls and they (politicians) become part of the same criminal network. Now, Russian politicians don't operate in Norway, so if Norway has a trafficking problem as you discribed it means that Norway has its own mafia and they are in control. The Russian organised crime could put down roots in Norway because they found a way of getting Norwegian politicians into their network, thereby building a real mafia in Norway - Norwegian mafia.

I don't know where you got that definition from, because all the dictionaries have a much broder definition of mafia (my definition was taken from websters)

Actually here is an intersting article from http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Russian_Mafia

The Russian Mafia is a name given to various groups of organized criminals in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. They are seen to be very influential.

The Russian Mafia appears to be organised in similar ways to the legendary Italian mafia. However it is believed to be a very loose organisation with internal feuds and murders, which are often brutal, being commonplace.
...
Since the mid-90s the Russians have been trying to expand into America, most often via the trafficking of drugs and illegal weapons. This has led to some brutal wars with the organisations already present, including the Italian Mafia and the Japanese Yakuza.
...
The term Russian Mafia is considered offensive by many ethnic Russians, since a large percentage (some estimates claim this number to be close to 90%) of the alleged "Russian" mafiosi, especially in the United States, claim to be ethnic Jews from the former Soviet Union, and due to strong anti-semitic feelings in parts of Russia, many Russians do not feel that Jews are authentically Russian.

...
The so called "Russian Mafia" appears to be no more "Russian", per se, than Cosa Nostra is "English" or "American" Mafia, as far as much of the Russian public is concerned. The term "Russian-speaking" or "Soviet" Mafia may better describe the situation.

This seems to show the essence of our discussion!!! But can we trust internet sources?

Actually, I thought most of the "Russian mafia" are really from former Soviet republics like Armenia, Georgia, etc.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Not surprised. As I read (in plenty of sources) the crime situation in Los Angeles is exactly like this.
The only thing I want to emphasize: if these gangs of criminal are operating in USA, why are they "Russian mafia"? For me they look more like *american mafia* (although of "russian" origin).
Not to mention calling "mafia" a gang of thugs... Isn't it lame.

Of course, everything I said applies to Norway as well.

Your statement holds true if the the mafia is only limited to America, using illegal American goods and breaking only American laws. the Russian mafia has to originate from Russia, it would have to expand its influence from Russia to other parts of the world, or else I agree it isn't Russian mafia, since it has nothing to do with Russia, apart from ethnicity. But if they are using Russian passports, getting narcotics from Afghanistan through Russia and all the leaders are Russian citizens, it certainly isn't American mafia!

As for me, the much more important question is: where (and how) people are conducting some criminal activities?
For example, here is some (purely hypotetical) situatuation. Imagine a groups of emigrants from former USSR (where they were worked in a car service, for example). In USA they (being unable to find any better employment) became to sale drugs or run prostitutes. So (even if they all remain Russian citizens, and have only Russian passports), why they should be desribed as "Russian mafia"? For me (even if they are "mafia" -- see below), they definitely are 100% "American mafia". Because they didn't do anything illegal back in Russia -- only when they moved to USA, they began to.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics.

So, according to your definition, even 2-3 schoolboys selling marijuana to their classmates are mafia?
This is the reason, why I call it lame.

Let me quote some authoritative sources -- for example, Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?to ... =Mafia&ct=

Mafia

hierarchically structured society of criminals of primarily Italian or Sicilian birth or extraction. The term applies to the traditional criminal organization in Sicily and also to a criminal organization in the United States.

The Mafia arose in Sicily during the late Middle Ages, where it possibly began as a secret organization dedicated to overthrowing…

The Russian's in Los Angeles that are involved in organized crime are not nice "immigrants" who couldn't find a job and got into drug running and prostitution as a side line . These guys are here illegally, usually on work visas from the money laundering business fronts that are owned by their crimminal Russian friends. Also without visas they come into California through Mexico. They travel back and forth between America and Russia because they have businesses (criminal, illegal) in BOTH countries. These are not stupid amatures.
And as for Britannica's definition, that is about 50 years behind the times. The US Feds pretty much took the power out of the Italian mafia a few years back when they were all busted for tax evasion. Now the big problems are with the Chinese, Mexican, and Russian mafias.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

[
So, according to your definition, even 2-3 schoolboys selling marijuana to their classmates are mafia?
This is the reason, why I call it lame.

Let me quote some authoritative sources -- for example, Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?to ... =Mafia&ct=

Mafia

hierarchically structured society of criminals of primarily Italian or Sicilian birth or extraction. The term applies to the traditional criminal organization in Sicily and also to a criminal organization in the United States.

The Mafia arose in Sicily during the late Middle Ages, where it possibly began as a secret organization dedicated to overthrowing…

Yes, finally a spark of truth has entered into this discussion. "MAFIA" is an Italian word describing certain Italiians. No one seems to agree on what the word means, some say that it means "honour" or "manly" some say it is an Arabic word that means "Refuge" dating back to the 9th century when Muslim invaders were at the doorstep of Rome. But the fact remains that to be truly considered Mafia you had to be sanctioned by the Dons and there was usually a bloodline connection somewhere.

The Japanese have their Yakuza, the Italians have their Mafia. If there are organized groups of Russian families, you will have to come up with another name for them because these names are taken. Or better yet,why don't you go and find a bunch of Russian speaking thugs committing criminal acts and asked them what their name is?

The word "mafia" has been incorporated into the English and Russian languages, just as the words "cafe", "taxi" etc. It no longer refers to only Italian criminals, but is used to describe organized criminals of many ethnic groups.

Originally Posted by JB

The word "mafia" has been incorporated into the English and Russian languages, just as the words "cafe", "taxi" etc. It no longer refers to only Italian criminals, but is used to describe organized criminals of many ethnic groups.

I'd like to see you tell that to the real Mafia.

Exactly who is the "real" mafia? I have never heard that any group of Italian organized criminals call themselves "The Mafia". One of my Italian friends in high school even warned me not to use that term in her house because her grandfather and uncles had "businesses" in Chicago.
Also the DA, LAPD and press routinely refer to the Chineses Mafia, Mexican Mafia, and Russian Mafia along with the Italian Mafia.
In California and Mexico the 2 major Mexican rival groups or "mafia" call themselves "The Mexican Mafia" and "Nuestra Familia".

The American branch of Mafiosi call themselves La Cosa Nostra.

Sure, the cops and the press always get it wrong. Who cares what terminology they use. Everybody is "the Mafia" to them, now. I prefer not to operate on their level. It is an insult to all involved and to my intelligence as well.

You prefer not to operate on whose level? What in the world are you talking about?

On the level of the average Local News broadcast in America.
Broadcasting their diet of Velveeta cheese and Big Macs for all the 300 lb heifers dragging their chublette kids through Wal-Mart on their way to the next sale aisle in order to buy another mismatching set of lime green tights and hot pink tank top so she can look “sexy” for her soft and doughy like, slightly abusive boyfriend who is more interested in watching basketball on their big screen TV that they can’t really afford, than talking to her, the mother of his children and a couple of other guy’s as well. Oh yes, how alluring she will be as she goes to fetch him another six-pack of light beer and a pint of Ben and Jerry’s New York Cheese Cake ice cream for herself. He will not know where to look, at the TV or at his girlfriends protruding and gelatinous like belly so “conveniently” left bare. But unfortunately this romantic moment will only be ruined by his sharp criticism of her as she dares to hand him a can of his beloved beverage while a hoop is being made.

The talking heads on TV, the district attorneys and spokes cops are talking to the above people when they use words like Russian Mafia, Chinese Mafia, Japanese Mafia. It is just about as convenient for them to use this terminology as it is for the Miss Piggys in spandex to feed her kids at McDonald’s. And if you find this description of Mafia in your dictionary, it is about selling the latest edition to the masses not Mafia,..... darling.

Reality check.....
I didn't read it in the newspaper, didn't hear it on TV. I heard it from the people who are experts in organized crime (judges, district attorney, lawyers, police officials) over cocktails at private parties.

Originally Posted by JB

I heard it from the people who are experts in organized crime (judges, district attorney, lawyers, police officials) over cocktails at private parties.

Hmm...."experts in organiized crime" . I wonder what makes them experts. You don't suppose the fact that all those you mentioned have been known to have been "bought off" by the Mafia at one time or other has anything to do with that do you?

But you are missing the point. I know that these people use the word "Mafia" in that way. They are just simply wrong. Perhaps it's the cocktails.
Experts using an incorrect term does make the term correct. Take the word nuclear for example. It is correctly pronounced just as it looks. However many semi- illiterate boobs including respected news anchors and even President Bush himself insist on saying "NucUlar". Does it make it right simply because Bush says it that way? No. And niether are Russians Mafiosi, just organized.

I'll be seeing some of these people this weekend. After working for many years in law enforcement and the judiciary they'll be glad to hear that you don't consider them experts on organized crime (even though fighting the various "mafias" has been the main focus of their careers).
And I won't even mention the "bought off" accusation. That is beyond stupid.