Thread: Germans and Russians are brothers

Originally Posted by Dima

Good post. But war on the West and war on the East were too different. On the military forums I often meet young Germans that proudly say "We were better! Those wild hordes of bolsheviks just outnumbered us. We killed much more Russians than they killed us!". In that moment I think Uncle Joe was too kind to Germans. I think very few of Russians would blame him if he ordered to make the score equal.

WW2 is still an open wound in almost every Russian family.

Really, hardly that shout - " hordes of bolsheviks ". These hordes were than that are armed. And they probably also did not know, that right at the beginning of war from the western part of Russia have transported to Ural and the Far East hundreds, if not thousand enterprises (including the big factories). For example in Omsk (Siberia) before war there were 2-3 factories, after the beginning of war there have transported some tens factories which have started to work after have made the base and have mounted the equipment (only then gradually put walls and a roof). And all this was done{made} in the winter, I hope a word "Siberia" to you something speaks? On the days off at us showed documentary film about assault planes " Silts - 2 ". Germans named them " black death ". For war it has been let out{it has been released} about 40000 pieces. At Germans the similar plane was. For all time of war they have let out{have released} less thousand. Or for example a jet mortar "Katusha". Germans have attacked the USSR on June, 22, 1941, and in November, 1941 at them the seized efficient copy together with a stock of rockets already was. But to repeat manufacturing techniques of rockets they and could not. Have made " similar analogue ", a mortar which was much less effective. And so in many respects. Already to the middle of war Russian industry surpassed in manufacture of the weapon German.
But it is always easier to shout " hordes red have captivated the ground of a thousand-year Reich ".

Originally Posted by Ger

Originally Posted by woolliamser

Germany has done what it can since to ensure that it never ever happens again and continues to pay huge reparations to Israel, which Israel spends on ... (but I don't want to start another arguement).

Германия до сих пор платит репарации Израилю?
А интересно почему?!
Germany till now pays reparations to Israel?
And it is interesting why?!

This is something my German friends told me and they said that it was a big issue in Germany recently. I don't really know the details. I've just had a look on the web and got lots of conflicting reports, it seems that there were two types of reparations --- one in which Germany paid money to survivors and that is still being paid to the survivors still alive, and one where Germany paid money to the state of Israel. But it appears that different webpages give conflicting information on that... Pro-Israel ones seem to imply that this has stopped, pro-Palistinian ones seem to imply that Germany funded most of Israel's military and continues to support the state. I have come to the limit of my knowledge, I'm afraid!

Added to: I also once met an elderly German and mentioned I was learning Russian. He said "Ah, the Russians are a wonderful people". So I asked him about it. Apparently he fought on the Eastern Front in the second World War. His regiment were attacked and all but 3 of them were killed. He was in the middle of Russia, the enemy and had no officer, no food, no way of getting out. He walked into a nearby village and a Russian woman gave him food, drink and a bed for the night. He got back to Germany, to his wife and young daughter.

It's a wonderful story.

At home now, I've found my Granddad's poem. I made a mistake, not "moon" but lilac. Same principle though:

"Can you smell the lilac?"
Suddenly the guard spoke to me.
In the white moonlight
The tree stood glorious ---
Sedate and happy as a maid.
In the greyness of the night
The guard sensed beauty:
This was his Heimat and it brought him peace.
Unconsciously he shared his joy with the prisoner,
Who understood and rejoiced with him.
A cloud shut out the moon,
And we trudged on.
But we had smelt the lilac
And the beauty that had made us one
Had triumphed.

Thank you for sharing that poem Wooliamser, it is beautiful. You have a great view point. It is not naive, but it is simple and true. It is the only way to move foward.

1. woolliamser: i totally agree with you. austria and germany are still paying a lot of money to the jewish victims.
and i also grew up with this "i am guilty, because my ancestors started ww2" thing, and i now must say that i do not feel guilty at all. i am 23, what the hell am i responsible for my grandparents?

2. to come back to the main topic: in austria a lot of older people do not like russians because of ww2 and the years after the war. and younger people...well, some just do not care and others dislike russia and all the other "eastern"states, because we grew up with the arrogant opinion (most times we learnt at school) that we are better than slawic peoples, which is ridiculous, because most austrians have slawic ancestors...

I think Germany has paid a total of $71billion since the 1950s, or something insane like that. They were paying Jews in Poland and Russia too, but I think in the 60s the USSR stopped accepting the money. Or maybe it was just Poland. I forget. Anyway, this reminds me of the ignorant reparations a few blacks want the US government to pay the whole race for slavery. While it would be wrong to say our country wouldn't be a superpower if we didn't build up vast fortunes of capital industry on the backs of African slaves, to put a financial estimate on the value of people's lives in my opinion would be not only impossible but insulting. I had an Austrian computer science professor once. Man her voice made me well nevermind. I just realized most of this is totally irrelevant and uninteresting. I have a habit of digression and I apologize.

To solanum:
What, Austria is paying reparations? Really?! Why? This country was victim of Hitler's aggression, like the others.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

To solanum:
What, Austria is paying reparations? Really?! Why? This country was victim of Hitler's aggression, like the others.

Have you seen how Hitler was cheered when the Nazis took over in Austria? Sure, there were people who objected, but IIRC no shots were fired. Many Austrians got posts in the Reich (the Netherlands were ruled by Seyss-Inquart, an Austrian) and it would be false to put Austria on the same level as Poland, the USSR or even the Netherlands and Belgium.

Pfff... Austrians...

Who do dey think they ar anyway?!?!

Germans?!?!

Maybe because Hitler was Austrian..

kongratz mike, j00 got my subtle message in da preevius powst

scorpio: most austrians wanted to be a part of the reich, and austria was. there are many explainations why austrians wanted it, but - of course - no excuses...
i personally think that it is right to give money to the victims. but in austria there are also offspring of jewish victims (who were not even born during the war) who want compensation...and i think this is wrong...

To solanum: probably many austrians wanted to become part of reich, but were they actually *asked*? I doubt there was referendum of something like... Whatever the people say, the "anshluss" (or how it's spelled right) was the military occupation in the first place. Probably, there were not much resistance - but also it weren't in Chekhoslovakia in 1938. However, latter is considered the "victim of nazism" without doubts.

Also, it is interesting to compare this situation with the problem of Baltic states. Now they claim they were "occupated" by USSR in 1940. What do you think, and how you'll define term "occupation" properly?

@scorpio:

well, i do not know anything about the baltic states, to be honest.
but in austria there was a vote wheter austria wants the Anschluss or not. but before anybody knew the results, hitler "invaded". i cannot remember the exact numbers, but i will look for them, and then i will tell you, if you are interested....
and most people were happy, because 1st hitler promised that everybody gets a job and 2nd the whole nazi ideology....

tell me about the baltic states!

Originally Posted by piehunt

I agree with many of woolliamser's points. Also Gollandski Yozh makes a good argument too.

My Russian friends are 50-50 on Germans, some still don't like or trust them, others are indifferent to them. And one says live and let live, it was a long time ago etc etc.
I don't think it's the Germans that Russia should worry about, the muslims are coming! And they are all carrying a lot of baggage with them!

PS..if you didn't already know, i love Russia. So that's two Brits now, at least.

You fucking britts. You slaughtered serbs. And still are forcing them out from their land. You aint no friend to russians either. Your false concern over Russia is obvious. You satanise in medis Russia, and portraiting them as monsters who are not defending themselves. But on the contrary onl

Originally Posted by woolliamser

One thing I get very upset about is when I hear people saying they hate "all" Germans because of WW2. I have many German friends in their mid 20s. They tell me that every year at school they were taught to learn from their grandparents mistakes, to feel guilty for being German. And they say... but what can we do? We weren't born then, we can't change the past. What happened in Germany back then was terrible, the war that followed was also terrible. But it is not so simple as "the evil Germans wanted to take over the world, which is a complete part of their character that two new generations can't destroy." No. Germany was left at the end of WW1 in a very bad state, by the British and Americans. It's not directly "our" fault that Hitler rose to power of course, but it was a combination of factors. Germany has done what it can since to ensure that it never ever happens again and continues to pay huge reparations to Israel, which Israel spends on ... (but I don't want to start another arguement).

Someone asked what can we do about people like Dogboy's friend. I know the answer: it is so important that young people get to know people of other nationalities, if she met some Germans her own age, I think her opinions would soften. That was the worst thing about the Cold War --- a wall dividing people so we could never make friends with each other. Now it's come down I think both sides realise that the other side was not quite how we thought.

It's a naive view point, I know. But I still have hope that the people of this world can live together.

My Grandfather was a prisoner of war in Germany. He wrote a poem while in the camp which really moved me. I can't remember the poem now, but the message was that one evening he was standing by the fence, looking at the moon and the German officer came up to him and said "It's a beautiful moon". And for one moment, they shared something positive together. Later on he was almost killed trying to escape. Immediately after the war he became a teacher, and only 5 years after the end of the war he organised the first of an annual school choir exchange between his school and a German school. That was the most important thing for him---that the young people met. Interestingly the men who'd been soldiers were really enthusiastic about this exchange. It was the people who had stayed in Britain that said he was wrong.

The history is repeating itself. When serbs where defending themself from croatian nazis. Most germans & britts shouted bloodthirstly "kill those fucking ortodox serbs", "poor croatian brothers & sisters", "its a pitty hitler didnt kill them all" and so on. You are disgusting :P You write, that it is so sad about Germany after world war1. Pathetic statement. Germany urged, that serbs be killed as many as possible. And the russian tsar, may he and his wonderfull family rest in peace. Saw a threat not only to the serbs, but to Russia as well. You can check out your history better, before you write pathetic false stories.

soko_ipo

One should never make sweeping generalizations about a country's people based on their government's politics. (Note that I don't quite agree with you on the political side of your arguments either.)