Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

(Вытерто. Л.) Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government? That is quite a narrow viewpoint.

No. There probably are people who support sovereignty and oppose the interim government. Did you have an example?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else. I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights. Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs. There is no justification.

I don't like it or dislike it. I'm only concerned about what happens next. And nobody can deny that it would dramatically increase hostilities in a situation that's already explosive.
Everything I've posted in this thread has been facts that can be found in the mainstream Western media. The only emotional statement I've made was this: "As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!"
If you are looking at this with neutral eyes then you must answer these questions:
1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering?
3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there. It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction. Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian. I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.

That's why I verify anything I find in the media. I haven't posted anything that can't be verified by the facts. I will also be happy to post links that support any statement I've made. All my sources are bookmarked and very well organized.
And yeah, real-life Ukrainian comments on the crisis are very important. But don't forget that those Russian-speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years UNDER Russian-friendly Ukrainian Presidents. To know how they are living under the interim government, you will have to talk to the Russian-speaking activists.
But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
LOL! You obviously talk to no Russians.

I wasn't talking about buying a new Lamborghini. But if I was, I'd be all over those CEO's to get an Egoista! It totally does own the market!
You obviously play safe. I don't. I won't really know Russia till I've lived there (and I'm not talking about the expat zone). Btw, I cooked my first Borscht and it was the most awesome food I've ever eaten. I'll be making blini tomorrow. Russian food FTW!
I got the Recipes from Russian sites and translated them.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this? I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here). It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible. Quite the tactic (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored. Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized. There's always the possibility of a hostile response.

What did rights in Russia have to do with this? And it's only one-sided debates that are "tactics". I was just pointing out that all nations are imperfect and that harsh Nationalistic criticism of the nations involved is pointless.
Please define "pro-Putin views". Anyway, like I mentioned in another thread (I don't remember which one), I have studied both world history and military history and I know a little about politics too. But I do NOT wanna be a politician or a political critic. The only non-civilian interests I have are in the military.
Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin. Not sure why you throw out that example. Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.
You obviously have a lot to learn about the country. Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

I threw out the Russia Today example because it was in dad's bookmarks. Since I don't have a serious interest in politics, I get a lot of help with my posts from him. And this isn't school so it's not cheating.
And if the Kremlin is monitoring Russia Today then fine... If they don't mess up the sports section or the cartoons.
What is a "pro-Putin type Russian"? *seriously confused*
But you're right. I do have a LOT to learn about Russia and I'll be learning most of it when I get there. I mean you can read about swimming 24/7/365 but you don't really know what it is till you jump in the water. I didn't really know what 3 meter diving was till I touched the bottom of the pool. And yeah, it was kinda scary but I wouldn't be diving off 3 meter boards if I hadn't tried.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.

It might not be the right place to put this up, but since you already touched upon this subject...

Russia Approves Law Imposing Stricter Rules On Bloggers

So, your freedom to write is being seriously restricted in a certain country, and the scariest part of that is that it only seems to be the beginning...

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering?
3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?

If answers ##1 & 4 aren't obvious to you, then would you mind answering if ANY OTHER country has a right to interfere there, and if such an interference would be justified, and if not, then why?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.

And it should have been. For that conflict is happening on the Ukrainian territory, and it's the Ukrainians who have the final word in that argument.