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Thread: Jewish genocide against Russia, Ukraine..........

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Линдзи
    If you want to blame someone blame the Soviet leadership that notoriously fudged figures.
    The USSR always insisted on 20 million total losses. While less than the actual 27, it is still huge. And that figure was continually circulated in Soviet publications since fifties. So maybe we should blame the "free democratic" press of the USSR’s Cold War enemies, who did everything to diminish the role played by the USSR in WWII.

    Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering
    Head on.

    I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII;
    Because they are distorting the truth. Those same camps killed a lot more Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians than Jews, yet those activists almost never mention the fact, which leads many to believe that the camps was created solely for the Jews and nobody but the Jews.


    So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails?
    Explain how. Like buy a couple of pages in the Life magazine? The only way the USA (let's just take one country) may be educated about that is by making the topic mandatory in the school program, at educational channels, and so on. That needs a go by the state officials, not just wishful thinking at some internet forum unheard of in the USA.
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

  2. #62
    JJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).
    You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".

    Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.
    I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.

    This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?
    Ok, try to do this:
    go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
    type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
    then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
    then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
    So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising? Don't forget that USSR lost 27 million people and it mentions almost 30 times rarely than Holocaust. The Holocaust victims mention more often than all victims that awful war.
    I don't know to whom it is profitable but the facts....
    Gib immer 100% bei der Arbeit: 12% am Montag, 23% am Dienstag, 40% am Mittwoch, 20% am Donnerstag, 5% am Freitag ...

  3. #63
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    type in "world war two victims" and you get 2,950,000 results
    type in "soviet world war two victims" and you get 600,000 results
    type in "i smell like fish" and you get 1,170,000 results

    I don't disagree that the Holocaust gets a lot of press, but I don't know anyone who doesn't realize that others perished right along side the Jews in the camps. And while I agree that Soviet suffering may well be underreported, I'm not sure an internet search is the best way of making your point, unless your point is that hott naked asian grrrls are sexxxy in pr0n. Search words can be manipulated to show any results.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).
    You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".
    It was hard to construct any sort of 'argument' when all you had done to that point was toss in a few gnomic hints about 'Jews' and 'Holocaust BS'. Thank you for the explanation.

    Ok, try to do this:
    go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
    type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
    then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
    then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
    So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising?
    This is tantamount to saying that your local hospital ‘advertises’ coronary heart disease ('Look at all those leaflets...'). The Holocaust happened - you’re with me on this one, right? - and is worth writing about, as, needless to say, is what happened in the Soviet Union. Fashions come and go in the study of history (who would have thought thirty years ago, for example, that people would be so obsessed de nos jours with the minutiae of their ancestors’ daily lives?); to put this down to of any sort of concerted ‘Jewish effort’ is ridiculous and I would hope that you’re not trying to do so.

    Besides, I've read several very good books about Soviet casualties in WWII. Not sure the notion that there's a deficiency in this department holds water.

    I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.
    Thames Television? Esteemed Purveyor of trash TV to the masses? There are better sources, no?
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  5. #65
    Mihkkal
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    Well, I was planning to write something long about this - but then I realized I can mostly just say "Go Lindzi!".

    I see the logic of states paying money to victims of their own earlier misdoings - like the USA giving compensation to the Native Americans - but if individuals were to carry the guilt of their forefathers/foremothers, what should f.ex. a German/Jew or any kind of Metis do? Should we sue ourselves?

    There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It is kind of annoying (not to say unfair) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".

    For one thing, this is proposterous because Arabs are semittes too.
    And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.

    Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)? It's true, isn't it? Given, it is also true that fundamentalist Protestants might have even more responsibility for the military/economical support to Israel - but when people point this out, they are never called anti-christian.

    I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.


    Regarding the WWII thing, it is true that the massacres of gypsies, soviet-citizens and other groups are not dealt with enough when we learn about the Holocaust. I do, however, not think that this is a part of any Global Jewish Conspiracy - it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...

  6. #66
    Mihkkal
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    it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...
    I did of course mean: Soviet-citizens, GYPSIES and homosexuals...

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkkal
    There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It is kind of annoying (not to say unfair) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel? I brought up anti-Semitism in response to comments about 'Holocaust BS'.

    And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

    Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)?
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

    I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
    As the old joke goes, товарисчи, наши враги говорят, что я читаю свои речи по пластинке...по пластинке...по пластинке...
    Show yourself - destroy our fears - release your mask

  9. #69
    Mihkkal
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    joysof wrote
    Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
    bad manners wrote
    And always start that stink about "anti-Semitism" when their dirty deeds get to be scrutinized? While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades?
    I think this was a reference to Israel. I can't really see what else it could be refering to - as far as I know, the Jewish republic of Yevrenia has never led racist/segregationalist policies, and as far as I know there aren't any other sovereign/autonomous Jewish lands than these two.

    Even so: This thread is about anti-semitism, and that's what people get accused of every time they criticize Israel and/or the Jewish neocons in the USA.

    I agree that it would be anti-semittic if one said Israel and the Jewish neocons are behaving badly because they are Jewish - however, most critics are simply saying that they're behaving badly. So I can, in a way, agree with some of what bad manners is saying here.

    However, I don't think that one shouldn't lump all Jews into one "bag" and give them the blame for everything Israel does - and I think bad manners is in danger of doing just that, when he/she makes "they" in one sentance mean "jews in general" while in the next it clearly means "Israel"/"the Israeli government(s)".

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkkal
    However, I don't think that one shouldn't lump all Jews into one "bag" and give them the blame for everything Israel does - and I think bad manners is in danger of doing just that, when he/she makes "they" in one sentance mean "jews in general" while in the next it clearly means "Israel"/"the Israeli government(s)".
    Your point is well taken. However, it has become a custom to identify "Russians" with "Russia" (even if they live in the US), and whenever a statement about some bad things in Russia is made, this is immediately attributed to all the Russians. So it is only fair to treat the Jews in the same way. I understand that it goes against the western tradition of double standards towards Russia, but this thread is about double standards.
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

  11. #71
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    Israel and Israelis (not jews)

    Russia and Russians

    not Russia and Eastern Orthodox christians. That would be your comparison. You are taking a country and labeling a whole people of a religion, Not a good comparison, and there is your flaw. Now of course most of Israel is jewish, but you are still making assumptions. Your logic of saying if people identify Russians with Russia does not hold up. Thats simply an excuse you are making for generalizing facts about jews.

  12. #72
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    [quote=[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]]

    2 entries found for Jew.
    To select an entry, click on it.
    Jew
    Wandering Jew

    Main Entry: Jew
    Pronunciation: 'j
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

  13. #73
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    [quote=bad manners][quote="[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]":2mqvu6g8]

    2 entries found for Jew.
    To select an entry, click on it.
    Jew
    Wandering Jew

    Main Entry: Jew
    Pronunciation: 'j
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkkal
    Even so: This thread is about anti-semitism, and that's what people get accused of every time they criticize Israel and/or the Jewish neocons in the USA.
    Most of the prominent members of the American neo-conservative faction are Christian fundamentalists. Now there's a dangerous bunch.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    I think you're being deliberately provocative now. I, like most Jews, only qualify under #3. I am no more an Israelite than you are a Spartan. I presume the caps in #1 are yours? Needs to be made clear.
    No. Please consult the original URL. This article means no more than the word in question is as fuzzy as "Russian", and the political tradition of identifying the Jews with Israel exists independently of any statements of mine or yours or whoever.

    This 'only fair' nonsense doesn't hold up, bad manners; twice you've used it now in separate threads and its only purpose is obfuscation. Something about two wrongs and a right springs to mind as an immediate refutation, but then you know that already.
    As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there?"
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

  16. #76
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    I'm having a hard time following this thread so I won't pretend to try and sort anything out, but I just thought I would throw two cents in for whatever it's worth.

    It appears that there may be some misunderstanding as to the term "Israelite" vs. "Israeli". "Israelite" is the ancient name for the Jewish race. The term "Jew" has replaced this term in the modern vocabulary. Those who are currently considered "Israelis" are citizens of Israel and may or may not be of Jewish lineage.

    Anyway, If there is any confusion as to these terms I hope this helps clear it up.

    Frances

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances
    I'm having a hard time following this thread so I won't pretend to try and sort anything out, but I just thought I would throw two cents in for whatever it's worth.

    It appears that there may be some misunderstanding as to the term "Israelite" vs. "Israeli". "Israelite" is the ancient name for the Jewish race. The term "Jew" has replaced this term in the modern vocabulary. Those who are currently considered "Israelis" are citizens of Israel and may or may not be of Jewish lineage.

    Anyway, If there is any confusion as to these terms I hope this helps clear it up.

    Frances
    Thanks, Frances. I'll pass that on to my parents' rabbi.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    Quote Originally Posted by joysof
    I think you're being deliberately provocative now. I, like most Jews, only qualify under #3. I am no more an Israelite than you are a Spartan.
    No. Please consult the original URL. This article means no more than the word in question is as fuzzy as "Russian", and the political tradition of identifying the Jews with Israel exists independently of any statements of mine or yours or whoever.
    If it exists, it exists erroneously. By all means identify Israel with Judaism, but not vice versa.

    No. Please consult the original URL.
    Did. Mistake mine.

    As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there?"
    Would now be a good time to admit freely that Zionism is as dangerous for the world at large as Islamic fundamentalism? No? Ok.
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  19. #79
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    I do not even think that Z-thing exists. Do not put words in my mouth, please. All I ever wanted to say is that there are grounds for criticism, and that criticism should not be labeled "anti-Semitism". No more, but no less.
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  20. #80
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    You know, I think I'm actually agreeing with bad manners. Jews aren't devils, but they aren't saints either. Western White people ditto. Black people ditto. It really irritates me when black people think they're being discriminated against every time they're accused of something. Never mind whether they're guilty or not, they're discriminated against. So they sue. And they win, somehow. Probably because no white person wants to be branded a racist.
    Some goes for jews. As I said, there are a lot of good, nice jews and black people, but in the same ratio to bad ones as white people.

    Jesus, this sounds childish. But you get my point.
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