Elections in Belarus

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

...However, that situation should not be officially titled the Free Education (TM) as the government gathers tremendous political dividends from that title while, as it turns out, requires their fee in just another way.

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Exactly right.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

The thing is that almost all some of the western universities provide a lot of scholarships to those who study well. So much so that in practice you only have to pay (partially) for your bachelor degree.

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To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

The master's and ph.d. are in fact free (and you're usually left with some extra money as well).

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They already work. You forgot to tell about academicians, never mind.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

However, that situation should not be officially titled the Free Education (TM) as the government gathers tremendous political dividends from that title while, as it turns out, requires their fee in just another way.

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The word "бесплатный" literally is "unpaid", if you passed the entering contest, worked off 2 years you don't pay. The higher education is not mandatory there.

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Originally Posted by Romik

To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs.

They already work. You forgot to tell about academicians, never mind.

The word "бесплатный" literally is "unpaid", if you passed the entering contest, worked off 2 years you don't pay. The higher education is not mandatory there.

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There are very few students in Belarus who want to pass their career assignment after the university. The majority is against but they have to.

It's quite possible to find a job after the university if you're not a looser. It's better to gain experience and earn money than to work like a slave almost for nothing, isn't it?
Career assignment in Belarus is a forced labour. It's not the same as in the USA.

You are the only person here who supports lukashenko's ideology concerning education. Don't forget that the topic is presidential elections in Belarus and not education (neither in Belarus nor in the USA).

And what is the problem? Find the job, and work there 2 years.

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

There are very few students in Belarus who want to pass their career assignment after the university. The majority is against but they have to.

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There are a lot of graduates in Russia having difficulties to find desired jobs. Situation can be: "no experience -> no job" - "no job -> no experience".

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

It's quite possible to find a job after the university if you're not a looser. It's better to gain experience and earn money than to work like a slave almost for nothing, isn't it?
Career assignment in Belarus is a forced labour.

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To work like a slave almost for nothing people have for example in Russian army. You was not forced to take on the state-financed higher education.

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

You are the only person here who supports lukashenko's ideology concerning education.

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Why:

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Indeed, it might make sense for the government to pay for your education if you agree to take on the government job for two years or something like that.

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He seems just was discontented with some terminology. :)

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Originally Posted by Romik

There are a lot of graduates in Russia having difficulties to find desired jobs. Situation can be: "no experience -> no job" - "no job -> no experience".

To work like a slave almost for nothing people have for example in Russian army. You was not forced to take on the state-financed higher education.

Why:

He seems just was discontented with some terminology. :)

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I think it's better to remember the topic. Those who want to discuss education can create their own thread...
There is no point of discussing educational problems in Belarus now.

Look what's happening: massive arrests, pursuit of journalists, media war...The outcome of the elections in Belarus and that's only the beginning.

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

Look what's happening: massive arrests, pursuit of journalists, media war...The outcome of the elections in Belarus and that's only the beginning.

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Btw, how many people who were then at the square have already been detained? I've heard of approximately 1,000, and I've also heard that the authorities are going to detain each single person who showed up near that square in the evening of 12/19/2010... That's as terrible as ridiculous and absolutely awful...

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Originally Posted by Romik

To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs.

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I think I mentioned earlier it's the pass for those who study well. It seems belarusnews was the one who "entered the University with better grades than the others". If you want to call him a nerd it's your right I guess, but had he studied in a western university he would have gotten a better attention "than the others" depending on his grades. Those, who graduate well and start their masters (which aren't just the typical nerds, but that is more or less what makes the difference between a university degree (институтское образование) and a college degree (образование техникума). Those who start their master's are typically assigned a nominal job (like grading a course homeworks) which usually takes two-three hours a week and completely covers for their tuition fee. Very reasonable, I guess, comparing to a two-year low-paid job. In addition, they might be assigned the TA's job which takes more effort, but pays well. The process is started by taking a student load from a bank on a reasonable terms. The scolarships irregularly contribute something in between. As I said, in the end, once the master's is complete, a good student is left with an ultimately free high education, good grades, and a relatively brighter future. All that with not a minor hint to a communist ideology to say the least. That was my entire point. A free/unpaid/no money/no fee/etc. (whatever term you like the best, it doesn't really change a matter of things). :)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Those, who graduate well and start their masters (which aren't just the typical nerds, but that is more or less what makes the difference between a university degree (институтское образование) and a college degree (образование техникума).

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You seems muddle some things. Before masters - bachelors is not like "образование техникума". It does not make the difference that way.
"college degree" - what you understand upon it? As I know there are different colleges out there - ones that give higher education and community ones that give professional education.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Btw, how many people who were then at the square have already been detained? I've heard of approximately 1,000, and I've also heard that the authorities are going to detain each single person who showed up near that square in the evening of 12/19/2010... That's as terrible as ridiculous and absolutely awful...

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Here you can see the list of the detained people

I think a lot more than 1000 people were detained. There were actually no space for the detained people in belarusian prisons.

Most of them were released on December 29, 2010. But their lives are broken, I think. They'll have to pay a large fine and won't find a good job in the country.

Belarusian television revealed the names of the provocateurs who broke the doors of the Government Building during the protests following the presidential election

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Originally Posted by Romik

You seems muddle some things. Before masters - bachelors is not like "образование техникума". It does not make the difference that way.
"college degree" - what you understand upon it? As I know there are different colleges out there - ones that give higher education and community ones that give professional education.

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According to Знак о получении среднего профессионального образования (технического техникума) (з373) college and техникум are very close in a kind of education they provide. It's 3-4 years of a post-high-school kind of education that is named a bachelor degree. Среднее [специальное] образование. No muddling. That kind of education is not free in the western countries for an average student. There are scholarships which help, but they do not cover for the entire tuition fee. The master's university degree is equivalent to высшее образование (5-6 years of the university) and is de facto free for all the full-time master's students (yes, you have to pay for it by grading the other students' assignments working and hour or two a week, but I think that practically means free; haven't heard anyone complaining). Also, the university provides additional jobs (be it the teaching or the research) to almost all full-time master's students. That job is usually not very time-demanding and is very useful to the students, so it's just a kind of another course the students have to take. That helps to completely pay off the student loan the students had to take once they started their first year of bachelor. I call that a practically free high education for those who study well. The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy which includes the planned number of the specialists every year. Those students do not pay for their education since everything belongs to the state. Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. Be it a 120р. or $200 or $5000. That money can only buy the personal property (like fifty pairs of gloves, for example). Not a private property. The places to live are also distributed by the government the way they see fit. So, the kind of education you earned would probably correlate with a kind of job you're doing but much less with the quality of life you enjoy. That is a communist ideology and its relationship with the [free] education. Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling. ;)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

According to Знак о получении среднего профессионального образования (технического техникума) (з373) college and техникум are very close in a kind of education they provide. It's 3-4 years of a post-high-school kind of education that is named a bachelor degree. Среднее [специальное] образование. No muddling. That kind of education is not free in the western countries for an average student. There are scholarships which help, but they do not cover for the entire tuition fee. The master's university degree is equivalent to высшее образование (5-6 years of the university) and is de facto free for all the full-time master's students (yes, you have to pay for it by grading the other students' assignments working and hour or two a week, but I think that practically means free; haven't heard anyone complaining). Also, the university provides additional jobs (be it the teaching or the research) to almost all full-time master's students. That job is usually not very time-demanding and is very useful to the students, so it's just a kind of another course the students have to take. That helps to completely pay off the student loan the students had to take once they started their first year of bachelor. I call that a practically free high education for those who study well. The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy which includes the planned number of the specialists every year. Those students do not pay for their education since everything belongs to the state. Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. Be it a 120р. or $200 or $5000. That money can only buy the personal property (like fifty pairs of gloves, for example). Not a private property. The places to live are also distributed by the government the way they see fit. So, the kind of education you earned would probably correlate with a kind of job you're doing but much less with the quality of life you enjoy. That is a communist ideology and its relationship with the [free] education. Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling. ;)

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I'll provide some citations:

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Higher education in the United States and Canada specifically refers to post-secondary institutions that offer Associate's degrees, Bachelor's degrees, Master's degrees, Education Specialist (Ed.S.) degrees or Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) degrees, or their equivalents, and also higher professional degrees in areas such as medicine, dentistry, the law, optometry, etc.

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In the United States and Ireland, "college" and "university" are loosely interchangeable

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Бакалавриат в России — первый уровень высшего образования, который является базовым и длится 4 года.

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Диплом «бакалавра» дает выпускнику право при трудоустройстве занимать те должности, которые предусматривают наличие высшего образования в соответствии с их квалификационными требованиями.

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Originally Posted by Romik

I'll provide some citations:

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I will too:

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Коммунизм - есть Советская власть плюс электрификация всей страны.

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:lol2:

belarusnews, how many years have you studied after the high school?

Belarus Accuses Poland, Germany of Takeover Plot | HeraldTribune.com

Капитализм - колбаса без мяса. :(

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Originally Posted by Romik

Капитализм - колбаса без мяса. :(

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There is a much better quote:

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Одним бублик, другим - дырку от бублика. Это и есть демократическая республика.

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I wonder how what you said about the meat and the sausage fits into our previous discussion. The same way as your previous quotes? ;)

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Belarus Accuses Poland, Germany of Takeover Plot | HeraldTribune.com

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No, it obviously was the US again. :) This time though the US was successful enough to make it seem like Poland and Germany contemplated the takeover. Obviously. :elephant:

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I wonder how what you said about the meat and the sausage fits into our previous discussion. The same way as your previous quotes? ;)

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Do you think my quotes were not enough to your "no muddling"? At all do you like sausage in Canada? :)

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The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy... [...] Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. [...] Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling. ;)

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Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling. ;)
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling. ;)
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

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I agree, they were. That's what I think I said: the state was the only employer. So, if a janitor wanted to clean the public washrooms on the north side of the street or on the south side of the street, that was a choice available to him or her. However, the janitor would get the same salary established by the state regardless how clean those washrooms were. And the janitors would live in a place provided by the state when and where the state would see fit. So, when it comes to the education, it made sense for the state to cover the education cost for a rocket scientist and make those scientists work for 120 rubles a month for the rest of their lives regardless of what they were actually doing and how they performed. So, the whole point I was trying to make was that it's the communist propaganda that's muddling and makes it seem like the free education they provide is part of the state care for their people. I was trying to explain why I think it's a lie in a big picture. And back to the topic, the Belorussian government declares a free education (бесплатное образование) whilst, in fact, it doesn't provide it for free. But, in the meantime, they make it seem like they care about the young generation and that the education is their priority (or something like that). So, when a simple Belorussian is looking around and asking:

- Why am I living worse than a similar average citizen of Poland?
- Ah, but it's the whole package that matters. There's no free education in Poland, for example, but it's free in Belorussia to the good students.
- Ok, I see. The education is important for my kids too. Hope, they will be able to become engineers some day and provide good living for my grandchildren.

So, I was trying to say it's a lie, that's all. No muddling. ;)

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Originally Posted by Romik

Do you think my quotes were not enough to your "no muddling"? At all do you like sausage in Canada? :)

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From the education in the US and the UK to the sausage in Canada. Практически "из Москвы - в Нагасаки, из Нью-Йорка - на Марс!" :ROFL:
My congrats, you would do a fair politician. :bravo:
All I tried to say was a very simple thing. Our dear belorussianews would probably get a comparable education in the US and the UK without paying a dime by the time it's complete. In quite reverse to your allusion with the commies. Why it was so difficult for you to understand what I said? Why to start the casuistry of "free vs unpaid" terms or eluding to the vaguely-defined terms of college degree? Come on! I'm just a simple-minded crocodile, you don't need to be that clever with me. :beer:

PS. I buy the sausage mostly in Russian grocery stores, but that sausage is produced locally. It's just the Russian stores know how to make the right choice for me. For some reason, you can't find those sausages in the supermarkets. Tastes differ, I guess. :)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I will too:
:lol2:

belarusnews, how many years have you studied after the high school?

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Not all the universities in Belarus have the following system: Bachelors degree (4 years), master's (6 years).

The majority of universities provide 5-year studies and the graduates are called "young specialists".

After school I studied 5 years at the University.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling. ;)
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

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Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

After school I studied 5 years at the University.

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That's exactly what I thought. So, your education is roughly comparable to the master's degree.

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Originally Posted by belarusnews

Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

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So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life. ;)

What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life. ;)

What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

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Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them.

And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them.

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Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

I got a completely free education (didn't pay for it). Including a top boarding school (practically free) and 4 years of university (including a monthly stipend to live off).

I would have thought it reasonable if the state had asked me to take on an assignment in a designated role for a couple of years after that. In fact, it's a good way for new graduates to get experience without having to apply for jobs on the open market. I don't see a problem with this at all.

In my case, I promptly left the country that sponsored my education.... and became a contributor to the British economy and a tax payer there! Pretty bad, but I didn't consider that, at the time.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

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If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

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If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

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I do not actually care about what kind of job a person gets. What matters is his/her actual free will to take that job and start working. What about improvements... if the state either starts providing everyone (passed certain tests or whatever) with real free education (without payments or compulsory working off afterwards) OR removes this fake form of free education and stops declaring it has free education of any kind, I would consider that an improvement...

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

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Where is forcing? If a person is unsatisfied with the placement they just pay the compensation and work wherever they want. If you break a contract you shall compensate it, shan't you?

I don't think any of us who don't live in Belarus need to tell the forum members from there what is good or bad in their country!
I am sure they are already well aware of that.

But personally I wish everyone there the best - And that doesn't necessarily involve 10 years of crazy cowboy capitalism like Russia and Ukraine had. Unless the Belarussians themselves (without external influence) decide that this is a price is worth paying in order to pave the way for a future market economy.

And I am not sure that any EU countries that allow "torture flights" to Guantamo, participate in the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns and export "execution drugs" to the US.... need to lecture Belarus about human rights. I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse".
I am sure there is some truth to the allegations. But there is clearly a smear campaign going on.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse".

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That sounds like you've been living there and know for sure what's going on.

To my mind, if there's just one person who lives there and confirms that human rights violation's taking place, that can be trusted.

Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост"
http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/

=)
Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
– Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
– 4 дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
– Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже если он пойдет на Москву.
– Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
(с)

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Originally Posted by BappaBa

Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост"
http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/

=)
Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
– Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
– 4 дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
– Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже если он пойдет на Москву.
– Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
(с)

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So, do I get it right, the Russian people are ready to take that "wise father" upon themselves to help the people of Belarus get rid of him? I think it's quite noble. Keep on!

немного запоздало, но все же
Белорусская деревня: TUT.BY | НОВОСТИ - Хроника исчезающей деревни: Марс 10 лет спустя - Калейдоскоп - 10.04.2011, 08:00

I suppose that unlovely lassie in Hanna's video would prefer the constitution to be amended to allow Lukashenko to be made president for life like some banana republic African dictator, then they could save themselves the expense of having elections at all! Who do you think are the likely culprits for the Minsk metro bomb?