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Thread: G8 Summit and Russia's Prez

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors
    Em? You mean Stalin suddenly becomes a very friend of Hitler and recalls all his forces back home leaving Hitler all alone?

    That's something new to the world history...
    Geez no. I meant most of Europe couldn't defend themselves and the Soviets weren't doing the greatest job at it either--the Germans pasted 'em until Stalingrad when you guys kicked them out. We came in in 1944 to kick the Germans out of France, then Belgium and Holland, all the way to Germany. The race to Berlin with the Soviets didn't begin until we knew you were also trying to get to Berlin (when our forces met yours on the Elbe). And if Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR you'd probably still have kept your non-agression treaty. And so what if we were trying to keep the Soviets from taking over post-war Europe? We were trying to prevent communism from taking over. You may not have liked that but we would have been just as mad if you had tried to stop capitalism from doing the same.

  2. #162
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    and the Soviets weren't doing the greatest job at it either--the Germans pasted 'em until Stalingrad when you guys kicked them out
    If they really wanted to stop fascism they would put up a united front with the USSR as early as 1941 or even 1939 when the WWII began. They were waiting for one side to almost destroy another, or make the possible victory of one side clear. When the winner showed up , they began bustling.

    It's clear as noonday.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors
    If they really wanted to stop fascism they would put up a united front with the USSR as early as 1941 or even 1939 when the WWII began
    No, not in 1939 because the USSR wasn't an enemy of Hitler until 1941 when they were invaded. And after that we did become your "ally", in the sense that we were both fighting against Hitler. And you mention the US not joining up with the Soviets, but why didn't the Soviets join with us? They raced us too.

  4. #164
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    The fact is, the second front hadn't been opened until it became clear that the Soviets were winning the war. Come to think about it.
    -- Да? Коту Ваське, бл##?
    -- Нет, Я кот Васька :-/

  5. #165
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    It wasn't just the Soviets who were winning. Britain held off the Nazis for years on their own. But yes, it was clear the US and USSR didn't like each other. And indeed after WW2 came the Cold War. So history proceeds...

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSlav
    Quote Originally Posted by mishau_
    I must remind that the USSR supported German Fascism until Germans invaded on the Soviet Union itself.
    I know that. So? I wasn't talking about the USSR, just saying that the US entered the war (European front) to try to put an end to fascism.
    The reasons for USA to land in Europe were preventing Stalin from capturing the rest of Europe and V2 rocket technology from Penemunde.
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  7. #167
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    Hmm...what's the longest thread in MR history? Anyone know?
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Бармалей
    Hmm...what's the longest thread in MR history? Anyone know?
    Probably this one

  9. #169
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    No not this one, we had a competition long ago and we came quite far (20+ I am sure)

    Anyway, I am appalled at the knowledge of history on this forum. Everybody is politicizing every single action in World War II, which is a bunch of baloney. USA didn't enter the war to stop Russia, USA didn't land in Europe to stop Russia, Russia wasn't planning to have any lasting peace with Germany (plans for a pre-emptive strike against germany was ready and that is why most of the Russian equipment was destroyed during the opening hostilities), etc.

    Despite your present misgivings and biases, USA was allied with the Soviet Union during the second world war. Completely. The USA provided SU with most of their trucks, machine guns (tommy guns seem familiar) and even included planes and tanks by convoys. Only towards the end of the war did a cooler enviroment occur when for the "west" it seemed like SU wanted too much (influence in east europe). Eventually compromises were made (balkans became outside SU's hemishpere for example. So did Norway, even though SU liberated them).

    Nobody "won" the war more than anybody else
    It was a mutual effort and without each other's help it would have been much harder. Stop bickering. You all think in black and white, time to upgrade to a color brain!

    History is alot more complicated and involves many more factors than you can imagine. There is no "one" reason for doing anything.
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
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    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

    Nobody "won" the war more than anybody else
    It was a mutual effort and without each other's help it would have been much harder. Stop bickering. You all think in black and white, time to upgrade to a color brain!

    History is alot more complicated and involves many more factors than you can imagine. There is no "one" reason for doing anything.
    +1

    Hmm...what's the longest thread in MR history? Anyone know?
    This is the longest I know of:
    http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...0684&start=420

    Amazing effort considering there are only 3 contributors haha.

  11. #171
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    The one I was thinking about was: http://masterrussian.net/mforum/viewtop ... &start=405

    But it is only 28 pages, I guess the Japanese thread has now surpassed that!
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
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  12. #172
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    Looks like a very.... interesting... thread. Fortunately it was a little before my time.

  13. #173
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    Wow. The London Terror thread I get, but the Manga? That's dedication!
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSlav
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors
    The end of fascism was inevitable. They entered the war to not allow the USSR to be the first to capture Berlin and gain full control of Europe.
    Oh please, don't start this cr@p. We didn't even know we'd be racing the Soviets to Berlin when we entered the war.
    You didn't probably, but Roosevelt, Churchill and Truman did. And there is a lot of historic facts proving that.

    And the end of fascism was not inevitible. Hitler had conquered nearly all of Europe cuz Chamberlain didn't have the guts to stand up to him so he appeased him, and none of the other European powers (with the exception of Britain) seemed capable of defeating him. If they were capable, they wouldn't have all been conquered.
    Britain and France simply sold off Czhechoslovakia to Hitler in Munich in 1938 in hopes that his appetites would cease. There was no military force in Europe capable of stopping Hitler so until December 1941 his army had been thought of as unstoppable. Take a wild guess - who had finally stopped his offence? Britain? or USA maybe?

    Simple facts:
    The "Second front" should have been opened in 1942 to provide a real help to the USSR in a war. Churchill had been delaying its opening as long as he could. Allies didn't keep their promises given to Stalin in 1943 also, hoping that the war would weaken USSR and it loses its influence.
    "Land lease" which you're referring to was not a gratuitous help. USSR had to pay for every can of stew, airplane or tank it received.
    In 1944 Hitler has about 200 divisions fighting USSR on the "Eastern front" and about only 20 to oppose USA and Britain on the "Western front".
    USSR fought Hitler 4 years and finally made it to Berlin in 1945, losing 20 million men in the process, and now you came and declared that USA and Britain were the only two real winners of the WW2!
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  15. #175
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    It was a mutual effort and without each other's help it would have been much harder. Stop bickering. You all think in black and white, time to upgrade to a color brain!
    На этот счет есть очень хорошая русская поговорка: "Мы пахали". (Из какой-то басни про вола и муху).
    -- Да? Коту Ваське, бл##?
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    and now you came and declared that USA and Britain were the only two real winners of the WW2!
    I did not say the US and Britain were the only winners. I said the Soviets were not the only ones winning the war--Britain was holding off the Nazis IN ADDITION to the Soviets.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    "Land lease" which you're referring to was not a gratuitous help. USSR had to pay for every can of stew, airplane or tank it received.
    Errr... now, really? References please, because the books I've read say something different. Here are some excerpts from the web:

    "Lend-Lease was the major United States program 1941-1945 which enabled the United States to supply Britain, the Soviet Union, China and other Allied nations with vast amounts of war material (mat
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    "Land lease" which you're referring to was not a gratuitous help. USSR had to pay for every can of stew, airplane or tank it received.
    Errr... now, really? References please, because the books I've read say something different.
    Долгосрочная задолженность СССР (по основному долгу) составляла 1,1 млрд дол.: 443 млн дол. приходилось по кредитам Экспортно-импортного банка, направленным на поддержание экспорта США, а остальная сумма - по соглашению 1972 г. между США и СССР по ЛЕНД-ЛИЗУ. В соответствии с этим договором, СССР осуществил три безоговорочных платежа на сумму 48 млн дол. Погашение оставшихся обязательств по ленд-лизу в сумме 674 млн дол. было увязано с предоставлением США режима наибольшего благоприятствования по экспорту из СССР в соответствии с Торговым соглашением 1972 г. между США и СССР, к-рое до 1982 г. в силу не вступило.
    http://www.cofe.ru/finance/russian/5/296.htm

    Долг оплачен не полностью - но это долг. Он остаётся в силе и США требуют его возврата. Это - не безвоздмездная помощь. Кстати, в русском языке после этого появилось устойчивое выражение "помощь по-американски".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    Britain and France simply sold off Czhechoslovakia to Hitler in Munich in 1938 in hopes that his appetites would cease. There was no military force in Europe capable of stopping Hitler so until December 1941 his army had been thought of as unstoppable. Take a wild guess - who had finally stopped his offence? Britain? or USA maybe?
    Partly true. Britain and France screwed up majorly in Czecho. The Soviet Union was the only country who offered them military assistance!

    Anyway, you might have forgotten "operation Sea Lion". What do you think Germany was doing from 1940-1941? They were planning to invade England and failed. That is a major reason why they attacked SU instead!
    Гитлер просто хотел посадить на английский трон опального герцога Виндзорского и не хотел воевать с Англией. Наоборот - он надеялся таким образом получить Англию в союзники. И вот когда у него этого не получилось - только тогда он начал боевые действия против Англии.
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  19. #179
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    О Дне Победы, ленд-лизе и долгах ...
    Во вторник мы отмечали День Победы. Который порохом пропах, со слезами на глазах, с сединою на висках. Иногда вопрос возникает – а сколько мы его еще праздновать будем? Пока жив хоть один участник? Пока не проржавеет насовсем последний Ford, Dodge или Studebaker, бывшие костяком военного автотранспорта? А их доставили в СССР в количестве 427 700 штук. А были еще пароходы, паровозы, железнодорожные вагоны, тракторы, электростанции и многое другое.

    Помню, у отца было кожаное капитанское пальто, полученное по ленд-лизу из Америки. Буйволовая кожа необычайно крепости. Он рассказал, что однажды во время шторма его смыло волной, потащило за борт, но зацепился за какой то крюк петлей и остался живым. Это спасительное пальто я потом взял себе, было оно потертое и потому его приходилось каждый год красить в специальной мастерской. Красили там особой нитрокраской, как автомобиль. Носить его было нелегко, но защита была полная. Ночью ли накрыться в холодной сибирской гостинице, сквозь автобусную давку ли протиснуться – вещь была незаменимая, сделанная на совесть.

    Ветераны еще помнят американскую тушенку, шоколад, яичный порошок и соевое молоко, про которое ходил анекдот. Девочка пишет отцу на фронт: «Папа, убей всех фрицев и соевых коров!» Все это возили через океан караванами судов типа «Либерти». Они имели секционную конструкцию и их строгали с такой американской деловитостью, что поставленный тогда рекорд до сих пор не перекрыт – океанское судно на 12 тысяч тонн построили за 8 дней 17 часов и сколько-то минут. Короче, по тогдашним деньгам поставили в Союз товару на 13,5 миллиардов долларов. Сейчас это, по моим грубым подсчетам, тянет примерно на полтриллиона.

    Война кончилась, по договору от 11 июня 1942 года американцы попросили заплатить. Нет, за военные поставки платить было не нужно, это было подарком безвозмездным, но за гражданские поставки хотя бы, граждане, отдайте, как положено по закону. В 1948 году советская сторона предложила отдавать по чуть-чуть, американцы отказались наотрез. Переговоры 1949 года тоже ни к чему не привели. В 1951 году Америка дважды снизила сумму до 800 миллионов, СССР предлагал только 300 миллионов. Так оно и тянулось до брежневского периода. Только в 1972 году СССР обязался до 2001 года заплатить 722 миллионов долларов, включая проценты. К июлю 1973 года были осуществлены три платежа на общую сумму 48 миллиона долларов, после чего дальнейшие выплаты прекратились.

    В июне 1990 был установлен новый срок окончательного погашения долга — 2030 год, и сумма — 674 миллионов долларов. Вот когда расплатимся, тогда в День Победы можно дышать вольготно, во всю грудь. Не только победили, но и никому ничего не должны.
    Сева Новгородцев, Би-Би-Си
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/blogs/a...47199037.shtml

  20. #180
    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Вот я и говорю - Лэнд Лиз никогда не был безвозмездной помощью.
    Send me a PM if you need me.

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