Jewish genocide against Russia, Ukraine..........

**bad manners** · March 10th, 2004, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Линдзи

If you want to blame someone blame the Soviet leadership that notoriously fudged figures.

The USSR always insisted on 20 million total losses. While less than the actual 27, it is still huge. And that figure was continually circulated in Soviet publications since fifties. So maybe we should blame the "free democratic" press of the USSR’s Cold War enemies, who did everything to diminish the role played by the USSR in WWII.

Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering

Head on.

I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII;

Because they are distorting the truth. Those same camps killed a lot more Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians than Jews, yet those activists almost never mention the fact, which leads many to believe that the camps was created solely for the Jews and nobody but the Jews.

So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails?

Explain how. Like buy a couple of pages in the Life magazine? The only way the USA (let's just take one country) may be educated about that is by making the topic mandatory in the school program, at educational channels, and so on. That needs a go by the state officials, not just wishful thinking at some internet forum unheard of in the USA.

JJ · March 11th, 2004, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by joysof

I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).

You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".

Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.

I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.

This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?

Ok, try to do this:
go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising? Don't forget that USSR lost 27 million people and it mentions almost 30 times rarely than Holocaust. The Holocaust victims mention more often than all victims that awful war.
I don't know to whom it is profitable but the facts....

**Линдзи** · March 11th, 2004, 05:01 AM

type in "world war two victims" and you get 2,950,000 results
type in "soviet world war two victims" and you get 600,000 results
type in "i smell like fish" and you get 1,170,000 results

I don't disagree that the Holocaust gets a lot of press, but I don't know anyone who doesn't realize that others perished right along side the Jews in the camps. And while I agree that Soviet suffering may well be underreported, I'm not sure an internet search is the best way of making your point, unless your point is that hott naked asian grrrls are sexxxy in pr0n. Search words can be manipulated to show any results.

**joysof** · March 11th, 2004, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by joysof

I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).

You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".

It was hard to construct any sort of 'argument' when all you had done to that point was toss in a few gnomic hints about 'Jews' and 'Holocaust BS'. Thank you for the explanation.

Ok, try to do this:
go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising?

This is tantamount to saying that your local hospital ‘advertises’ coronary heart disease ('Look at all those leaflets...'). The Holocaust happened - you’re with me on this one, right? - and is worth writing about, as, needless to say, is what happened in the Soviet Union. Fashions come and go in the study of history (who would have thought thirty years ago, for example, that people would be so obsessed de nos jours with the minutiae of their ancestors’ daily lives?); to put this down to of any sort of concerted ‘Jewish effort’ is ridiculous and I would hope that you’re not trying to do so.

Besides, I've read several very good books about Soviet casualties in WWII. Not sure the notion that there's a deficiency in this department holds water.

I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.

Thames Television? Esteemed Purveyor of trash TV to the masses? There are better sources, no?

Mihkkal · March 16th, 2004, 02:44 PM

Well, I was planning to write something long about this - but then I realized I can mostly just say "Go Lindzi!".

I see the logic of states paying money to victims of their own earlier misdoings - like the USA giving compensation to the Native Americans - but if individuals were to carry the guilt of their forefathers/foremothers, what should f.ex. a German/Jew or any kind of Metis do? Should we sue ourselves?

There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It is kind of annoying (not to say unfair) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".

For one thing, this is proposterous because Arabs are semittes too.
And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.

Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)? It's true, isn't it? Given, it is also true that fundamentalist Protestants might have even more responsibility for the military/economical support to Israel - but when people point this out, they are never called anti-christian.

I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.

Regarding the WWII thing, it is true that the massacres of gypsies, soviet-citizens and other groups are not dealt with enough when we learn about the Holocaust. I do, however, not think that this is a part of any Global Jewish Conspiracy - it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...

Mihkkal · March 16th, 2004, 02:46 PM

it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...

I did of course mean: Soviet-citizens, GYPSIES and homosexuals...

**joysof** · March 17th, 2004, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mihkkal

There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It is kind of annoying (not to say unfair) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".

Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel? I brought up anti-Semitism in response to comments about 'Holocaust BS'.

And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.