Thread: Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I would also put it this way: there are really a lot of countries across the world where people are being spied on, and have no basic human rights; that dude, however, chose the U.S. for his "great mission" which makes him... well, an idiot

Didn't he want to open compatriots' eyes ? If we had such "dude" here in Russia, I would be sooooo happy.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I really think Russia should help out Snowden before it needs to come to that!

You see, Putin's position always was the real politics, not idealistic. Russia does not have messianic objectives in foreign policy to change the world to the best, to teach everybody freedom nor turn all peoples into any superior way of life. Russia works for its interests. Russian regime would like to have such PRISM for itself and Putin does not like to demonstrate obvious hypocrysy. So there are no ideological reasons of saving private hero Snowden.

On the other hand USA establishment for some reason looks really mad about that story. USA can go berserk like after Sep.11 ignoring common sense, violating laws, bombing and invading countries and killing people. So your bravery can cost you.

On the err... third hand US politicians traditionally use Russia as an enemy in their rhetorics and proved to be perfectly conservative in that no matter what happens outside US. So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized.

Всеми тремя руками "за"

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Didn't he want to open compatriots' eyes ? If we had such "dude" here in Russia, I would be sooooo happy.

The difference is that nobody has any illusions about Russia. Russia doesn't make itself out to be the perfect paragon for "freedom", liberty, democracy and all the rest.
America does! But the reality is the opposite.

I'd say all of Russia's "dirty laundry" is already out!
Regarding the past: All the dirt from the USSR came out during glasnost and in the 90s.

Perhaps there were people in the USSR before glasnost, who really believed propaganda and thought that the USSR was the most perfect country, more fair and righteous than all other. That's where most Americans are today, I think. They really believe their country is the best, when the truth is the opposite. They believe that the USA has the right to start any war it wants, and spy on anyone it wants.)

Regarding the present:

• All the modern day corruption in Russia and any conspiracies are discussed in the blogosphere, and reported in media in other countries.
• Russia is constantly accused in international media of starting wars it didn't start, discriminating against free speech, homosexuals and what not.
  Putin allegedly, has money in Switzerland etc. Many officials are corrupt.

So what is the big dirty secret about Russia that nobody knows? Everyone there is really an alien?

The difference is that the USA is claiming to speak for freedom, democracy and free speech. Russia isn't making any claims like that.

If anything, it seems to me, that many Russians are MORE suspicious and unhappy with their country than what's really called for. The 1990s just killed any drop of love they had for their country and now many are practically self-hating and imagine that anywhere else is better. You almost never see that with Americans, even though it wouldn't hurt if they got some perspective.

That's how it seems to ME from the outside. Maybe I'm wrong.

The 1990s just killed any drop of love they had for their country

Ну, подрастают новые патриоты, которые считают, что Россия - лучшее место в мире по определению. И они объединяются в серьёзные движения (movements?) Вот только выглядят они жутковато. Многие, как оказалось, кроме того что патриоты, ещё и националисты.

Russia could, if it wanted, do any number of things that would solve Snowden's problem.

For example fix up a new identity, change his looks so nobody would recognise him, and help Snowden get to some other country, bordering Russia, or anything really.

But I suppose this doesn't actually bother Russia very much, since Snowden seems to have ended up in Russia almost accidentally and probably never offered Russia any of his information.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You see, Putin's position always was the real politics, not idealistic. Russia does not have messianic objectives in foreign policy to change the world to the best, to teach everybody freedom nor turn all peoples into any superior way of life. Russia works for its interests. Russian regime would like to have such PRISM for itself and Putin does not like to demonstrate obvious hypocrysy. So there are no ideological reasons of saving private hero Snowden.

On the other hand USA establishment for some reason looks really mad about that story. USA can go berserk like after Sep.11 ignoring common sense, violating laws, bombing and invading countries and killing people. So your bravery can cost you.

On the err... third hand US politicians traditionally use Russia as an enemy in their rhetorics and proved to be perfectly conservative in that no matter what happens outside US. So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized.

Yeah, this is a very interesting observation. You are probably right!
Sadly, if Russia can't help Snowden to reach safety, who will?

The NSA leaks is the biggest story of the decade so far, I think. At least for us in Europe and America.

This entire case looks like a joke. No one has even seen him after he has arrived to Moscow. And the most ridiculous are Putin's comments. I've lost respect to him long ago but now he acts really foolish imho. It's not his duty to comment such things.

Originally Posted by Basil77

This entire case looks like a joke. No one has even seen him after he has arrived to Moscow. And the most ridiculous are Putin's comments. I've lost respect to him long ago but now he acts really foolish imho. It's not his duty to comment such things.

That's correct. He's telling him (through the media) his best option etc. What a weak President. IT-ogo says:

"So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized."

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

It's not about 'your politics vs their politics' but going through the process. LOOK AT HIS APPLICATION. Go through the motions of an asylum case. But, these countries are not doing so. Russia is not doing so. I really wonder whether those alleged European countries denied air space (to Bolivia or whoever was inviting Snowden to fly there). That should be news. That should be investigated. I am not sure why more people aren't alarmed. Other than the morons who replied and 'defended Putin and the USA', I am not sure how many people are absolutely clueless and oblivious on this issue. It's really dangerous and scary when one nation dictates what others must do. To the point of controlling air space! OMG! That is major.

There's more to the story, too. I read on the radio about various politicians and Americans of influence interfering with other countries' asylum procedures and policies. That is, telling countries to 'back off' etc. These Americans also violated laws by insinuating he would have no due process and others suggested he is a traitor. Joe Biden asked Ecuador to decline Snowden's asylum request. To say this is unethical is an understatement. How do you say a country is sovereign when this is going on?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA And that everybody's duty is to stand up to it. Ignorance and self praise.

Originally Posted by Doomer

As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA And that everybody's duty is to stand up to it. Ignorance and self praise.

"As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA "
Who are you talking about? I notice you didn't respond to the points/arguments. See, that's one reason I decided to ignore your comments. But, I'll point out the reason.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is.

It seems that the one of yours is much better. Why wouldn't you rely on him then?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's correct. He's telling him (through the media) his best option etc. What a weak President. IT-ogo says:

"So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized."

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

It's not about 'your politics vs their politics' but going through the process. LOOK AT HIS APPLICATION. Go through the motions of an asylum case. But, these countries are not doing so. Russia is not doing so. I really wonder whether those alleged European countries denied air space (to Bolivia or whoever was inviting Snowden to fly there). That should be news. That should be investigated. I am not sure why more people aren't alarmed. Other than the morons who replied and 'defended Putin and the USA', I am not sure how many people are absolutely clueless and oblivious on this issue. It's really dangerous and scary when one nation dictates what others must do. To the point of controlling air space! OMG! That is major.

There's more to the story, too. I read on the radio about various politicians and Americans of influence interfering with other countries' asylum procedures and policies. That is, telling countries to 'back off' etc. These Americans also violated laws by insinuating he would have no due process and others suggested he is a traitor. Joe Biden asked Ecuador to decline Snowden's asylum request. To say this is unethical is an understatement. How do you say a country is sovereign when this is going on?

Why would one need to stand up to the U.S. in the first place? =)

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I read on the radio...

You do now? Is it a braille radio

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

It seems that the one of yours is much better. Why wouldn't you rely on him then?

Even in Canada:
How the Canadian government can spy on your online activities | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

But, Americans (here) and many Russians don't care, apparently. I guess there's stupid people everywhere.

Ex CIA officer Edward Snowden it's a dangerous “gift” from the China. If Russia extradites Snowden that's show one's weakness, if not — that means open quarrel with the United States.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Ex CIA officer Edward Snowden it's a dangerous “gift” from the China. If Russia extradites Snowden that's show one's weakness, if not — that means open quarrel with the United States.

So, what in your opinion should happen now?

Ничего. Вот оно геополитическое дзюдо Путина во всей красе:
1. Мы не собираемся выдавать Сноудена, потому что Россия никогда никому никого не выдает, и потому что Сноуден — правозащитник, а наши правозащитники просят его поддержать. То есть в отличие от Европы, мы не станем тупо следовать инструкциям Вашингтона.
2. Наши спецслужбы с ним не работают. То есть Сноуден — «правозащитник» и менять его статус на «спецагента» мы не будем.
3. Оставить его у себя мы можем, если он «прекратит свою работу, направленную на то, чтобы наносить ущерб нашим американским партнерам». То есть столкнуть лбами Россию и США у Китая не получится. В свою очередь у США не получилось надавить на Россию. А Россия сохранила лицо.

...А еще Сноуден не может покинуть Москву, так как документы, имеющиеся у него, недействительны.

Lenta.ru:

Originally Posted by 14Russian

But, Americans (here) and many Russians don't care, apparently. I guess there's stupid people everywhere.

It's not that we are stupid... it's just that we have known about this for years. It really isn't news. If you live in or around the Washington, D.C. area or NY City especially, then you know that spying is a way of life and it is not just the Americans who spy. "In that building over there, the Russians rent our offices to listen to the folks who work in that building over there. And in that building over there you have the XXX, who listen to the people work in this building over there. Oh, and when this building was built, the xxx, bought out an entire floor just so they could try and listen to the folks down the road, so a little while later, the other folks bought the building, evicted everyone and now it sits empty."

You know that if you have a family member who works for an alphabet agency that your home phone may be tapped so don't have any family fights on them because it is embarrassing to the employee.

You know that your emails are being scanned for buzz words to see if you know things you shouldn't.

And this was all long before FaceBook where people willingly put their personal information and the government agencies now look to find things out. FaceBook is now their Town Crier or Gladys Kravitz.




But you say wait a minute, what about people who don't live in those area or work for government agencies... Well, if they work for a public company then they too are used to having their emails, voice mails, company cell phone, and pretty much anything else scanned, recorded, read and listened to thanks to Sarbanes Oxley.

So, Mr. Snowden is not some hero in our eyes, he is a contract employee he who broke his contract. He signed agreements not to divulge the classified information he might see and he did.

Other countries already know that we spy on them, because, oh my, they spy on us. And other countries know that we spy on our people because, on my, they do the same to their people.

We see him like the kid in school who raises his hand at the end of class to remind the teacher that she didn't give any homework. The entire class knows that the teacher didn't give out any homework, the teacher knows she didn't give out any homework and everyone is fine with that. The bell is going to ring and everyone can have a well needed night off from homework and grading papers and such... but no... Mr. Snowden just has to go and raise his hand to say "Teacher, what about the homework???"

This is why no one wants Mr. Snowden.