Thread: Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Why Edward Snowden Is a Hero : The New Yorker

No spying?!? LOL! I've read stuff from you on here before. I don't care if Baldy agrees with you. I don't have time to argue.

I'm glad that there's a lot of Americans who are against this - it shows how much they're hypocrites and proves I'm right about how the sheep tolerate anything their Government does.

Well -- Americans may have a lot of media to choose from, but 95% and the most accessible media is giving the "mainstream", gov't supported line.
The majority of people will eventually fall for it.

So although they may have initially been shocked at the relevations, the campaign immediately started to:

1) Justify the NSA spying "It's protection against evil terrrorists who HATE FREEDOM and the American way of life... and pedophiles, do you support them....?"

2) Focus on the person of Edward Snowden, rather than the issue: I.e. "He abandoned his girlfriend who is good-looking and a dancer!" "He said XYZ in an IT forum 5 years ago", "He is just after the attention", "He's got mental health issues"..... I.e. blackpainting and general distraction from the actual topic.

3) Insinuating that "Putin is involved", "Russia is playing games and needs to be taught a lesson..." and generally using their ex arch enemy's completely incidental involvement as a distraction from the real topic.


So after a month of this, most people are duly distracted by the above point, concerned about appearing un-patriotic...

It's also very easy to hoodwink non-technical people on this technical topic. Making it sound less serious that it actually is.
The actual technology behind it, and the potential implication of this amount of spying is simply not within most people's grasp, from a technical perspective.

That's why this is so HUGE in the IT world where I work. Most people DO understand how truly sinister it is, and the absolutely mind-blowing implications. But for non-technical people it's understandable that it is hard to actually understand the problem.

They are building huge data centres inside mountains for this, for goodness sake. The scope is incomprehensible. They want ALL data, from EVERYONE.
It's a combination of the worst spying thriller and the most spooky dystopian sci-fi you can imagine.
Right now they can't decrypt and cross reference everything. But give it a few years, and they'll be able to use this data to pull out a full profile on anyone. Everything from their shopping habits, social life to political views.... Stasi (to mention this classic example of a spying org) couldn't have dreamt of this and they might actually have had ethical reservations about it... But not so in the USA!


Propaganda at its best, using "free" press... Most people don't see it happening.

Snowden did Americans a big, big favour at a huge price to himself, but sadly most Americans (just as he fears) are not in a position to appreciate it. Only somebody who seeks out alternative news sources and has the technical background to follow it, will be able to see the full picture.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well -- Americans may have a lot of media to choose from, but 95% and the most accessible media is giving the "mainstream", gov't supported line.
The majority of people will eventually fall for it.

Actually, public opinion in the US has swung in favor of Edward Snowden. There were a lot of people calling him a traitor in the beginning, but as more information came out and it became clear just how vast the scope of government surveillance truly is, more people started calling him a hero. And these days, the majority of Americans already KNOW that the mainstream media is bullshit. There has been a rise of alternative news sources and citizen journalism, which on the one hand I applaud, but at the same time it also gives rise to a lot of conspiracy theories and fake news stories which garner more attention than they should.

Most of the people I know are like me - they gather their news from a variety of sources both foreign and domestic. In that way, we can deduce what is true and what is not true.

Poll: Americans say Snowden isn’t a traitor — MSNBC

Approximately 55% of American voters view Snowden as a “whistle-blower,” according to new Quinnipiac University poll. Only 34% consider him a “traitor” for revealing details on two of the nation’s top secret surveillance programs.

A majority view him as a whistle-blower in every subgroup–political party, gender, income, education, and age–except for African -American voters, among whom 43% call him a traitor and 42% a whistle-blower.

Researchers also spotted a “massive swing in public opinion” when it comes to how the public feels about spying programs in relation to civil liberties. Now, 45% of voters say the government goes way too far restricting civil liberties in regard to its anti-terrorism efforts. That’s a big switch from 2010 when 63% felt the government didn’t go far enough in its efforts to protect the country from terrorists.

It is clear that Snowden's revelations have also succeeded in getting people TALKING more about the police state we live in here. It isn't just the extremists talking about it either, now it has become a mainstream discussion. Everyone I know is talking about it, and everyone I know agrees that the NSA has gone too far.

Any of you guys seen this? --> https://twitter.com/SnowdensSeat

That's the funniest and most worthy thing I've learned about that guy, all the rest seems to be a time wasting blah-blah-blah...

Originally Posted by Hanna

I really think Russia should help out Snowden before it needs to come to that!

You see, Putin's position always was the real politics, not idealistic. Russia does not have messianic objectives in foreign policy to change the world to the best, to teach everybody freedom nor turn all peoples into any superior way of life. Russia works for its interests. Russian regime would like to have such PRISM for itself and Putin does not like to demonstrate obvious hypocrysy. So there are no ideological reasons of saving private hero Snowden.

On the other hand USA establishment for some reason looks really mad about that story. USA can go berserk like after Sep.11 ignoring common sense, violating laws, bombing and invading countries and killing people. So your bravery can cost you.

On the err... third hand US politicians traditionally use Russia as an enemy in their rhetorics and proved to be perfectly conservative in that no matter what happens outside US. So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You see, Putin's position always was the real politics, not idealistic. Russia does not have messianic objectives in foreign policy to change the world to the best, to teach everybody freedom nor turn all peoples into any superior way of life. Russia works for its interests. Russian regime would like to have such PRISM for itself and Putin does not like to demonstrate obvious hypocrysy. So there are no ideological reasons of saving private hero Snowden.

On the other hand USA establishment for some reason looks really mad about that story. USA can go berserk like after Sep.11 ignoring common sense, violating laws, bombing and invading countries and killing people. So your bravery can cost you.

On the err... third hand US politicians traditionally use Russia as an enemy in their rhetorics and proved to be perfectly conservative in that no matter what happens outside US. So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized.

Yeah, this is a very interesting observation. You are probably right!
Sadly, if Russia can't help Snowden to reach safety, who will?

The NSA leaks is the biggest story of the decade so far, I think. At least for us in Europe and America.

Всеми тремя руками "за"

The 1990s just killed any drop of love they had for their country

Ну, подрастают новые патриоты, которые считают, что Россия - лучшее место в мире по определению. И они объединяются в серьёзные движения (movements?) Вот только выглядят они жутковато. Многие, как оказалось, кроме того что патриоты, ещё и националисты.

Russia could, if it wanted, do any number of things that would solve Snowden's problem.

For example fix up a new identity, change his looks so nobody would recognise him, and help Snowden get to some other country, bordering Russia, or anything really.

But I suppose this doesn't actually bother Russia very much, since Snowden seems to have ended up in Russia almost accidentally and probably never offered Russia any of his information.

This entire case looks like a joke. No one has even seen him after he has arrived to Moscow. And the most ridiculous are Putin's comments. I've lost respect to him long ago but now he acts really foolish imho. It's not his duty to comment such things.

Originally Posted by Basil77

This entire case looks like a joke. No one has even seen him after he has arrived to Moscow. And the most ridiculous are Putin's comments. I've lost respect to him long ago but now he acts really foolish imho. It's not his duty to comment such things.

That's correct. He's telling him (through the media) his best option etc. What a weak President. IT-ogo says:

"So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized."

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

It's not about 'your politics vs their politics' but going through the process. LOOK AT HIS APPLICATION. Go through the motions of an asylum case. But, these countries are not doing so. Russia is not doing so. I really wonder whether those alleged European countries denied air space (to Bolivia or whoever was inviting Snowden to fly there). That should be news. That should be investigated. I am not sure why more people aren't alarmed. Other than the morons who replied and 'defended Putin and the USA', I am not sure how many people are absolutely clueless and oblivious on this issue. It's really dangerous and scary when one nation dictates what others must do. To the point of controlling air space! OMG! That is major.

There's more to the story, too. I read on the radio about various politicians and Americans of influence interfering with other countries' asylum procedures and policies. That is, telling countries to 'back off' etc. These Americans also violated laws by insinuating he would have no due process and others suggested he is a traitor. Joe Biden asked Ecuador to decline Snowden's asylum request. To say this is unethical is an understatement. How do you say a country is sovereign when this is going on?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA And that everybody's duty is to stand up to it. Ignorance and self praise.

Originally Posted by Doomer

As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA And that everybody's duty is to stand up to it. Ignorance and self praise.

"As usual our fellow American thinks that world turns around the USA "
Who are you talking about? I notice you didn't respond to the points/arguments. See, that's one reason I decided to ignore your comments. But, I'll point out the reason.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's correct. He's telling him (through the media) his best option etc. What a weak President. IT-ogo says:

"So Russian diplomacy with US plays a bad baby who gets candies from time to time for each while of being obedient. Now Russia plays naughty but not naughty enough to get brutalized."

That's about it in a nutshell. I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is. Stand up to the USA? LOL A few Latin countries are trying but Putin does nothing but at least he hosted him in an airport.

It's not about 'your politics vs their politics' but going through the process. LOOK AT HIS APPLICATION. Go through the motions of an asylum case. But, these countries are not doing so. Russia is not doing so. I really wonder whether those alleged European countries denied air space (to Bolivia or whoever was inviting Snowden to fly there). That should be news. That should be investigated. I am not sure why more people aren't alarmed. Other than the morons who replied and 'defended Putin and the USA', I am not sure how many people are absolutely clueless and oblivious on this issue. It's really dangerous and scary when one nation dictates what others must do. To the point of controlling air space! OMG! That is major.

There's more to the story, too. I read on the radio about various politicians and Americans of influence interfering with other countries' asylum procedures and policies. That is, telling countries to 'back off' etc. These Americans also violated laws by insinuating he would have no due process and others suggested he is a traitor. Joe Biden asked Ecuador to decline Snowden's asylum request. To say this is unethical is an understatement. How do you say a country is sovereign when this is going on?

Why would one need to stand up to the U.S. in the first place? =)

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I read on the radio...

You do now? Is it a braille radio

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I just hope all Russians can remember from now on how weak and hypocritical their President is.

It seems that the one of yours is much better. Why wouldn't you rely on him then?

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

It seems that the one of yours is much better. Why wouldn't you rely on him then?

Even in Canada:
How the Canadian government can spy on your online activities | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

But, Americans (here) and many Russians don't care, apparently. I guess there's stupid people everywhere.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

But, Americans (here) and many Russians don't care, apparently. I guess there's stupid people everywhere.

It's not that we are stupid... it's just that we have known about this for years. It really isn't news. If you live in or around the Washington, D.C. area or NY City especially, then you know that spying is a way of life and it is not just the Americans who spy. "In that building over there, the Russians rent our offices to listen to the folks who work in that building over there. And in that building over there you have the XXX, who listen to the people work in this building over there. Oh, and when this building was built, the xxx, bought out an entire floor just so they could try and listen to the folks down the road, so a little while later, the other folks bought the building, evicted everyone and now it sits empty."

You know that if you have a family member who works for an alphabet agency that your home phone may be tapped so don't have any family fights on them because it is embarrassing to the employee.

You know that your emails are being scanned for buzz words to see if you know things you shouldn't.

And this was all long before FaceBook where people willingly put their personal information and the government agencies now look to find things out. FaceBook is now their Town Crier or Gladys Kravitz.




But you say wait a minute, what about people who don't live in those area or work for government agencies... Well, if they work for a public company then they too are used to having their emails, voice mails, company cell phone, and pretty much anything else scanned, recorded, read and listened to thanks to Sarbanes Oxley.

So, Mr. Snowden is not some hero in our eyes, he is a contract employee he who broke his contract. He signed agreements not to divulge the classified information he might see and he did.

Other countries already know that we spy on them, because, oh my, they spy on us. And other countries know that we spy on our people because, on my, they do the same to their people.

We see him like the kid in school who raises his hand at the end of class to remind the teacher that she didn't give any homework. The entire class knows that the teacher didn't give out any homework, the teacher knows she didn't give out any homework and everyone is fine with that. The bell is going to ring and everyone can have a well needed night off from homework and grading papers and such... but no... Mr. Snowden just has to go and raise his hand to say "Teacher, what about the homework???"

This is why no one wants Mr. Snowden.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

***It's not that we are stupid...***
This is why no one wants Mr. Snowden.

Yes, it is. You just demostrated evidence of it, thank you. So, you are saying Americans are justified in the attitude, 'everyone knows there's spying so it's okay or we can accept/tolerate it.' LOL! Well, that is a new perspective I haven't seen too often so congratulations. That's a stupid attitude. I never said Snowden is a hero. One can debate that but he tried to give details on how *pervasive' and serious it is with details. Instead of people just 'assuming' they're being spied on, he brought the subject into the public eye more than before. He sacrificed his safety and livelihood to 'tell people' and hopefully, wake them up. Unfortunately, he didn't realize how many stupid and oblivious people there are. Even when they're smacked on the head with the revelations, people not only overlook it but call him a 'traitor.' LOL! Unreal.
Edit: Also, Snowden showed that the American Government has violated the Constitution among other things and no one with a rational mind would consider his 'contract' allowing that.
Snowden is 'not being accepted' (as you put it) by other countries because they are in bed with the U.S. Government and the U.S. has intimidated other countries to not grant him the request.
I'm not surprised the mod liked your comment. It's typical of this site whenever the topic is politics.

Russian 14... you are the one who doesn't seem to understand that:

1. Anyone with a FaceBook account or using any sort of Android product has already given up on their privacy long ago. We sold our souls to the devils on those technologies and they know more about us than our own families do and ever will. "Here, want a great calendar App that will help organize your life and your families too?... Wonderful, now we know all of your doctors appointments, that little Suzi does tumbling, and little Jimmy plays the trombone, and you had your mammogram done last week and that two weeks from now you plan on divorcing your hubby and he doesn't know it yet."

2. Children today know from early school age that you in order to obtain any sort of account, be it a school based IT account or a job, you must sign a Computer and Internet Use Policy Form. Once you sign that form, your emails, web movement, anything electronic at work/school is no longer private. Every key stroke and document is recorded and stored and can be reviewed at anytime without your permission.

So, it is not a case where Mr. Snowden brought to light anything really new or different about what is already happening in our society. We are not oblivious to it. Maybe you just randomly click on TOS agreements or sign legal contacts and policies. Maybe it is you who has been oblivious to it all and that is why you are so upset over all of this?

Oh and Russian 14... I can write this post and have a passionate debate all without resorting to name calling and maybe that is part of the reason Lampada liked my post....hmmmm?