Thread: Flight MH17 - What happened and is it politically important

As far as most people in Western Europe and the USA know (after reading the papers or watching the news), the rebels shot down the plane with a "BUK" missil launcher provided by Russia. Further proof of this theory is that a senior rebel was overheard talking on the phone about how they accidentally shot down the plane, and that it was Ukraine's fault for not stopping commercial traffic over Donbass.

Media in lots of European countries didn't only blame the separatists, but Russia as a country, and Putin as an individual, very strongly and quite ridiculously - what on earth would Russia or Putin gain from this?!

Nothing was said about whether it would have been a mistake, but I think all realise that nobody in this conflict would have shot down a passenger plane on purpose. Whoever did it simply made a mistake.

On the other hand, the rebels said from the beginning that the UA airforce downed the plane, believing it was a Russian recognaissance plane.
Now, a nameless witness came forward and named somebody called Vladislav Voloshin as the captain of a fighter plane that supposedly shot down MH17. The witness passed a lie detector test and there is a captain Voloshin in the UA airforce.

The Dutch investigators came up with nothing useful so far - unbelievable. Nothing from the black box, nothing from analysing the pieces of the plane. I find that absolutely astonishing. Frankly beginning to wonder if their is foul play - maybe it was just too convenient to blame the rebels and Russia. A bit more embarrassing if the very Ukrainian government that the Netherlands itself, as part of the EU helped put in place in Ukraine, shot down the plane. That's apparently what relatives of the victims in the Netherlands are beginning to suspect. Anyone more than me beginning to wonder how objective and truthful this investigation plans to be.... Reminds me of the Estonia ferry disaster in 1994 - where my own government was very obviously not wanting the truth to come out, and acted downright bizarre.

Someone somewhere, whether rebel or Ukrainian army knows what happens and I wonder if they can sleep at night. They should do the decent thing and come clean!



Meanwhile as seen on "Newsteam RT" the posessions of the passengers of MH17 are still scattered across fields in Eastern Ukraine

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Please respond politely and nicely out of courtesy and respect for fellow human beings whether Russian, Ukrainian or other.
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There is an opinion that "overheard senior rebel" record is a fake -

There is also quite interesting information that one of the blamed sides(Kiev) somehow gets a right to veto any information that would be published about the MH17 crash. Which is astonishing and ridiculous - Transparency?! Why do we allow Kiev to write the official report on MH17? -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net

The Dutch preliminary report also has missing information on page 14 about Kiev's NOTAM report about an Antonov airplane that was shot down on July 14th on altitude 9750m. Meaning that Kiev should have closed the airspace but didn't because they would have lost a lot of money - Schwere Vorwürfe an ukrainische Behörden: Luftraum hätte gesperrt werden müssen | tagesschau.de

Hanna, I agree that we probably will never know the truth. Everybody lies.
But I want to add, that it is completely insane for airlines to fly over area where the aircrafts are being downed on daily basis.
They even shifted course slightly toward most dangerous point.

P.S. In September, Russian airlines were carrying me over Ukraine twice! I was scared to be honest. So, airlines (at least some of them) do not give a damn for us, passengers, too

If the witness story were a lie as Ukrainian goverment says when why they didn't publically check the pilot on a lie detector to cancel suspects? This is the guy who shot down the plane according to the witness:

Thanks for the info! Good to see that some of my favourite debaters in the forum are back.
Just hoping that Ramil and it-ogo find their way back.

I am cautiously siding with the rebels in this conflict for the reason

1) The ousting of Yanukovich was clearly orchestrated from abroad.
2) That a government should bomb and kill thousands of their own citizens is totally unacceptable to me. The US would use something like that as a reason to invade, even if the country was on the other side of the planet. This is right on Russia's border but Putin, Medvedev or Lavrov have not even been seen handing out cookies in Donetsk or Lugansk..
3) The People's republics are clearly local initiatives and whatever support they receive from Russia is almost certainly from individuals and organisations, not from the government. However, it seems without doubt that there are citizens of Russia (and other countries) fighting with the rebels as volunteers.

As for whether there are Nazis in the new Ukrainian government, or not, I couldn't say for sure, and it's probably not my business anyway.

Also I don't have a view on who downed MH17 apart from that whoever did it must have made an unintentional mistake.

However I REALLY object to the villification of either side, until there is firm proof.

If I wanted to see a conspiracy on the recent claim, I would have said that the informant should come forward with his full name, after having helped his family to leave Ukraine.
Otherwise anyone could say that he simply saw Voloshin on TV and made up the story.

If I was to make a guess, I'd say that it is much more likely that a commercial airplane flying at that height was downed by an airforce, than a ragtag bunch of rebels. I am not aware that any rebels in any conflict have managed to do something like that before, and it seems unlikely that they would have the equipment and the know-how.

I also think it's near unbelievable that the investigation hasn't come up with anything other than stating the obvious - it smells of cover up, because possibly, the truth is embarrasing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't have a view on who downed MH17 apart from that whoever did it must have made an unintentional mistake.

I still admit the possibility of a "false flag" operation by USA secret services and the junta in Kiev (at least some forces in it). Note, that until the tragedy with the plane EU officials were not so ready to switch into full scale "anti-russian" mode. It was only USA, Canada and Australia before the crush. But after the crash Merkel's (=Germany's=EU's) rethorics changed drastically. I guess that NSA has so much compromising information about her (considering that they were listening all her phone talks for many years) that she is ready to do what they say, but she had an excuse to not obey fully to USA's order to switch "full anti-Russian" - public opinion in Europe. The MH17 crash cancelled that excuse and she had to obey fully.
At the other hand I just can't imagine ANY reason for Putin or rebels to intentionally shoot down the plane except being very very evil.

Yes, with the CIA you can never rule anything out.
But a false flag with something as big as this - a plane full of EU citizens.... It doesn't seem likely to me.

So remarkable in this day and age that they can't figure out whether the plane was shot from the ground with a missile, or from a plane at a similar height and speed.

Angela Merkel seems so completely transparent at a first glance. What dirt could they possibly have about her that would shock anyone? Hard to think of anything. The only thing I'd say is that I find her journey from model marxist to christian democrat somewhat incredible. . Very convenient that her personal shift in ideology and faith blended in perfectly with developments in the world... Or is she just a shameless careerist who will go wherever the wind blows?

The People's republics are clearly local initiatives and whatever support they receive from Russia is almost certainly from individuals and organisations, not from the government.

If it was true, it would be even worse. If such guys
Pictures & Photos of Robbie Coltrane - IMDb
could sell heavy weapons, then ...
Hanna, Russia does not admit the weapons shipping , but it's just a wicked game. It's "common practice" in our days.

As far as I have seen on the news (mainly RT Newsteam) the rebels have quite outdated kit. They say themselves that it's from the Ukrainian army and old Soviet kit that is still around.
I would have thought that if Russia helped them, they would have more high-tech equipment.

Also how does the upraising benefit Russia, since Russia doesn't plan to annex the Donbass?
I don't see what Russia has to gain from a civil war in Eastern Ukraine.
If it was the entire border region, I'd say that Russia perhaps wanted a buffer between itself and Ukraine in NATO. But there are several areas in Ukraine that border Russia but where there is no upraising.

Originally Posted by Hanna

As far as I have seen on the news (mainly RT Newsteam) the rebels have quite outdated kit. They say themselves that it's from the Ukrainian army and old Soviet kit that is still around.
I would have thought that if Russia helped them, they would have more high-tech equipment.

Also how does the upraising benefit Russia, since Russia doesn't plan to annex the Donbass?
I don't see what Russia has to gain from a civil war in Eastern Ukraine.
If it was the entire border region, I'd say that Russia perhaps wanted a buffer between itself and Ukraine in NATO. But there are several areas in Ukraine that border Russia but where there is no upraising.

Their equipment doesn't seem so outdated since they are able to hold back an entire army and shoot down military aircraft.

If Russia is in fact provoking a civil war there, I don't think anyone would know the "real" reason; propaganda machines work quite effectively in every country in the world, but theories are: to have a land corridor to Crimea, or to keep Ukraine unstable so that it won't be prepared to join NATO/EU stuff, also that NATO wants to put missiles in Ukraine to threaten Russia. So if you believe any of that then it makes sense. Also this is an area with mines, natural resources, and weapons factories.

Anyway, as far as the original topic, it's hard for me to believe that just 1 month before this incident I had three flights within this country, one terminating 200 km from one of the hot spots... I can't believe it's come to this.

Originally Posted by Basil77

If the witness story were a lie as Ukrainian goverment says when why they didn't publically check the pilot on a lie detector to cancel suspects? This is the guy who shot down the plane according to the witness:

Ну раз Василь сказал, что таки есть свидетель и этот Волошин сбил MH17, то вопрос теперь отпадает. Свидетель не может же такое придумать. Браво, Василий!

Напомнило сценку из "Берегись автомобиля":

Originally Posted by Basil77

... why they didn't publically check the pilot on a lie detector to cancel suspects? ...

"... Иначе говоря, физиологические характеристики организма полиграф регистрирует действительно хорошо. Но вот с эффективностью выявления лжи дела у полиграфа обстоят неважно. Для иллюстрации этого вывода в отчете приведен следующий пример. Если предположить, что среди 10 000 правительственных служащих имеется 10 шпионов, то детектор лжи позволит выявить 8 из этих десяти, но при этом еще 1598 (!) вполне лояльных сотрудников окажутся ошибочно обвиненными в обмане. Если же настройки полиграфа при проверках персонала сделать менее чувствительными, в результате чего лишь 41 человек будет ошибочно обвинен во лжи, то тогда уже 8 из 10 шпионов сумеют избежать выявления и аккуратного устранения. ..."

Кто проверит детектор лжи? / 3DNews - Daily Digital Digest

OMG read this - Some Chinese person made a mysterious prediction to say the US took all the planes down, and then he predicted that an Air Asia plane would disappear this year, and warned Chinese to stay away. He made his prediciton just before Christmas. Now nobody can find him..
Chinese blogger 'predicted disappearance of missing AirAsia flight' | Daily Mail Online

Daily Mail

Despite facing continued accusations of being 'crazy', he relays a further message to 'be suspicious of the US,' writes one Reddit user who says he got a friend to translate the posts.
The blogger later claims to have persuaded some people to follow his warning.
But after December 17, there was no more activity on his account.
Since the disappearance of Flight 8051, many have reacted with astonishment at the apparent prediction, with speculation rife that he was a Chinese intelligence official or a hacker who had obtained information from the group allegedly responsible.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ну раз Василь сказал, что таки есть свидетель и этот Волошин сбил MH17, то вопрос теперь отпадает. Свидетель не может же [COLOR=#333333]такое придумать. Браво, Василий!

я думаю что свидетель скорее всего липовый, но это не означает что информация тоже не настоящая. Классический data leak: есть не совсем проверенная информация, которую официально объявлять опасно, но опубликовать стоит, находится "свидетель" который "знает" эту информацию.
Есть вероятность что это конечно все вранье от начала и до конца.

Originally Posted by Lampada

"... Иначе говоря, физиологические характеристики организма полиграф регистрирует действительно хорошо. Но вот с эффективностью выявления лжи дела у полиграфа обстоят неважно. Для иллюстрации этого вывода в отчете приведен следующий пример. Если предположить, что среди 10 000 правительственных служащих имеется 10 шпионов, то детектор лжи позволит выявить 8 из этих десяти, но при этом еще 1598 (!) вполне лояльных сотрудников окажутся ошибочно обвиненными в обмане. Если же настройки полиграфа при проверках персонала сделать менее чувствительными, в результате чего лишь 41 человек будет ошибочно обвинен во лжи, то тогда уже 8 из 10 шпионов сумеют избежать выявления и аккуратного устранения. ..."

Кто проверит детектор лжи? / 3DNews - Daily Digital Digest

when done properly, polygraphs are correct 80-99% of the time.

Beating a Polygraph Test: Myth Busted | The Polygraph Examiner