Thread: Iran

Originally Posted by quartz

hmmm what could it be?

I think nothing except for Iran's fighting back. But that might end the same way as it does elsewhere, mightn't it?

Originally Posted by quartz

What if it's a killer cheese from outer space?

Come to think of it... maybe we'd rather give it the Nobel Peace Prize and make it a head of the Cheesy state.

So, if Iran goes on and on executing the heads of the terrorist organizations, would you share the fear that Iran would run out of the Nobel Peace Prize winners and the heads of state?

Elegantly rephrased!
You enlightened me. I can't imagine how much talent is already wasted that way! By the way, the only Iranian Noble Prize winner has won the Peace prize. And guess what: She's got so close to getting executed for expressing secular opinions and human rights activities. You see, in Iran there's a reverse trend regarding Noble Peace Prize and execution.
But seriously, you have to distinguish between different terrorists. We got "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists". One is bound to conclude that "the only good terrorists are dead terrorists."
As for torture, he definitely must have been under pressure, but I just can't feel sympathy with him. And even if he didn't confess anything, it would still be crystal clear that he'd been receiving military aid from Taliban, let alone CIA and other chaps. The sheer thought that we have such nice eastern neighbors makes my blood boil and freeze at the same time.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

But seriously, you have to distinguish between different terrorists. We got "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists". One is bound to conclude that "the only good terrorists are dead terrorists."

Alright. So, what do you suggest should have been done with a bit fun guy, a prisoner of conscience Nelson Mandela? And what should be done with another head of state Mahmoud Abbas? Or we just deem both of them 'bad terrorists' and let them leading the states?

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

As for torture, he definitely must have been under pressure, but I just can't feel sympathy with him.

Alright. So, did I get you right that you fundamentally accept the torture as a method to convince others you're on the good guys' side?

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

And even if he didn't confess anything, it would still be crystal clear that he'd been receiving military aid from Taliban, let alone CIA and other chaps.

Did I get you right that you express accusations that the US (using its agency CIA and subsequently Jundullah) in cooperation with Taliban (that the US has recently crushed in Afghanistan) are killing innocent Iranians in order to wreak havoc in the democratically elected country?

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

The sheer thought that we have such nice eastern neighbors makes my blood boil and freeze at the same time.

Well, in the interview to the US cable channel HDnet's television Abdolmalek Rigi claimed that his goal is to "improve conditions for ethnic Baluchis", and that his group is "fighting exclusively for the rights of Sunni Muslims in Iran". Wouldn't you feel much more relaxed should the conditions for the ethnic Baluchis and the rights of Sunni Muslims improve to their satisfaction? As Bob Marley sang:

"Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: don't give up the fight! "

I would appreciate your comments on that.

Thanks.

Alright. So, what do you suggest should have been done with a bit fun guy, a prisoner of conscience Nelson Mandela? And what should be done with another head of state Mahmoud Abbas? Or we just deem both of them 'bad terrorists' and let them leading the states?

Nelson Mandela had his suffering. Mahmoud Abbas isn't exactly the archetype of a ruthless terrorist either. My point was that even if they are equal from the legal point of view [murder is murder], there's still a difference felt in the way they kill. Has Mahmoud Abbas ever blown up a mosque with people praying inside?

Alright. So, did I get you right that you fundamentally accept the torture as a method to convince others you're on the good guys' side?

No, you didn't. I said I don't feel sympathy with him. How does that mean that I fundamentally accept torture? [He should have been under pressure= It was advisable to put him under pressure./ He must have been under pressure= There is evidence that he's been under pressure. (That's my interpretation. Is it wrong, native English speakers?)]
We just have to agree, in a world where there is suicide bombing, there is torture too.
You know, I do feel sympathy with Alekos Panagoulis, or Konstantin Rokossovky for that matter. Seems like they suffered for a good cause.

Did I get you right that you express accusations that the US (using its agency CIA and subsequently Jundullah) in cooperation with Taliban (that the US has recently crushed in Afghanistan) are killing innocent Iranians in order to wreak havoc in the democratically elected country?

That's what Rigi confessed. He knew he was going to be executed. He didn't have to drag the US into this business, being aware that it wouldn't help anything. You know, that's the difference. That one wouldn't confess and tolerated the torture, because he believed in something. This one confesses, because he believes in nothing but death.
But you are terribly wrong on that "democratically elected" thing. Or perhaps it was a joke?

Well, in the interview to the US cable channel HDnet's television Abdolmalek Rigi claimed that his goal is to "improve conditions for ethnic Baluchis", and that his group is "fighting exclusively for the rights of Sunni Muslims in Iran".

And finally, here's the main point. That's what I meant by "trying to look like a hero". He wanted to kill. He could just keep killing and shut it up. But he took advantage of people's religious and ethnic prejudice. Dirtier is unimaginable.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Nelson Mandela had his suffering.

Well, some people like Ramil would say that the only adequate penalty for killing is the death sentence. So, according to those, a bit fun Nelson Mandela did not have enough suffering.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

My point was that even if they are equal from the legal point of view [murder is murder], there's still a difference felt in the way they kill. Has Mahmoud Abbas ever blown up a mosque with people praying inside?

No he hadn't, because his enemies do not use mosques to pray. But, I agree with you, Mahmoud Abbas was not as ruthless killer as Yassir Araft. That's why Mahmoud Abbas didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize, unlike Yassir Arafat.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

No, you didn't. I said I don't feel sympathy with him. How does that mean that I fundamentally accept torture? We just have to agree, in a world where there is suicide bombing, there is torture too.

Ok, got you, so shall we torture Mahmoud Abbas? There are lots of suicide bombings in his world, aren't they?

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Seems like they suffered for a good cause.

Uhm, what's bad in a cause "improve conditions for ethnic Baluchis" and "fighting exclusively for the rights of Sunni Muslims in Iran?"

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

That's what Rigi confessed.

But, he was most likely tortured!! So, his 'confession' does not worth a dime! That's how the Iranian officials want to portray the Jundullah. You can't really draw any conclusions based on his 'confessions'.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

But you are terribly wrong on that "democratically elected" thing. Or perhaps it was a joke?

Yes, it was. Russian elections are also democratic. There's so much interest in the elections that in some electoral districts the participation is more than 100% of voters.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

That's what I meant by "trying to look like a hero". He wanted to kill. He could just keep killing and shut it up. But he took advantage of people's religious and ethnic prejudice. Dirtier is unimaginable.

What about the other leaders? Why can't you say that about Yassir Arafat? Or Nelson Mandela? Or, perhaps, Fidel Castro wanted to kill and torture people so much so that he took advantage of the working class fellows, used some demagogy and made that whole heroic 'revolution' thing? Do you know how many people [a bit fun] Fidel Castro have killed? The poor Rigi guy is no match for that revolutionary giant who [presumably] wanted a lot of social justice. How can you really make a difference?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Misha, would you be able to comment on the recent execution of Abdolmalek Rigi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdolmalek_Rigi)?
Thanks.

(It was truly horrible to see pictures of Iranian people who were hanged in PUBLIC. It seemed medieval to me. I don't care what they've done; why not let them work off their debt to society in a mine, building roads or something like that... ? )

OK Misha, so you don't like the government of Iran...

So what do you prefer:

1) Free elections and let the majority decide...

2) Slow reforms in the existing government

3) Revolution; Overthrow the current government and bring in something pro-West / non-religious

4) Invasion: Let America come and sort it out...

5) Other... ?

To Crocodile:
I'd like to invite you to take a second look at my previous post, with these additions in mind:
1-His death sentence was confirmed practically the moment he was arrested. If he was really fighting for a good cause, why did he have to even mention the US? He could just say: "Yeah, yeah, I did it all. And I wanna see you all go to the deuce."
2-He asked for forgiveness! My @ss!! If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't mock myself and all I had done for "the rights of Sunni Muslims in Iran" that way.
3-Many Sunni scholars had condemned his deeds. I come from northern Iran, but I know for a fact that people were not with him in southern provinces.
4-Let's come to an understanding: WHOEVER who kills in the name of Islam is a liar. Real Muslims are ashamed upon seeing that the likes of Bin Laden have destroyed the image of Islam. Rigi and his gang once stopped a dozen passing cars in a remote road in midnight, forced all men out, and fired at them in front of the eyes of women and children. Just for the heck of it. My friend, believe me, there is not a particle of Islam in that.
To Hanna:
As I have said before, we all have spent a long time discussing those possibilities. Ask other Iranians and they'll give you the most varied answers. But in my personal opinion:
Option 1 is already done away with (from the government's point of view).
Option 2 is my preferred solution.
Option 3 has already been tried. The 1979 Revolution showed, if nothing else, that the Iranian nation is capable of a large-scale social-political reform. Many other nations are not. But for us, another try is unthinkable, as it might throw us 30 years backward.
Option 4 is just impossible. The US would love to do it, instead of messing with Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran is totally different from the entire Middle East.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

He asked for forgiveness! My @ss!!

I appreciate your political stand. However, these days you can take a person and make him say whatever you want. There are drugs that work. Believe me. Don't judge someone until you're in their shoes.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Let's come to an understanding: WHOEVER who kills in the name of Islam is a liar.

I like that saying. I wish it would be practically useful, though. For example: WHOEVER kills in the name of the social justice is a liar. (Because, if you don't like people being poor and ashamed why would you agree to kill people?) But, even if it's the simple truth, what's in that for those who were killed? People were and still are killed in the name of the social justice. And people were and are killed in the name of Islam. And in the name of the freedom. And democracy. And so on.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Rigi and his gang once stopped a dozen passing cars in a remote road in midnight, forced all men out, and fired at them in front of the eyes of women and children. Just for the heck of it.

I think he did it for the heck of 'improving conditions for ethnic Baluchis' and the 'rights for Sunni Muslims' so to speak. Why wouldn't Iran improve those conditions-n-rights after all? As the modern saying goes, there's no military way to solve that issue, there are only diplomatic ways. So, why not starting negotiations with ethnic Baluchis and Sunni Muslims? I mean, the second part of that Nobel Peace Prize would definitely go to Iran's Head of State.

...these days you can take a person and make him say whatever you want. There are drugs that work. Believe me. Don't judge someone until you're in their shoes.

Is that the ticket? So all confessions of all criminals are suddenly rendered worthless.
But you made me remember an episode: we witnessed some political trials last summer in Tehran, very similar to Stalin's show trials in Moscow, the only significant difference being that nobody was actually executed. I was convinced that it is possible to make people confess without torture. You might have read that breath-taking book "Darkness at Noon". Not everyone who confesses is severely tortured.

I think he did it for the heck of 'improving conditions for ethnic Baluchis' and the 'rights for Sunni Muslims' so to speak. Why wouldn't Iran improve those conditions-n-rights after all? As the modern saying goes, there's no military way to solve that issue, there are only diplomatic ways. So, why not starting negotiations with ethnic Baluchis and Sunni Muslims? I mean, the second part of that Nobel Peace Prize would definitely go to Iran's Head of State.

I see you have some well-thought-out suggestions here! You could submit that to our president's office. Should I give you his address?!

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Is that the ticket? So all confessions of all criminals are suddenly rendered worthless.

Not all, but some of them are false confessions. Especially those which outline very few details and aren't questioned. Please have a look at http://www.llrx.com/features/falseconfessions.htm

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

I see you have some well-thought-out suggestions here! You could submit that to our president's office. Should I give you his address?!

Yeah, bring it on! See? We have exchanged a lot of messages and NONE of them was about nuclear weapons or Iranian-Israeli relationship.
(Although it seems to only take an inch or so for you to align yourself with some of the hard-core chauvinistic Israeli parties on their tough policies towards the Palestinian terrorists. )

А у меня тоже есть некоторые предложения для Дмитрия Анатолевича. Может, поменяемся?!
(предложение для кого-нибудь или предложение кому-нибудь?)

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

А у меня тоже есть некоторые предложения для Дмитрия Анатольевича. Может, поменяемся?!
(предложение для кого-нибудь или предложение кому-нибудь?)

it depends on a verb:

У меня есть предложения для кого-либо versus Я предложил кому-либо (сделал предложение usually means marriage proposal).

P.S. And what a Russian-speaking Canadian reptile of Ukrainian origin have in common with D.A.? (No offence, Crocodile, just joking ).

Originally Posted by Basil77

P.S. And what a Russian-speaking Canadian reptile of Ukrainian origin have in common with D.A.? (No offence, Crocodile, just joking ).

Wow! When have I become of Ukrainian origin? Sadly, I missed that pivotal point.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Wow! When have I become of Ukrainian origin? Sadly, I missed that pivotal point.

Sorry, my mistake, It seemed to me that you wrote somewhere on this forum that you visit some ralatives in Ukrane from time to time.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Sorry, my mistake, It seemed to me that you wrote somewhere on this forum that you visit some ralatives in Ukrane from time to time.

Those are my wife's relatives.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by Basil77

Sorry, my mistake, It seemed to me that you wrote somewhere on this forum that you visit some ralatives in Ukrane from time to time.

Those are my wife's relatives.

Basil is recording everything. Be careful what you say

Originally Posted by quartz

Basil is recording everything. Be careful what you say

Maybe it's hereditary, at least I'm a son of Soviet KGB colonel.

With apologies to the Bard:
"Dima!
Beware of Putinus, take heed of Yanokovichus;
Come not near Obama, have an eye to Svetlana!
Trust not Kadyrovus, mark well Ostap Bender!
Angelaus Merkelus loves thee not, thou hast wronged Nicolaus Sarkozyus.
There is but one mind in all these "men",
And it is bent against Dima!
If thou beest no immortal, look about you:
Security gives way to conspiracy.
The mighty gods defend thee!
Thy lover,
Mishaus Talus."

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by Basil77

Sorry, my mistake, It seemed to me that you wrote somewhere on this forum that you visit some ralatives in Ukrane from time to time.

Those are my wife's relatives.

Тогда таинственного крокодила.... скажи пожалуйстса откуда ты?